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#1713395 - 07/14/11 05:10 PM Re: Is it legal to sell advanced transcriptions of songs? [Re: MathTeacher]
daviel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 933
Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
"It would be interesting see a correlation on whether a person is able to trancribe or not and which side of the fence they'd be on concerning the ethics.", jasperkeys

It would be interesting see a correlation on whether a person is able to compose commercially successful music and which side of the fence they'd be on concerning the ethics of someone selling transcriptions of their work without honoring the copyright and paying royalties to the composer.

I just paid for the licenses for 12 songs on a new CD of ours - all covers. There are companies who handle such matters and we went through one of them. I am at a loss why musicians want to rip-off songwriters just to sell bootleg scores, that may or may not be successful, that they cook up.
_________________________
"She loves to limbo, that much is clear. She's got the right dynamic for the New Frontier"
http://roadhouseallstars.com/

David Loving, Waxahachie, Texas

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Piano & Music Accessories
#1713409 - 07/14/11 05:33 PM Re: Is it legal to sell advanced transcriptions of songs? [Re: daviel]
jasperkeys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/22/05
Posts: 411
Loc: Safford, AZ
Well daviel, this is just speculation on my part but I believe that if there was money to be made from a composition of mine, I would feel entitled to share in the profit in some way. If there was no money involved and if people wanted to transcribe and share my music free of charge, I think I'd feel flattered and would want to see what they'd done with my music. But like I said this is just speculation but I think this is how'd I'd feel.
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#1713531 - 07/14/11 09:40 PM Re: Is it legal to sell advanced transcriptions of songs? [Re: MathTeacher]
daviel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 933
Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
Then that is your prerogative; handle your songs as you wish. Just don't assume anyone else handles theirs the same way. If you ask them they might just give you the right to do what you want. You really ought to get permission first, though.
_________________________
"She loves to limbo, that much is clear. She's got the right dynamic for the New Frontier"
http://roadhouseallstars.com/

David Loving, Waxahachie, Texas

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#1713540 - 07/14/11 10:01 PM Re: Is it legal to sell advanced transcriptions of songs? [Re: daviel]
rocket88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 3165
Originally Posted By: daviel

I just paid for the licenses for 12 songs on a new CD of ours - all covers. There are companies who handle such matters and we went through one of them. I am at a loss why musicians want to rip-off songwriters just to sell bootleg scores, that may or may not be successful, that they cook up.


Thats right. When I did my recent CD, I did the same for the three covers . . . jumped thru the hoops and paid the cost.

Bottom line, when a person writes a song, it is their intellectual property.

Using it in any form without compensation is stealing their intellectual property.

Unless they give you permission to do so.

Also, think about this: Suppose you do a transcription of a song by an obscure songwriter, and distribute it.

Later, someone else, such as a known artist, picks up the song and has a big hit with it. It has happened.

You can bet that you will be contacted by the lawyers for that artist, demanding money, and even suing you.

Just do the right thing, which is what you would want people to do with your intellectual property.
_________________________
Music teacher and piano player.

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#1713547 - 07/14/11 10:32 PM Re: Is it legal to sell advanced transcriptions of songs? [Re: kevinb]
david_a Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 2913
Originally Posted By: kevinb
Many people and organizations are campaigning for a more consumer-oriented approach to intellectual property law. But the key word in 'intellectual property' is _property_. Any argument for a change to IP law that is founded on a lack of respect for, or understanding of, property has no credibility and, in the end, weakens the cause.
I am inclined to argue the opposite - that the longer we pervert the idea of property by extending it to the intangible, the more inappropriate and harmful laws we are likely to make.
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#1713638 - 07/15/11 02:56 AM Re: Is it legal to sell advanced transcriptions of songs? [Re: david_a]
kevinb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 1565
Originally Posted By: david_a
Originally Posted By: kevinb
Many people and organizations are campaigning for a more consumer-oriented approach to intellectual property law. But the key word in 'intellectual property' is _property_. Any argument for a change to IP law that is founded on a lack of respect for, or understanding of, property has no credibility and, in the end, weakens the cause.
I am inclined to argue the opposite - that the longer we pervert the idea of property by extending it to the intangible, the more inappropriate and harmful laws we are likely to make.


Hang on a minute...

We didn't extend property law to the intangible. English law has recognized intangible property since medieval times. A lease, for example, is intangible property, as is a debt.

Recognizing the product of your mind as your property as much as the product of your hands is an entirely natural application of existing law. When you buy intellectual property you are buying a bundle of rights, just as when you buy a lease or a debt.

