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#1698360 - 06/19/11 09:55 PM
Yamaha AvantGrand a few facts
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500 Post Club Member
Registered: 09/14/03
Posts: 697
Loc: Irvington, NY
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In the previous AvantGrand thread, I mentioned that I had some intersting facts to share and asked people to speculate about what they might be. There were a few good guesses, but they were, unfortunately, obscured by the dust of discord that was kicked up by some folks who perhaps didn't quite get what I was after. No problem. We're all human and that's what humans do sometimes. Yours Truly is no exception, so I won't throw stones.
In any case, in the interest of being less of a tease than Frank, here are some facts that I sort of promised. Hopefully, they'll lead, finally, to a productive and fun discussion that might have meaning to us and maybe even to a wider audience.
1. The MSRP of the AvantGrand N2 is about $15,000; the MSRP of the U1 Silent is also about $15,000. Dealer profit on each is about the same, as is salesperson commission. They are both Yamaha products, so the manufacturer is indifferent as to which of the two models we sell. These are similarly attractive pianos that take up about the same amount of floor space. In the huge NY metro market, the N2 outsells the U1 Silent several times over. I can’t reveal just how many of these pianos we sell, but I can say that we sell enough of them so that no statistician would be concerned about inadequate sample size. There is no question but that the degree to which the N2 outsells the U1 Silent is highly significant – and I don’t need to run any sort of statistical analysis to know this. I have no knowledge of how N2 sales compare to U1 Silent sales in other markets but I probably could find out.
2. The MSRP of the AvantGrand N3 is about $20,000; the MSRP of the GB1KS (baby grand with silent capability) is about $28,000. However, the spread between the actual selling prices is much less than $8,000. Regardless, the N3 does have some price advantage over the GB1KS. The N3 and the GB1KS are both Yamaha products, so the manufacturer is indifferent as to which of the two models we sell; we make about the same margins and pay the same sales commissions on each, so we and our salespeople are also indifferent as to which of the two models we sell. The GB1KS is a very traditional looking five-foot baby grand. The N3 is a modernistic looking, under four-foot mini grand. In the NY metro area, the N3 outsells the GB1KS several times over and, as with the N2 vs U1 Silent comparison, there is no question about the significance of the difference. As with the N2’s and U1 Silents, I don’t know about sales in other markets but I probably could find out.
3. Music schools are very interested in the AvantGrands. We’re in the midst of negotiating sales to several.
Based on many of the recent posts to PW on the topic of the AvantGrand, these facts are probably surprising to at least some of you, so you probably would like some explanations. I’m prepared to provide my best guesses (based on my observations of and discussions with customers, salespeople, pianists and educators), but it would hardly be fun of I did this right away. I’ll chime in soon enough – surely before Frank tells us the serial number of his new matte ebony Estonia 190.
_________________________
Irving Faust Harrison Pianos We sell new Bechsteins, Yamahas, Mason & Hamlins, Brodmanns and W. Hoffmanns, and rebuilt vintage Steinways. All rebuilding is done in our own factory. www.faustharrisonpianos.com
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#1698407 - 06/19/11 11:45 PM
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand a few facts
[Re: irving]
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1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 04/16/06
Posts: 1925
Loc: Belgium
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About the N2: They are both Yamaha products, so the manufacturer is indifferent as to which of the two models we sell. About the N3: The N3 and the GB1KS are both Yamaha products, so the manufacturer is indifferent as to which of the two models we sell As a Yamaha dealer you might be indifferent as to which of the two models (in both the above cases) you sell as MRSP/dealer margin/commission are the same but that does not prove Yamaha as a manufacturere is indifferent to that. As the dealer margin on the MRSP is the same in both cases indeed the wholesale price must be the same but this does not say us anything about the manufacturer's profit margin as we do not know anything about the cost structure in between the wholesale price and the cost of sale (manufacturing) price! My speculation here is that it does matter for Yamaha and that they are better off with an AvantGrand sale, even that in the long run the hybrids will replace the silents as a range at least that this would be Yamaha's ultimate goal. schwammerl.
