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#1715396 - 07/17/11 11:51 PM Re: Super Natural Piano on Roland RD-700NX [Re: dewster]
Hideki Matsui Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 787
The JP 80 is getting bashed for so many reasons on virtually every synth board. The name, the price, the lack of this and that and definitely the price.

I played one today. It is an odd board in today's market. Some very nice sounds and articulations on the acoustic instruments, but a very limited board for the price. It definitely won't replace a V-synth. It is more for a live player who needs to sub for all sorts of instruments or wants the perfect sound to play "Jump." Semi weighted synth action pretty much kills the piano and EP playing for me.



Edited by Hideki Matsui (07/17/11 11:55 PM)
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#1715414 - 07/18/11 12:46 AM Re: Super Natural Piano on Roland RD-700NX [Re: Hideki Matsui]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 1731
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
I was among many of the guys in the early 80's, in LA (and of course everywhere) , to use the original JP8.

At that time , that was the most I'd ever spent on a synth. That was until the Kurzweil K2000 came along.

The standard keyboard rig around town at that time was a Rhodes with either the JP8, Prophet V or Oberheim OBX/OBXA/etc. on top. The JP8 was the most popular though. The thing I remember most about it was the fact it was always in tune with itself. The P-V and Obie---forget it. If the power in the club fluctuated the least bit, those oscillators would be constantly out of tune with each other. You'd be tuning in the middle of a song..

For the time the JP8 was a great synth but a beast to move in a flight case.

As soon as the DX7 hit though, the JP8 and all the other analogs were as popular as giant, oversized SUVs at the height of the peak gas prices.

I recall putting my JP8 up for sale on LA's popular free classified paper--"The Recycler". There most have been at least a dozen JP8s on there, all selling for about half of what people paid. I remember taking a huge bath on it. frown

I'm not at all into the multi-keyboard scene anymore, but if I were doing those kind of gigs, I'd think a Kronos 73/88 with the JP80 as a top board would pretty much cover anything in most popular genres.
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#1715432 - 07/18/11 01:37 AM Re: Super Natural Piano on Roland RD-700NX [Re: Dave Ferris]
Hideki Matsui Offline
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Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 787
I think many of the JP8 guys are the ones who are most upset about the JP80 carrying the Jupiter name.

After playing it today, I didn't think it would really add much to a rig based around any of the popular workstations. It does have some nice articulations of acoustic instruments, but that is the only thing that stood out to me. Even then, I think without the ability to apply articulations to different waveforms, it isn't interesting to synth guys and will appeal to a limited market of players. I would be interested in a rack version, weighted key version or workstation based around the new SN sounds.

Roland is having their JP80 presentation at Guitar Centers this week. Each GC has a scheduled date if anyone is interested.
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#1715440 - 07/18/11 02:02 AM Re: Super Natural Piano on Roland RD-700NX [Re: Hideki Matsui]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Loc: Glendale, Ca.
The strings on the JP8 were unparalleled at that time on a keyboard. Almost every pop record in addition to many film soundtracks out of LA in the '80s used them till the DX7 hit.. The brass was the Prophet's strong suit and if you really used a lot of pads, you'd get the Oberheim.

The Roland had a sound that in a way was a pre-cursor to digital---in your face and hi-fi. More so then any analog synth at the time. Really well built, always in tune and a huge sound.
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#1715679 - 07/18/11 12:45 PM Re: Super Natural Piano on Roland RD-700NX [Re: Dave Horne]
dewster Offline
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Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ


I really don't care what they want to call it, that JP 80 seems like a lot of fun!

All SN to hear them talk. I sincerely wish the voices in our RD-700NX were all SN.

The nylon guitar sounds a little fake on the upper end, but the trumpet sounds pretty real. The cello sounds nice too.