Of course, intangibles are different kinds of property from physical objects, and need a different kind of law.

But to remove intangibles from the scope of propery would be the most radical thing to happen to English law since the Norman Conquest.

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#1713644 - 07/15/11 03:18 AM Re: Is it legal to sell advanced transcriptions of songs? [Re: daviel]
kevinb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 1565
Originally Posted By: daviel

It would be interesting see a correlation on whether a person is able to compose commercially successful music and which side of the fence they'd be on concerning the ethics of someone selling transcriptions of their work without honoring the copyright and paying royalties to the composer.


It's not just music -- many people's livelihoods depend on intellectual property being respected. Writers, computer programmers, architects, photographers, painters....

One thing that's always somewhat surprised me is that people who work in those lines of business seem to be no more averse to casual bootlegging than anybody else.

An argument I often hear from my colleagues is "Well, everybody's ripped off my program. Why shouldn't I rip off a bunch of movies?" Ethically, this is pretty self-serving and doesn't hold up to much scrutiny. But, at the same time, it's easy enough to understand why people think that way.

Add this tit-for-tat ethic to the rapacity of the recording industry and the ham-fisted, ill-judged campaigns of the copyright agencies, and you've got ideal conditions for widespread law-breaking.

I would like to think (hope?) that if the law more accurately reflected the consensus of ethical views on this subject, we'd all be more likely to respect it. Of course, there will always be some people who prefer theft over honest toil, but when large numbers of decent, mostly law-abiding folks find a law almost impossible to comply with, then it's time to have a good hard think about what can be done.

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#1713721 - 07/15/11 08:45 AM Re: Is it legal to sell advanced transcriptions of songs? [Re: kevinb]
daviel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 933
Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
Everybody knows what a patent is, right? Well, a copyright is a patent for your ideas that are published. I guarantee that if many posters here had a dog in that fight they would do an opinion 180. Just ask a songwriter who depends on his craft to make a living what he thinks.


Edited by daviel (07/15/11 08:45 AM)
Edit Reason: spelling
_________________________
"She loves to limbo, that much is clear. She's got the right dynamic for the New Frontier"
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David Loving, Waxahachie, Texas

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#1713979 - 07/15/11 03:16 PM Re: Is it legal to sell advanced transcriptions of songs? [Re: daviel]
kevinb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 1565
Originally Posted By: daviel
Everybody knows what a patent is, right? Well, a copyright is a patent for your ideas that are published. I guarantee that if many posters here had a dog in that fight they would do an opinion 180. Just ask a songwriter who depends on his craft to make a living what he thinks.


Well, I am one of those people whose livelihood depends on IP rights being respected. So I most certainly have a dog in this pile.

I think you over-simplify an ethically very complicated and contentious situation. On the one hand, we (in the West) live in a society where the concept of ownership is well-established, and almost everybody agrees in principle that a person is entitled to exercise his or her rights of ownership. Almost everybody agrees that rights of property can, and should, apply to intellectual property as well as to physical objects. To be fair, not everybody does -- but most people do.

But most people's ideas about ethics are fairly utilitarian -- mine certainly are. If IP law causes somebody hardship without a corresponding benefit to anybody else, then it's understandable that people won't respect it.

Now, of course, some forms of IP violation are clearly harmful. Passing around bootleg movies or copies of CD clearly violates somebody's legitimate interests (although not necessarily the interests of the rights-owner). It's pretty hard to make a convincing ethical justification for that sort of thing, unless you're prepared to argue for the complete dismantling of IP rights (and all that would follow from that).

But there are many situations where the harm is not obvious, and may not even exist. Passing around private copies of transcriptions of music is, I think, a borderline case. While I accept that, in principle, you're depriving the original owner of a potential source of income, it's far from clear to me that this would happen in practice. Of course, done on a large scale it might be more likely.

It's not clear to me that the BBC, for example, suffered any loss or harm because fans of 'Teletubbies' put drawings of the characters on their Web sites. It's not clear to me that the company Orange suffers any loss or harm any time anybody else uses an orange square in their publicity materials. It's not clear to me that record companies lose money if I buy a CD so I can copy it to my iPod. I could go on, but there are just so many similar examples that it's hard to know which ones to pick.

The ethics of intellectual property is complicated, and it does the cause of those of us who want to see better compliance absolutely no good at all to pretend otherwise.