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#1698412 - 06/19/11 11:59 PM
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand a few facts
[Re: irving]
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2000 Post Club Member
Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 2084
Loc: USA
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That's very interseting! Out here in the boonies the only AG model on display is the N3. No silent series, just traditional uprights and grands. Maybe there's a Disklavier but I didn't notice.
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#1698446 - 06/20/11 02:20 AM
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand a few facts
[Re: irving]
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6000 Post Club Member
Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 6739
Loc: torrance, CA
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I don’t know about sales in other markets but I probably could find out. I would doubt that there's a significant difference in other US markets. Most retailers don't even stock silent series. If silents can't make a dent in NYC where high-income groups live in cramped close quarters, they're not going to make a dent in other US markets. 3 questionsDo you stock the silent U1? Have one on the floor now? Do you stock the GB1 silent? Have one on the floor now? Do you really live in a place called Irvington? My compliments on your cold dispassionate presentation of your facts. No Vive la difference! this time around. 
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#1698452 - 06/20/11 02:57 AM
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand a few facts
[Re: turandot]
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1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 04/16/06
Posts: 1925
Loc: Belgium
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If silents can't make a dent in NYC where high-income groups live in cramped close quarters, they're not going to make a dent in other US markets.
Yes indeed, also not overwhelming in Europe - certainly not the silent grands - though I guess slightly better than in the US though. However this brings me to the following question. If, as Irving stated, both the N2 and N3 outsell their silent counter parts but if at the same time the silent pianos do not make a dent, the sales of the AvantGrand series will still not be a big success! Let take an example where a dealership sells 2 silent pianos per year and now the AvantGrand outsells this by a factor 3, he will then sell 6 AvantGrands per year, which for a big dealership is nothing to be excited about!? schwammerl.
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#1698463 - 06/20/11 03:51 AM
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand a few facts
[Re: irving]
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3000 Post Club Member
Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 3993
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
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Music schools are very interested in the AvantGrands. We’re in the midst of negotiating sales to several.
Based on many of the recent posts to PW on the topic of the AvantGrand, these facts are probably surprising to at least some of you, so you probably would like some explanations. I’m prepared to provide my best guesses (based on my observations of and discussions with customers, salespeople, pianists and educators), but it would hardly be fun of I did this right away.Irving, I'm not surprised.  If you wait too long to share your information the fun factor might be drowned out by the acrimony and fatigue factor.  What I would be interested in is knowing the sales to restaurants, hotels and churches (in addition to the sales to your typical home owner). How are those sales going ... and why can't you reveal the number of AvantGrands you're selling?
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#1698473 - 06/20/11 04:36 AM
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand a few facts
[Re: Dave Horne]
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1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 04/16/06
Posts: 1925
Loc: Belgium
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What I would be interested in is knowing the sales to restaurants, hotels and churches Dave, Indeed this would be interesting to know, particularly the sales to restaurants & hotels. If a restaurant or hotel would consider the purchase of a Yamaha Disklavier (or any other acoustic self-player piano) - which is in fact always bad news for the employment of professional pianists - then I would personallu be tempetd going for an AvantGrand instead as for a Disklavier and have it self-play: * significant price differnce in favour of the AvantGrand; * not a sophisticated electro- mechanical device as is a Disklavier that is under a lot of strain when heavily used schwammerl.
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#1698482 - 06/20/11 05:23 AM
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand a few facts
[Re: irving]
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Full Member
Registered: 04/27/10
Posts: 93
Loc: Nibelheim
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I guess there is a clear novelty / cool factor with the AGs, and there is also a certain buzz around these "hybrid pianos", which may have partly resulted from the fact that Yamaha seems to be doing more marketing for the AGs than for the Silent Pianos.
Then there is of course the tuning / maintenance issue, and for the N2 / U1 comparison also the fact that the former has a grand piano action.
Finally, perhaps many people need these more or less exclusively for use with headphones (especially as a second piano), in which case the AGs would be a better solution.