I wish Roland would drop this crazy body design, I'd rather have something shorter and more box shaped, like the CP33.
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#1715683 - 07/18/11 12:54 PM Re: Super Natural Piano on Roland RD-700NX [Re: dewster]
Hideki Matsui Offline
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Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 787
It is fun if you want to do trumpet and violin solos and love synth actions. Outside of that you can have much more fun on number of boards out there. The V-synth is more fun if you like playing with articulations.

SN seems to have a different meaning than it does for the APs and EPs because I would hope the APs and EPs aren't trying to articulate piano technique for the player.

I actually liked the physical design, but Im not willing to pay $3500 for that.


Edited by Hideki Matsui (07/18/11 01:01 PM)
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#1715688 - 07/18/11 01:01 PM Re: Super Natural Piano on Roland RD-700NX [Re: dewster]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 1731
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
Originally Posted By: dewster


I really don't care what they want to call it, that JP 80 seems like a lot of fun!

.


It does seem like a lot of fun. If I were rich, I might buy one just to mess around on after practicing the piano all day... smile

Here are couple of other vids that show it off:





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#1715695 - 07/18/11 01:05 PM Re: Super Natural Piano on Roland RD-700NX [Re: Dave Ferris]
Hideki Matsui Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 787
I have seen all those videos. The guy in the first video made a video that inspired me to buy the V-synth. Howard Jones seems like he wishes he was playing his JP8.

I'm going to the GC demo so I can get a better perspective on the board. I had hoped it would replace my V synth but the Jupiter just can't do many of the things the V does.


Edited by Hideki Matsui (07/18/11 01:12 PM)
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#1715707 - 07/18/11 01:25 PM Re: Super Natural Piano on Roland RD-700NX [Re: Dave Ferris]
dewster Offline
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Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris
Here are couple of other vids that show it off:

Wow, thanks!
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#1715710 - 07/18/11 01:28 PM Re: Super Natural Piano on Roland RD-700NX [Re: dewster]
Hideki Matsui Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 787
Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris
Here are couple of other vids that show it off:

Wow, thanks!


Really, that made you say "wow"?
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#1715714 - 07/18/11 01:32 PM Re: Super Natural Piano on Roland RD-700NX [Re: Hideki Matsui]
dewster Offline
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Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Hideki Matsui
Really, that made you say "wow"?

We've owned several synths including the Yamaha FS1R, AN1x, Motif ES rack; Korg Wavestation SR, and Waldorf MicroQ. The big disappointment for me in all the ones that use samples has been the low quality of said samples, so SN in that role would be very welcome.
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#1715724 - 07/18/11 01:50 PM Re: Super Natural Piano on Roland RD-700NX [Re: dewster]
Hideki Matsui Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 787
Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: Hideki Matsui
Really, that made you say "wow"?

We've owned several synths including the Yamaha FS1R, AN1x, Motif ES rack; Korg Wavestation SR, and Waldorf MicroQ. The big disappointment for me in all the ones that use samples has been the low quality of said samples, so SN in that role would be very welcome.


I have owned a bunch of synths too. SN alone isn't going to guarantee a good sound. Listen to the EPs and guitars.

The only area where I found the JP to be exceptional was the trumpet and violin patch and the articulations associated with those patches. Nevertheless, it definitely didn't get me anywhere close to wow.


Edited by Hideki Matsui (07/18/11 01:51 PM)
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#1715844 - 07/18/11 05:58 PM Re: Super Natural Piano on Roland RD-700NX [Re: Hideki Matsui]
dewster Offline
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Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Hideki Matsui
SN alone isn't going to guarantee a good sound. Listen to the EPs and guitars.

EPs are a matter of taste it seems, the SN ones in the NX sound pretty good to me (but I'm definitely not an EP connoisseur). Honestly, I'll take almost anything non-looped over almost anything looped as I find looping a total sound killer. YMMV.
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#1715894 - 07/18/11 07:31 PM Re: Super Natural Piano on Roland RD-700NX [Re: dewster]
Hideki Matsui Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 787
Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: Hideki Matsui
SN alone isn't going to guarantee a good sound. Listen to the EPs and guitars.