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#1713991 - 07/15/11 03:30 PM Re: Is it legal to sell advanced transcriptions of songs? [Re: jasperkeys]
etcetra Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 1446
Originally Posted By: jasperkeys
Well daviel, this is just speculation on my part but I believe that if there was money to be made from a composition of mine, I would feel entitled to share in the profit in some way. If there was no money involved and if people wanted to transcribe and share my music free of charge, I think I'd feel flattered and would want to see what they'd done with my music. But like I said this is just speculation but I think this is how'd I'd feel.


The problem is that even if you decide to share it for free, it may affect the composer's ability to make profit with that piece of music.. Let's say the composer actually has an arrangement... why would you buy an arrangement from the composer if you can download one for free? I mentioned earlier how this guy published a transcription of Robert Glasper's arrangement's on youtube and received a warning from the agent... Either way it's important to notify the composer.

But I do agree that copyright issue isn't all that black and white. People share jazz transcriptions online all the time, and that doesn't seem to be a problem(well it's not like there is much money in jazz anyways). The original fakebook did violate copyright laws, but musicians didn't find problems using them, and it would cost a fortune if you buy those charts from the composers individually..A lot of great accomplished jazz musicians do feel the same way as you do about their own music too.. I know Aaron Parks has all his charts on his websites, and most musicians will give the charts to you if you just ask them. Of course things may be different for commercial music compositions/arrangement, where the composers actually expects to profit from their music.

Here's just an example of how copyright laws actually do more harm than good for creativity.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SaFTm2bcac


Edited by etcetra (07/15/11 03:34 PM)

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#1714171 - 07/15/11 09:13 PM Re: Is it legal to sell advanced transcriptions of songs? [Re: MathTeacher]
daviel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 933
Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
Originally Posted By: MathTeacher
I transcribe pop hits a lot. ... So I make these lackluster arrangements to an advanced version, usually as advanced as possible for two hands. ... I was wondering if I could start up a website for people who have the same complaints about the available arrangements of their favourite songs. Is it legal to put a price tag on these "embellishments" of mine, or do my scores still belong to the original publishing houses that made the first piano transcriptions?


The OP wants to sell his charts.
_________________________
"She loves to limbo, that much is clear. She's got the right dynamic for the New Frontier"
http://roadhouseallstars.com/

David Loving, Waxahachie, Texas

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#1714194 - 07/15/11 10:10 PM Re: Is it legal to sell advanced transcriptions of songs? [Re: daviel]
MathTeacher Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/25/11
Posts: 256
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Originally Posted By: daviel
The OP wants to sell his charts.


Wanted to. Now I'm content just to trade transcriptions. Here's the link again, with two transcribers trading so far:

http://poptranscription.freeforums.org/

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#1714320 - 07/16/11 06:34 AM Re: Is it legal to sell advanced transcriptions of songs? [Re: etcetra]
kevinb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 1565
Originally Posted By: etcetra

The problem is that even if you decide to share it for free, it may affect the composer's ability to make profit with that piece of music.. Let's say the composer actually has an arrangement... why would you buy an arrangement from the composer if you can download one for free?


Well, yes, that is indeed the problem. The ethical complexity is that it's often far from clear whether anybody actually will lose money. Clearly the potential for loss is there.

Suppose my neighbour has a lawnmower he never uses, rusting in a garden shed. And I really, really need a lawnmower. Is it ethical for me to steal it? Would it make any difference if the lawnmower were unsaleable and of no actual monetary value?

I don't know the answers to these questions. One of the reasons we have laws is so that we don't all have to indulge in a game of Scruples every time we need to know whether some action is acceptable or not.


Quote:

People share jazz transcriptions online all the time, and that doesn't seem to be a problem(well it's not like there is much money in jazz anyways). The original fakebook did violate copyright laws, but musicians didn't find problems using them, and it would cost a fortune if you buy those charts from the composers individually.


It doesn't cost a fortune to buy them from Hal Leonard. And, in my view, the Hal Leonard RealBook is of better quality than most of the bootleg charts. I bought one, anyway -- it's a small price to pay for a clean conscience smile

But there's quite a lot of stuff missing from the Hal Leonard RealBook that exists in bootleg transcription, simply because HL couldn't negotiate a deal with the original publishers. Many jazz standards are unavailable as legal publications, so if you want to play them even in your own home, you've got to make your own transcription or rely on an unauthorised one from somebody else.