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#1698569 - 06/20/11 10:22 AM
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand a few facts
[Re: schwammerl]
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6000 Post Club Member
Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 6739
Loc: torrance, CA
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If, as Irving stated, both the N2 and N3 outsell their silent counter parts but if at the same time the silent pianos do not make a dent, the sales of the AvantGrand series will still not be a big success! Let take an example where a dealership sells 2 silent pianos per year and now the AvantGrand outsells this by a factor 3, he will then sell 6 AvantGrands per year, which for a big dealership is nothing to be excited about!? schwammerl. Luc, I think the reason that most retailers in the US don't position silents on the floor is that experience has shown that the turn will be very slow. Obviously, if you don't stock them, they become a specialty item which will only in most cases be ordered by people who have experience with them. This makes the prospects for market penetration dismal. You get erosion instead. The main resistance here in the US among musicians I know who could benefit from the silent technology is that they don't want to mix apples and oranges in one commodity, and that they are sensitive to the slight alteration to the acoustic action caused by the silent mechanism. There's also the fact that you can pick up a decent digital for a relatively low price to supplement your acsoutic and then replace it cheaply when the next latest and greatest digital comes along. Disklaviers and silent series have a sort of built-in obsolescence factor. Now one could say that while the Avant doesn't alter the action, the fact that the action is employed simply to activate electronic sensors is a far more drastic alteration. Possibly in the long run this will cause the sales curve to flatten or in fact turn down. Who knows? Certainly not me. I'm stunned by Irving's report (unless he doesn't stock silents on the floor) At the time both the Roland V and the AvantGrand were introduced in product launch campaigns, I couldn't see how an acoustic action would lure shoppers up from typical DP console prices. At that time I was a little active in the digital forum. Marty Flynn, who used to be Yamaha's informal voice here before he retired, was quite clear in saying that the AvantGrand was attracting shoppers who thought they were interested in Yamaha C series artist grands. When you think about it, it makes sense. Sticker shock for shoppers confronting current C series grand prices makes the Avant a relative bargain if the shoppers buy into the Avant concept of a stringless hybrid. Maybe Irving will comment on the typical consumer profile of the AvantGrand buyer --- whether he's swimming far upstram from Clavinova technology or doing a backstroke from C series artist grand. Whether the AG is a handwriting-on-the-wall milestone in the decline of the acoustic piano or just a passing fancy remains to be seen, but I would imagine that piano retailers whose image would not suffer by promoting digitals would have some concern about stocking an equivalent product. Of course it's not that easy. The AG has the pedigree, the pizzaz, the performance, the price (relative to acoustic grands), and most importantly, the positioning side by side with its C series cousins. One more reason for Yamaha's competitors to grit their teeth I guess.
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#1698773 - 06/20/11 04:44 PM
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand a few facts
[Re: irving]
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3000 Post Club Member
Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 3993
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
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Now one could say that while the Avant doesn't alter the action, the fact that the action is employed simply to activate electronic sensors is a far more drastic alteration. Possibly in the long run this will cause the sales curve to flatten or in fact turn down. Who knows? Certainly not me. I'm stunned by Irving's report (unless he doesn't stock silents on the floor) I hope everyone realizes that Yamaha introduced the GranTouch in 1995. The AvantGrand is just a refinement from that first generation hybrid. (The Silent Grand was introduced in 1994.) I'm waiting for Irving to follow though on his tease.  Come on Irving, let's not stretch this out for too long.
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#1698844 - 06/20/11 06:44 PM
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand a few facts
[Re: RAY930]
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500 Post Club Member
Registered: 06/18/09
Posts: 738
Loc: west coast island, canada
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But... why don't you post this in the digital section! Perhaps because it's a hybrid type thread, that deals with issues of acoustic pianos and digital. And even though piano keys are black and white, rarely are discussions on PW ... B & W. 
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#1699042 - 06/21/11 12:14 AM
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand a few facts
[Re: Dara]
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500 Post Club Member
Registered: 09/14/03
Posts: 697
Loc: Irvington, NY
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Could the observation that our AvantGrand sales outstrip our all-acoustic silent piano sales be an artifact of the pianos that we elect to display?
Regarding what we have on display in our West 58th Street store, there is almost always an N2 and an N3; there is almost always a U1 and a GB1K; and there is almost always at least one silent all-acoustic piano (U1, U3 or one of the Yamaha baby grands). The fact that we don't always have a silent U1 and a silent GB1K on display may, on a rare occassion, affect a purchase decision - but this would have no more than a minimal effect on our sales results.