EPs are a matter of taste it seems, the SN ones in the NX sound pretty good to me (but I'm definitely not an EP connoisseur). Honestly, I'll take almost anything non-looped over almost anything looped as I find looping a total sound killer. YMMV.


You rarely hear about EP guys gushing about Roland EPs. They are ok, but when you want the kind of character you hear in 70s recordings, I don't think the SN EPs cut it. They sound more like they come from the 80s. I know things are always subjective, but when it comes to Roland EPs, I highly doubt they would be the choice of many EP focused guys.

I'm not sure if SN means the same thing for every instrument. I'm assuming it doesn't encompass articulations for the piano and EP sounds. I'm not sure if the absence of looping is the key defining characteristic of the SuperNatural term. What is a a Supernatural synth sound? Seems like an oxymoron.


Edited by Hideki Matsui (07/18/11 08:08 PM)
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#1716495 - 07/19/11 03:19 PM Re: Super Natural Piano on Roland RD-700NX [Re: Dave Horne]
Hideki Matsui Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 787
I'll be going to the clinic in a few hours. My GC rep called me and offered me a very good price on one to persuade me to take one home after the clinic. I'm not sure that will happen, but depending on what I find out about the synth section, it is a possibility.
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#1716856 - 07/19/11 11:56 PM Re: Super Natural Piano on Roland RD-700NX [Re: Hideki Matsui]
Hideki Matsui Offline
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Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 787
I met Scott Tibbs of Roland and he took the time to answer all of my questions. Really great guy.

I'll post a follow up and tell you what he told me about the SN label, the vision of Roland's founder and several other interesting topics.

For now I have to set up the Jupiter.



Edited by Hideki Matsui (07/20/11 01:26 AM)
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#1716947 - 07/20/11 02:32 AM Re: Super Natural Piano on Roland RD-700NX [Re: Hideki Matsui]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 1731
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
laugh Too funny!

Well it obviously *wowed* you to some extent. If you decide to sell it let me know. cool

And of course congrats. You're now the man of many keyboards.
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#1716960 - 07/20/11 03:01 AM Re: Super Natural Piano on Roland RD-700NX [Re: Dave Ferris]
Hideki Matsui Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 787
Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris
laugh Too funny!

Well it obviously *wowed* you to some extent. If you decide to sell it let me know. cool

And of course congrats. You're now the man of many keyboards.


Funny I know. I really didn't think I was going to go in and walk out with one, but I will be the first to admit my initial in store impressions were off base.

The pianos and EPs did not wow me. In fact when Scott played solo piano I kind of understood why Roland pianos don't sound right live. Several audience members were commenting that the pianos sounded muted. I definitely prefer the Kronos for those two key areas but do think the SN pianos sound good in recordings and at the home.

Other acoustic instruments like the trumpet and violin are by far the best I have heard, with the SN articulations adding much needed expression to these sounds. They introduced this on the V synth but it is really fully developed on the Jupiter.

The synth section is what really interested me, and it was out of this world.

The board is also set up ideally for live playing.

I'm trying to figure out which board I don't want, but they each serve such a different purpose so I'm kind of stumped. Kronos/Jupiter hybrid would be a perfect keyboard. The V-synth is really unique in functionality and I have had 2 Viruses. I take the Virus with me most of the time so I think I just need to make sure I don't buy another board and I'll be fine.

I was told that the Jupiter 80 is the most important product for the founder of Roland. It is the culmination of his original vision for Roland. I definitely see the vision in the Jupiter 80. I'm not sure if it will be a commercial success, but it is really a unique and compelling product once you get to understand what its about.


Edited by Hideki Matsui (07/20/11 03:38 AM)
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#1717039 - 07/20/11 07:32 AM Re: Super Natural Piano on Roland RD-700NX [Re: Dave Horne]
EssBrace Offline
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Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2405
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But most importantly, has Scott Tibbs still got his tragic ponytail?
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#1717098 - 07/20/11 09:40 AM Re: Super Natural Piano on Roland RD-700NX [Re: EssBrace]
Hideki Matsui Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 787
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
But most importantly, has Scott Tibbs still got his tragic ponytail?