In principle, I suppose one should respect the right of the rights-owner to insist that the song is never played (that's what the absence of an authorised transcription amounts to, after all). But, coming back to Bentham, does such a course of action increase the total amount of utility? Or, as Kant would have said, does it help to bring about the summum bonum? It's not clear to me that it does.

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#1714344 - 07/16/11 08:29 AM Re: Is it legal to sell advanced transcriptions of songs? [Re: kevinb]
beeboss Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1218
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: kevinb

I don't know the answers to these questions. One of the reasons we have laws is so that we don't all have to indulge in a game of Scruples every time we need to know whether some action is acceptable or not.



Except of course that the law is totally impenetrable and in a complete mess. In the UK (as I think you already mentioned) virtually everybody is already breaking the law by copying tunes to their ipod/computer/mobile. Nobody even knows what the law is and couldn't respect it even if they wanted to. And there is so much content available for free these days in the kind of grey is-it-or-isn't-it-ok area, youtube, internet radio etc. This is largely why normal people are not that bothered about whether they are breaking the law or not I think. Nobody but a lawyer knows what the law is anyway and there is little you can do to avoid breaking it anyway, especially if you don't know what it is.


Originally Posted By: kevinb

But there's quite a lot of stuff missing from the Hal Leonard RealBook that exists in bootleg transcription, simply because HL couldn't negotiate a deal with the original publishers. Many jazz standards are unavailable as legal publications, so if you want to play them even in your own home, you've got to make your own transcription or rely on an unauthorised one from somebody else.



I don't think there is anything wrong with MAKING a transcription. I don't there is anything wrong in playing this in public (the publisher/composer doesn't see any money from this anyway unless you are playing in a very large venue), it is only the copying and distributing of these transcriptions that could be regarded as potentially illegal/unethical.

Originally Posted By: kevinb

In principle, I suppose one should respect the right of the rights-owner to insist that the song is never played



I don't think that is a right that they have. How could a tune even become a standard unless people play it? For practical purposes it matters little if the performers have copied out a rough part or are playing it from memory, but I think it is only the making of copies that is illegal (of the sheet music or a recording) not the act of playing a tune in public.
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#1714389 - 07/16/11 10:36 AM Re: Is it legal to sell advanced transcriptions of songs? [Re: MathTeacher]
daviel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 933
Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
As Li'l Abner said, "I obey all laws, good or bad"
_________________________
"She loves to limbo, that much is clear. She's got the right dynamic for the New Frontier"
http://roadhouseallstars.com/

David Loving, Waxahachie, Texas

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#1714426 - 07/16/11 11:54 AM Re: Is it legal to sell advanced transcriptions of songs? [Re: beeboss]
kevinb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 1565
Originally Posted By: beeboss
How could a tune even become a standard unless people play it? For practical purposes it matters little if the performers have copied out a rough part or are playing it from memory, but I think it is only the making of copies that is illegal (of the sheet music or a recording) not the act of playing a tune in public.


Not so, in the UK at least. Owning the intellectual property rights in a song means you get to say who may or may not perform it.

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#1714483 - 07/16/11 02:01 PM Re: Is it legal to sell advanced transcriptions of songs? [Re: kevinb]
beeboss Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1218
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: kevinb

Not so, in the UK at least. Owning the intellectual property rights in a song means you get to say who may or may not perform it.


I don't think that is right, but I am not a lawyer.
But I have played very many gigs in all kinds of venues, live radio broadcasts etc. I can tell you that never once has anybody tried to stop me playing anything. Nor could they - there is no mechanism that exists to stop someone playing a tune on a gig.
With radio it is possible that the composer may get some recompense (if they are lucky enough to fall into a prs sample area - don't get me started on that one) but on a live gig there is no mechanism at all to pay the writer for most gigs, though at certain larger venues you can fill in a form to say what tunes got played (which would submitted to prs and a few pennies may find their way to the writers bank account).
You can go to any jazz club or bar in the country and hear people playing tunes that they have not received permission to play. And the composer likely won't get payed for it either.

It is definitely true that you have to receive permission to publish a tune written by someone else (I think that is different in the states, for audio at least) but I don't think that is true for public performance.
If it is I would be really interested to see a proper official source that corroborates your assertion. If such a law was enforced it would be the end of live music, what little there is left.
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http://www.youtube.com/davebeeboss

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#1714520 - 07/16/11 02:51 PM Re: Is it legal to sell advanced transcriptions of songs? [Re: beeboss]
etcetra Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 1446
Originally Posted By: beeboss
Originally Posted By: kevinb

Not so, in the UK at least. Owning the intellectual property rights in a song means you get to say who may or may not perform it.