The setup in our factory showroom is somewhat less favorable to the all-acoustic silent pianos. We almost always have the AvantGrands and a U1 and a GB1K on display there, but we don't always have an all-acoustic silent piano. However, the total number of silent piano sales at the factory isn't large enough to have too much of an affect on the data.
The bottom line is that the data are extremely robust - they can't be readily explained by procedural biases, and so they have to be taken seriously.
In my next post, I'll talk about the types of customers who buy AvantGrands and all-acoustic silent pianos.
_________________________
Irving Faust Harrison Pianos We sell new Bechsteins, Yamahas, Mason & Hamlins, Brodmanns and W. Hoffmanns, and rebuilt vintage Steinways. All rebuilding is done in our own factory. www.faustharrisonpianos.com
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#1699079 - 06/21/11 01:36 AM
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand a few facts
[Re: irving]
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6000 Post Club Member
Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 6739
Loc: torrance, CA
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Irving, Good stuff. Thank you. You approach to the data is so clinical though. If that's because you feel it's the best approach to the data, so be it. But if you have a measure of enthusiasm for your product and feel that forum protocol demands that you conceal it and appear indifferent, I don't think that's the case. As far as I know, retailers enthusiastic about their pianos don't need malpractice insurance to post here. In my next post, I'll talk about the types of customers who buy AvantGrands and all-acoustic silent pianos. Stephen Fortner, editor of Keyboard Magazine, has labeled the AvantGrand "a digital piano for people (with means) who hate digital pianos" as opposed to a digital piano for people "who love sound design". Could you speak to that notion in your post on customer types?
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#1699151 - 06/21/11 04:19 AM
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand a few facts
[Re: irving]
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3000 Post Club Member
Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 3993
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
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Irving, as a Yamaha dealer are you required to carry certain models on the floor (based on the size of your showroom) or can you carry whatever models you feel like carrying?
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#1699199 - 06/21/11 08:12 AM
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand a few facts
[Re: Dave Horne]
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500 Post Club Member
Registered: 09/14/03
Posts: 697
Loc: Irvington, NY
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Dave,
I believe that we have some minimum requirements from Yamaha as to the total number of pianos that we should display. Other than that, Sara decides which models to display and where to display them. I can't imagine that any manufacturer would ever challenge her. To my knowledge, they never have.
_________________________
Irving Faust Harrison Pianos We sell new Bechsteins, Yamahas, Mason & Hamlins, Brodmanns and W. Hoffmanns, and rebuilt vintage Steinways. All rebuilding is done in our own factory. www.faustharrisonpianos.com
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#1699205 - 06/21/11 08:42 AM
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand a few facts
[Re: turandot]
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500 Post Club Member
Registered: 09/14/03
Posts: 697
Loc: Irvington, NY
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Turandot,
You'll learn a lot about my level of enthusiasm for the AvantGrand (and Sara's) soon enough. The reason I haven't gone there yet is that I'd first like to focus on facts and educated opinions - so as to give enthusiasm (at whatever level) some context. As you've seen in my initial attempts to get people to think about the facts, this isn't an easy thing to do. This thread is my third attempt. The first two succumbed to detours and dustups that had nothing to do with the facts.
I'll be taking the train to Philadelphia tomorrow to hear Chris and Hugh perform at Cunningham. Hopefully, I'll have enough time on the train (in between the inevitable urgent phone calls) to put together some systematic thoughts on customer types who buy AvantGrands and all-acoustic silent pianos. To date, I haven't had the time to do this.
_________________________
Irving Faust Harrison Pianos We sell new Bechsteins, Yamahas, Mason & Hamlins, Brodmanns and W. Hoffmanns, and rebuilt vintage Steinways. All rebuilding is done in our own factory. www.faustharrisonpianos.com
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#1699243 - 06/21/11 10:27 AM
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand a few facts
[Re: irving]
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3000 Post Club Member
Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 3993
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
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Irving, I do have one favor to ask of you. If you ever have to open up an N3 to work on the action, please make a video on the process to get the action out of the piano.