Yes. He looks exactly as he does in the YouTube videos.
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#1717123 - 07/20/11 10:25 AM Re: Super Natural Piano on Roland RD-700NX [Re: Hideki Matsui]
Hideki Matsui Offline
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Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 787
I asked Scott specifically about the SuperNatural term and what it meant. Depending on the sound it can mean different things. My interpretation of Scott's answer is that it means they have identified and incorporated the elements of a sound that make it natural. Achieving natural sound through synthesis is the core of Ikutaro Kakehashi's vision.

The original Jupiter and today's Jupiter were both designed with the goal of emulating acoustic sounds through synthesis. The original Jupiter had much less success at doing that, but it sounded great nonetheless and people stopped thinking about it as an emulator. The SuperNatural term reflects that original and persisting goal of recreating natural sounds through synthesis.

For any given sound, SN means they have captured the natural sound of the instrument by focusing on the key elements that they believe are critical to producing a natural sound. Almost all of it is achieved through modeling. Scott indicated only the attack had sample elements. In all cases no velocity switching seems to be highlighted. For piano no looping in the decay is also key.

For other acoustic sounds like the violin, trumpet, etc. SN is focusing more on the natural articulation of the instruments, as that is the element that brings a more natural sound to those voices. Having experience with the articulations in the V-synth, I was very interested in this area. They greatly expanded the articulations, and there is no doubt this element makes a huge difference in the ability to use those sounds in an expressive way.

Finally, with the SN synth sounds, it is also referring to the articulations that you can incorporate, but it is really just referring to how much more expressive the new synth engine is and the quality of the new sounds. I'm not sure if SN really makes sense with the synths, but I can confirm that the quality of the synth sounds on the Jupiter are amazing and the primary reason I bought it.
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#1717127 - 07/20/11 10:30 AM Re: Super Natural Piano on Roland RD-700NX [Re: Dave Horne]
Kawai James Online   content
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Registered: 09/06/07
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Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Interesting stuff, thanks Hideki.

So in terms of SN piano sounds, the attack is sampled, and the decay is modelled.

Sounds good to me!

Cheers,
James
x
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#1717153 - 07/20/11 11:16 AM Re: Super Natural Piano on Roland RD-700NX [Re: Hideki Matsui]
dewster Offline
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Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Hideki Matsui
Other acoustic instruments like the trumpet and violin are by far the best I have heard, with the SN articulations adding much needed expression to these sounds. They introduced this on the V synth but it is really fully developed on the Jupiter.

SN plus articulations seems like a killer combo!

I really just want one very well done example of each standard string, brass, woodwind, etc. instrument in a synth like this: one trumpet (plus maybe a muted version), one harp, one violin, one nylon guitar, etc. Maybe two pianos and two harpsichords.

Are the drums SN?

Originally Posted By: Hideki Matsui
The synth section is what really interested me, and it was out of this world.

IMO, synths have been in the doldrums for quite a while now. Romplers and virtual analog bore me absolutely to tears. If I hear another low-pass filtered pulse waveform I'm going to hurl. I blame the retro movement.

Keyboards bore me too. New, innovative controllers are what I'd really like to see, but no large manufacturer will go there as they think the profit margins are too small. At this point we're lucky to even have the D-Beam to flail at at I suppose.
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#1717154 - 07/20/11 11:16 AM Re: Super Natural Piano on Roland RD-700NX [Re: Kawai James]
Hideki Matsui Offline
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Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 787
Up all night playing the Jupiter. It is a pretty incredible board.

When it comes to the critical area of pianos and EPs the Kronos is king in my book. The SN pianos are really nice too, but the Kronos pianos sound more organic. EPs are no contest, especially because editing of the EPs on the Jupiter is strangely limited.