I don't think that is right, but I am not a lawyer.
But I have played very many gigs in all kinds of venues, live radio broadcasts etc. I can tell you that never once has anybody tried to stop me playing anything. Nor could they - there is no mechanism that exists to stop someone playing a tune on a gig.
With radio it is possible that the composer may get some recompense (if they are lucky enough to fall into a prs sample area - don't get me started on that one) but on a live gig there is no mechanism at all to pay the writer for most gigs, though at certain larger venues you can fill in a form to say what tunes got played (which would submitted to prs and a few pennies may find their way to the writers bank account).
You can go to any jazz club or bar in the country and hear people playing tunes that they have not received permission to play. And the composer likely won't get payed for it either.

It is definitely true that you have to receive permission to publish a tune written by someone else (I think that is different in the states, for audio at least) but I don't think that is true for public performance.
If it is I would be really interested to see a proper official source that corroborates your assertion. If such a law was enforced it would be the end of live music, what little there is left.


From what I know, live venues are supposed to pay license fee to play songs. I remember a friend of mine told me he wasn't allowed to play certain standard because they venue didn't have the proper license for them This was in US.

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#1715107 - 07/17/11 03:02 PM Re: Is it legal to sell advanced transcriptions of songs? [Re: MathTeacher]
BadOrange Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 368
Loc: Banned
it is indeed the venues role to pay for the required fees. Liability lies solely with the venue, not the artist reproducing copyrighted works.

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#1715221 - 07/17/11 06:34 PM Re: Is it legal to sell advanced transcriptions of songs? [Re: beeboss]
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
Originally Posted By: beeboss
Nor could they - there is no mechanism that exists to stop someone playing a tune on a gig.
I know you live in the UK, so your laws may be slightly different than here.

But a lot of both good and bad/inaccurate info has been posted here. For example, artists DO NOT get fairly compensated for radio airplay. BMI/ASCAP have the ability to track everything electronically now, but they don't. If you are small, Lady Gaga and Bruce Springsteen are getting your money.

Likewise, some things are clear in the law and some aren't. Technically if the venue has a performance license, or you pay your own usage license, you can use or play any music. However, the artist might object to its use, even though you've paid for it. Many artists have complained about their works being used in political campaigns or similar (think Rush Limbaugh and Ohio) because they argue the use constitutes their endorsement.

As far as the OP's question, distributing arrangements of works still under copywrite without permission is a no-no, although people do it all the time, even here in this forum.
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MSU - the university of Michigan!
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#1715271 - 07/17/11 08:21 PM Re: Is it legal to sell advanced transcriptions of songs? [Re: gryphon]
beeboss Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1218
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: gryphon
Originally Posted By: beeboss
Nor could they - there is no mechanism that exists to stop someone playing a tune on a gig.
I know you live in the UK, so your laws may be slightly different than here.

But a lot of both good and bad/inaccurate info has been posted here. For example, artists DO NOT get fairly compensated for radio airplay. BMI/ASCAP have the ability to track everything electronically now, but they don't. If you are small, Lady Gaga and Bruce Springsteen are getting your money.

Likewise, some things are clear in the law and some aren't. Technically if the venue has a performance license, or you pay your own usage license, you can use or play any music. However, the artist might object to its use, even though you've paid for it. Many artists have complained about their works being used in political campaigns or similar (think Rush Limbaugh and Ohio) because they argue the use constitutes their endorsement.

As far as the OP's question, distributing arrangements of works still under copywrite without permission is a no-no, although people do it all the time, even here in this forum.


Yes, that is just about how it is over here in the UK, I think. Basically the way royalties work is to serve the interests of big companies.
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http://www.youtube.com/davebeeboss

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#1715445 - 07/18/11 02:30 AM Re: Is it legal to sell advanced transcriptions of songs? [Re: beeboss]
kevinb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 1565
Originally Posted By: beeboss
Originally Posted By: kevinb

Not so, in the UK at least. Owning the intellectual property rights in a song means you get to say who may or may not perform it.


I don't think that is right, but I am not a lawyer.
[...]
If it is I would be really interested to see a proper official source that corroborates your assertion. If such a law was enforced it would be the end of live music, what little there is left.


It's covered by s.19 of the Copyright, Designs, and Patents Act (1988), as ammended:

Quote:
19 Infringement by performance, showing or playing of work in public.

(1)The performance of the work in public is an act restricted by the copyright in a literary, dramatic or musical work.