I managed to extract the action form my GranTouch several times and could do it in a matter of minutes. Yamaha made the N3 a little more difficult and while I don't need to go in at the moment, in several years I'll have the action worked on by a piano tech and I know he'll have no experience with the N3. I want to be able to save him time when the time comes.
Thanks in advance! DH
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#1701323 - 06/24/11 04:07 PM
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand a few facts
[Re: Dave Horne]
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500 Post Club Member
Registered: 09/14/03
Posts: 697
Loc: Irvington, NY
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Dave,
I'll try to do this for you in the near future.
_________________________
Irving Faust Harrison Pianos We sell new Bechsteins, Yamahas, Mason & Hamlins, Brodmanns and W. Hoffmanns, and rebuilt vintage Steinways. All rebuilding is done in our own factory. www.faustharrisonpianos.com
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#1701333 - 06/24/11 04:33 PM
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand a few facts
[Re: irving]
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500 Post Club Member
Registered: 09/14/03
Posts: 697
Loc: Irvington, NY
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I had a great train ride down to Philly (and great hosts and a great concert when I got there). Our Beacon Chris is a giant talent; our Rich Galassini is a giant person (and no, I'm not talking about his size  ). During the train ride, I had the expected two or three "urgent" phone calls, but also nearly an hour to put some descriptions on paper about people who have purchased or will be purchasing AvantGrands. Here they are: Ten scenarios in which customers buy AvantGrands: 1. A small performance venue is busy all day long, doesn’t have the time, money or patience for tuners, and showcases pianists at night who want to perform on a piano that feels and sounds as good as the establishment can provide. They want a silent feature so that the pianists can practice during the day without bothering the day crowd, and the owners can’t be bothered with strict temperature and humidity control. The N3 is the perfect choice. 2. A church wants an attractive baby grand for the chapel that can be used for piano and harpsichord performances and also for organ music for services. They don’t have the budget for frequent tunings. Temperature and humidity fluctuations destroyed their last two pianos and their pianists are always complaining about performing on the church’s digital piano. The N3, with a moderately priced sound module for the organ voice, is the perfect instrument for them. 3. A pianist prefers an instrument that has the touch of a real grand piano and also silent capability so that he can practice late at night. A GB1K would have been acceptable, but he prefers the sound through headphones of the AvantGrand, he enjoys that it is always perfectly in tune and that he doesn’t have to fuss with a humidity control system. The N3 is just the right piano for him. 4. A pianist needs as much piano as he can get in a very limited space. The GB1K is too big. He actually prefers the sound of a U3, but not so much that he’s willing to give up the practicality of super-low maintenance and the silent feature that he uses on occasion. The N3 fits his space and his needs perfectly. 5. A piano playing family wants a good, moderately priced piano for their country home that’s not well heated in the winter. Arranging tunings prior to vacation stays (especially when the stays are just long weekends) is a nuisance. They thought that a digital piano would be a good solution, but couldn’t find one with an acceptable touch. The N3 proved to be the perfect piano for them. 6. A piano playing composer needs a piano with computer ports, so he’s been using a Clavinova. As soon as he experienced the real piano action in the AvantGrand, he upgraded to an N2. 7. A family wants a piano on which their beginner children can learn but that can also be used as a player piano. They don’t have the budget for a Disklavier and the children’s teacher insists that the children practice on a piano with a real action. She loves the touch of the AvantGrand and gives it her full endorsement. 8. A homeowner desires a moderately priced piano for his three talented children. Among the three of them, the piano is used four or more hours a day. It often gets to be a bit overbearing. But there is no remote place in the house to place the piano. A piano that can be played normally at less than full volume and also sometimes in silent mode, is just what they need. The terrific look of the N3 is icing on the cake for them. 9. A music school is tired of all the complaints about how their practice room pianos are so often out of tune – especially since they keep paying fairly large sums for tunings. Between the heavy use that the pianos get and the never-ending fluctuations in humidity, the tuners just can’t keep up. Digital pianos don’t have these tuning problems, but they are not acceptable to the piano students. The teachers and students love real grand piano actions in the AvantGrands. N2’s are the perfect solution for the school. 10. A music school is planning an essential expansion. They require 25 new practice rooms, but don’t have the budget to build them. If they could build the rooms, Yamaha P22’s would probably be the pianos that they would acquire for them. Instead, they’re going to build one giant practice room that will house 25 N2’s that will be used almost exclusively in silent mode. For silent use, most of the teachers and students prefer the N2 to the U1 Silent. Students will each buy and own their own headphones. The money that the school saves on construction costs will practically pay for the pianos. The teachers and students will enjoy the bonus that the pianos are always perfectly in tune. The school will enjoy the bonus of regular direct savings in tuning costs as well as indirect savings in administration costs.