I have to say in the other area of acoustic instruments the Kronos does not sound so great when played next to the Jupiter. From a player's perspective the addition of all the articulations and the quality of the sounds make a for a very different experience.

The synth section is the area that I'm sure will be of greatest debate, but it is the area that most impressed me. I can see why Scott thinks it is the best digital synth ever.

Honestly, I don't think I've ever had as much fun in the initial hours of owning a keyboard. Although a singular board would be great, I think the Kronos and Jupiter actually make quite the perfect pair.

On a sided note, I wish the Kronos was built with the quality of the Jupiter. I know it would increase the cost significantly, but having the two side by side is a pretty stark contrast in materials and construction.
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#1717162 - 07/20/11 11:26 AM Re: Super Natural Piano on Roland RD-700NX [Re: Kawai James]
dewster Offline
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Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
So in terms of SN piano sounds, the attack is sampled, and the decay is modelled.

This has long been my supposition. Certainly the first thing I would try were I designing a sampled/modeled digital piano.
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#1717163 - 07/20/11 11:28 AM Re: Super Natural Piano on Roland RD-700NX [Re: Hideki Matsui]
Hideki Matsui Offline
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Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 787
Dewster,

Apparently everything is SN.

For me, the Virus is a staple and really a synth that is great for learning about synthesis. It can take a lifetime to fully understand. The V-synth GT is one of the truly revolutionary synths and offers things no other synth does. The time pad was a great addition and Variphrase is a great sampling tool. Articulations were nicely introduced as well.

The Jupiter really takes sound quality and articuations of synth sounds to a new level. The massive layering and blending capabilities also make for the thickest sounds I have ever heard. The opening real time performance of the Tron theme was really impressive, even for the old guys.


Edited by Hideki Matsui (07/20/11 11:31 AM)
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#1717177 - 07/20/11 11:46 AM Re: Super Natural Piano on Roland RD-700NX [Re: Hideki Matsui]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Hideki Matsui
Up all night playing the Jupiter. It is a pretty incredible board. ... Honestly, I don't think I've ever had as much fun in the initial hours of owning a keyboard.

I'll take that as a "Wow!" wink
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#1717200 - 07/20/11 12:14 PM Re: Super Natural Piano on Roland RD-700NX [Re: dewster]
Hideki Matsui Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 787
Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: Hideki Matsui
Up all night playing the Jupiter. It is a pretty incredible board. ... Honestly, I don't think I've ever had as much fun in the initial hours of owning a keyboard.

I'll take that as a "Wow!" wink


Double wow. I'll eat my words twice on this one.
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#1717311 - 07/20/11 03:07 PM Re: Super Natural Piano on Roland RD-700NX [Re: Hideki Matsui]
dewster Offline
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Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Hideki Matsui
Apparently everything is SN.

The manuals are now up:
http://www.roland.com/products/en/_support/om.cfm?PRODUCT=JUPITER-80

Looking at the Owner's Manual and Parameter Guide, I don't see a tone list - strange.

If you feel like providing a DPBSD MP3, I'd gladly analyze the harpsichord voice - provided there is one and provided it doesn't sound too synthy.
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#1717318 - 07/20/11 03:16 PM Re: Super Natural Piano on Roland RD-700NX [Re: dewster]
Hideki Matsui Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 787
Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: Hideki Matsui
Apparently everything is SN.

The manuals are now up:
http://www.roland.com/products/en/_support/om.cfm?PRODUCT=JUPITER-80

Looking at the Owner's Manual and Parameter Guide, I don't see a tone list - strange.

If you feel like providing a DPBSD MP3, I'd gladly analyze the harpsichord voice - provided there is one and provided it doesn't sound too synthy.


I think the tone list is on one of the disks. I'll look for it.

Haven't found a harpsichord. Plenty of clavs, pianos and EPs. I don't need one but strange if it isn't here. I'll keep looking.


Edited by Hideki Matsui (07/20/11 03:17 PM)
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Staying in one position for too long - tension
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10/22/14 06:07 AM
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10/22/14 05:10 AM
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