_________________________
Irving Faust Harrison Pianos We sell new Bechsteins, Yamahas, Mason & Hamlins, Brodmanns and W. Hoffmanns, and rebuilt vintage Steinways. All rebuilding is done in our own factory. www.faustharrisonpianos.com
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#1701393 - 06/24/11 05:56 PM
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand a few facts
[Re: irving]
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3000 Post Club Member
Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 3993
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
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Irving, thanks for that post! I guess I would fall into your number 3. I should add that I had the idea for this technology long before the GranTouch came into being and I'm sure I wasn't the only one. I wonder if we'll hear the thoughts from a professional student, statistically speaking, that is. 
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#1701546 - 06/24/11 11:04 PM
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand a few facts
[Re: irving]
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500 Post Club Member
Registered: 01/01/10
Posts: 770
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After having argued with so many piano purists in this forum before about how understated the importance of the convenience values is (such as silent option, no tuning, no humidity control), in a high quality hybrid instrument like the AvantGrand can offer, it's refreshing to see confirmation from somebody in the industry that there's definitely a big market of practicalists who, while fully able to afford acoustic pianos, still prefer to pass over acoustics for such a hybrid like the Avant-Grand for its intrinsic and unique value of being a hybrid.
This is testimonial that the AvantGrand is not some overly priced novelty that only crazy people would spend the big bucks on. It shows that this kind of offering is spot on with a large segment of the market.
And now with the introduction of the N1, the offering is complete and almost anyone who's serious enough can afford to have a very usable solution that can fill most of their practical needs.
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#1701899 - 06/25/11 03:36 PM
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand a few facts
[Re: irving]
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500 Post Club Member
Registered: 03/25/05
Posts: 659
Loc: Northeast
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Irving,I totally agree with your observations and frankly am surprised at the enthusiasm "acoustic purists" have when they play on the N's.
_________________________
Kenny Blankenship Selling anything anyone will buy as the "Walmartizisation of the industry continues. (Still making a fair living and still having clients like me)
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#1701969 - 06/25/11 06:33 PM
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand a few facts
[Re: irving]
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6000 Post Club Member
Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 6739
Loc: torrance, CA
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I had a great train ride down to Philly (and great hosts and a great concert when I got there). Our Beacon Chris is a giant talent; our Rich Galassini is a giant person (and no, I'm not talking about his size  ). During the train ride, I had the expected two or three "urgent" phone calls, but also nearly an hour to put some descriptions on paper about people who have purchased or will be purchasing AvantGrands. Here they are: Ten scenarios in which customers buy AvantGrands: 1. A small performance venue is busy all day long, doesn’t have the time, money or patience for tuners, and showcases pianists at night who want to perform on a piano that feels and sounds as good as the establishment can provide. They want a silent feature so that the pianists can practice during the day without bothering the day crowd, and the owners can’t be bothered with strict temperature and humidity control. The N3 is the perfect choice. 2. A church wants an attractive baby grand for the chapel that can be used for piano and harpsichord performances and also for organ music for services. They don’t have the budget for frequent tunings. Temperature and humidity fluctuations destroyed their last two pianos and their pianists are always complaining about performing on the church’s digital piano. The N3, with a moderately priced sound module for the organ voice, is the perfect instrument for them. 3. A pianist prefers an instrument that has the touch of a real grand piano and also silent capability so that he can practice late at night. A GB1K would have been acceptable, but he prefers the sound through headphones of the AvantGrand, he enjoys that it is always perfectly in tune and that he doesn’t have to fuss with a humidity control system. The N3 is just the right piano for him. 4. A pianist needs as much piano as he can get in a very limited space. The GB1K is too big. He actually prefers the sound of a U3, but not so much that he’s willing to give up the practicality of super-low maintenance and the silent feature that he uses on occasion. The N3 fits his space and his needs perfectly. 5. A piano playing family wants a good, moderately priced piano for their country home that’s not well heated in the winter. Arranging tunings prior to vacation stays (especially when the stays are just long weekends) is a nuisance. They thought that a digital piano would be a good solution, but couldn’t find one with an acceptable touch. The N3 proved to be the perfect piano for them. 6. A piano playing composer needs a piano with computer ports, so he’s been using a Clavinova. As soon as he experienced the real piano action in the AvantGrand, he upgraded to an N2. 7. A family wants a piano on which their beginner children can learn but that can also be used as a player piano. They don’t have the budget for a Disklavier and the children’s teacher insists that the children practice on a piano with a real action. She loves the touch of the AvantGrand and gives it her full endorsement. 8. A homeowner desires a moderately priced piano for his three talented children. Among the three of them, the piano is used four or more hours a day. It often gets to be a bit overbearing. But there is no remote place in the house to place the piano. A piano that can be played normally at less than full volume and also sometimes in silent mode, is just what they need. The terrific look of the N3 is icing on the cake for them. 9. A music school is tired of all the complaints about how their practice room pianos are so often out of tune – especially since they keep paying fairly large sums for tunings. Between the heavy use that the pianos get and the never-ending fluctuations in humidity, the tuners just can’t keep up. Digital pianos don’t have these tuning problems, but they are not acceptable to the piano students. The teachers and students love real grand piano actions in the AvantGrands. N2’s are the perfect solution for the school. 10. A music school is planning an essential expansion. They require 25 new practice rooms, but don’t have the budget to build them. If they could build the rooms, Yamaha P22’s would probably be the pianos that they would acquire for them. Instead, they’re going to build one giant practice room that will house 25 N2’s that will be used almost exclusively in silent mode. For silent use, most of the teachers and students prefer the N2 to the U1 Silent. Students will each buy and own their own headphones. The money that the school saves on construction costs will practically pay for the pianos. The teachers and students will enjoy the bonus that the pianos are always perfectly in tune. The school will enjoy the bonus of regular direct savings in tuning costs as well as indirect savings in administration costs. Next time I need to think clearly I must remember to hop a train. This list is thoughtful. I don't buy #6. I see an Avant as a possible choice, but not the obvious choice unless the 'composer' is piano-centric or more a song stylist and arranger than a full-blown composer. The price jump from Clivonova (or similar) is significant and the on board compositional tools limited. There are well-stocked toolbox keyboards available for much less money than any Avant, and Avant series (I believe) does not employ any of Yamaha's much ballyhooed 'Spectral Modeling". (Maybe a trickle-up later) That's only one of ten though, and I'm not mentioning it to be contentious. Something that is implicit in many of your scenarios (church, small multipurpose venue, music school etc.) is the ability of the Avant to deliver a better facsimile of acoustic piano sound into the air than previous upscale digital pianos aimed at the home piano market. To my mind, that's more impressive than simply sticking a grand action in the case to activate sensors. I don't think it's simply a matter of speaker array either. I think it goes directly back to the sampling. Even bypassing the on board speakers and playing through studio monitors produces a sound that transmits, emits, and disperses in a pleasant way. Good stuff! The question of course is whether the Avant sustains interest and becomes a staple of the Yamaha catalog or whether it remains a specialty item, following the fate of the GranTouch and the silent system models. If it does become a staple, buyers need to think about the likely future appearance of an Avant N3a, N3b, etc. Digital buyers who purchase sub-5k instruments are generally aware that there will be a number of future latest-and-greatests that will likely lure them to replace. At Avant prices, this requires more forehought. Irving, What's the warranty arrangement on the Avant N's....parts? labor? in-home servicing? I know on the silents the electronic system warranty terms are not as far-reaching as those on the acoustic components. What's the breakdown on Avant warranty?
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#1702222 - 06/26/11 05:59 AM
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand a few facts
[Re: irving]
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3000 Post Club Member
Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 3993
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
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turnadot, I can answer the warranty question from over here (though I expect to be corrected by Irving  ). My N3 came with a two year warranty (in home) and I purchased an additional three years for a slight charge (€75). Without reading the fine print I assume it's parts and labor during that time. I will hire a technician when the time comes to work on the action (just like I would with my long gone C3). My plan is trade up to the next generation when it is released. I'm hoping Yamaha introduces a version using the action from their nine footer - that would be a great selling point in my opinion.
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#1702226 - 06/26/11 06:18 AM
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand a few facts
[Re: irving]
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500 Post Club Member
Registered: 01/01/10
Posts: 770
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My N3 purchased in the US came with a full 5 year new Yamaha in-home warranty included.
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#1702236 - 06/26/11 07:19 AM
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand a few facts
[Re: irving]
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1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 1792
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irving,
Does Yamaha sponsor the school pianos ? I mean, do they get more reduction than an average piano buyer that knows a bit about negotiation would get?
Do you have any idea what the students think about it (studying with headphones in a busy large room with others probably talking, phoning, eating)? I personally can not concentrate in such a situation...
And why don't the schools get a decent airconditioner to solve the tuning issues and save their pianos? The digitals' actions probably are just as sensitive to the humidity fluctiations so they keep part of the problems with their current approach?
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#1702269 - 06/26/11 08:43 AM
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand a few facts
[Re: Volusiano]
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3000 Post Club Member
Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 3993
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
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My N3 purchased in the US came with a full 5 year new Yamaha in-home warranty included. I see that at pdf file - Yamaha I just now sent an e-mail to my contact for Yamaha in Germany. I was informed when I purchased my N3 last year that the piano comes with a two year warranty and I could purchase an additional three years for €75. I'll learn in a day or two if there's a difference over here regarding warranties.
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#1702307 - 06/26/11 10:40 AM
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand a few facts
[Re: Dave Horne]
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6000 Post Club Member
Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 6739
Loc: torrance, CA
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Dave and Volusiano, Thanks for the warranty information. Gee! I had no idea that you guys owned AvantGrands.  Who would've thunk it? I wouldn't be surprised if the warranty terms are different in Europe from those in NA. Warranty terms are really a marketing function. Terms vary on a lot of digital instruments, and he same holds true for acoustics -- standard 5 year warranty in Europe on European pianos, ten years in NA on the same pianos with the distributor often kicking in the additional five. Whether you pay a modest charge for years 3, 4, and 5 or not, 5 years parts and labor with in-home servicing seems like pretty good reassurance. Wouter, I think the degree of distraction depends on the phones -- closed or open. Practice rooms in many cases are horrid claustrophobic little enclosures that neither seal the sound nor give it a favorable environment to disperse. Stand in the corridor that services a typical practice room setup and you'll get a sense of how well the individual rooms seal the sound. Of course it's possible to have a better setup, but as Irving has implied, it's expensive.
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#1702465 - 06/26/11 03:43 PM
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand a few facts
[Re: wouter79]
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500 Post Club Member
Registered: 01/01/10
Posts: 770
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And why don't the schools get a decent airconditioner to solve the tuning issues and save their pianos?= I'm sure air conditioning is necessary for human comfort as well as for the instruments so I doubt that the schools would switch to the AG just so they don't have to run the AC. But then, when school's out during off hours, it'd be wasteful to be running the AC 24/7 in order to keep the acoustic pianos in tune. So the digital would allow them to conserve energy and turn down or off the AC during off hours. So it's not about not having decent AC. It's about energy conservation and cost savings. The digitals' actions probably are just as sensitive to the humidity fluctiations so they keep part of the problems with their current approach? I always thought the parts that are sensitive to the humidity that affects the tunes of the strings the most is the wooden enclosure. Sure, the acoustic action may be affected somewhat by humidity as well, but it wouldn't translate to the piano being out of tune. If anything, it may translate to the action feeling a little different, that is, if you can even tell. But the only contribution the action has on the sound generation is the hammers striking the strings. And the hammers' striking can only affect the loudness of the notes. It can't possibly affect the tunes of the notes.
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