(2)In this Part “performance”, in relation to a work—

(a)includes delivery in the case of lectures, addresses, speeches and sermons, and

(b)in general, includes any mode of visual or acoustic presentation, including presentation by means of a sound recording, film [or broadcast] of the work.


FWIW I do have a UK law degree. However, IP is a specialised area of law, and what I mostly remember about it is what I had to cram to pass the exam.

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#1715492 - 07/18/11 06:23 AM Re: Is it legal to sell advanced transcriptions of songs? [Re: kevinb]
beeboss Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1218
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: kevinb

It's covered by s.19 of the Copyright, Designs, and Patents Act (1988), as ammended:

Quote:
19 Infringement by performance, showing or playing of work in public.

(1)The performance of the work in public is an act restricted by the copyright in a literary, dramatic or musical work.

(2)In this Part “performance”, in relation to a work—

(a)includes delivery in the case of lectures, addresses, speeches and sermons, and

(b)in general, includes any mode of visual or acoustic presentation, including presentation by means of a sound recording, film [or broadcast] of the work.


FWIW I do have a UK law degree. However, IP is a specialised area of law, and what I mostly remember about it is what I had to cram to pass the exam.


Thanks, that is interesting. And maybe you are right. I had assumed that if the venue was licensed then that took care of the legal stuff, but maybe you are right and I am breaking the law every time I play a gig (as well as every time I download a cd I have bought to my ipod). It would make me laugh if playing jazz was actually illegal!
You said that permission was required for a live performance of any work so how should one go about getting that in theory? And if a copyright holder didn't want to have their tune performed publicly how would they go about stopping that happening?
I said before the law is a mess and is impenetrable for non-lawyers but it seems it is worse than I thought.
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#1715493 - 07/18/11 06:38 AM Re: Is it legal to sell advanced transcriptions of songs? [Re: beeboss]
kevinb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 1565
Originally Posted By: beeboss

You said that permission was required for a live performance of any work so how should one go about getting that in theory? And if a copyright holder didn't want to have their tune performed publicly how would they go about stopping that happening?
I said before the law is a mess and is impenetrable for non-lawyers but it seems it is worse than I thought.


I'm sorry if my post was not clear. In the UK most venues that regularly host live music will already be taking care of the legal side of things, by getting a licence from the PRS or some other way. My understanding is that performers at such a venue shouldn't have to deal with the legal issues themselves.

As a composer or songwriter, by registering my work with the PRS I am essentially giving permission for it to be performed.





Edited by kevinb (07/18/11 06:40 AM)

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#1715549 - 07/18/11 08:55 AM Re: Is it legal to sell advanced transcriptions of songs? [Re: kevinb]
beeboss Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1218
Loc: uk south
Thanks for the clarification
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#1715654 - 07/18/11 12:00 PM Re: Is it legal to sell advanced transcriptions of songs? [Re: MathTeacher]
Bob Newbie Offline
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Registered: 09/02/06
Posts: 1549
Someone mentioned the Hal Leonard Real Books..I purchased 2 of their books..I thought..they were somewhat faithful to the recordings..wrong key perhaps..in some instances..
I E mailed them and asked when they were going to offer an electronic book version..you'd think I was making a silly request from there standpoint..reminding me they're a book publishing firm..so they linked me to a sheet music site
to download individual sheets..! now why on earth would I want to do that folks!..the book costs 44.00 (roughly)
I can un spiral the book and scan the pages by hand!..
the cost for single sheet songs would be astronomical..
I'll wait and bide my time..eventually they hear the clamoring from other musicians..to go "E" book format!

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#1715659 - 07/18/11 12:13 PM Re: Is it legal to sell advanced transcriptions of songs? [Re: Bob Newbie]
kevinb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 1565
Originally Posted By: Bob Newbie
Someone mentioned the Hal Leonard Real Books..I purchased 2 of their books..I thought..they were somewhat faithful to the recordings..wrong key perhaps..in some instances..
I E mailed them and asked when they were going to offer an electronic book version..you'd think I was making a silly request from there standpoint..reminding me they're a book publishing firm..so they linked me to a sheet music site
to download individual sheets..! now why on earth would I want to do that folks!..the book costs 44.00 (roughly)
I can un spiral the book and scan the pages by hand!..


That's probably unlawful, as well, at least in the UK smirk It's a kind of 'format shifting', analagous to copying CDs onto your ipod so far as IP law is concerned.

Despite the somewhat handwritten look, I imagine that the Hal Leonard RealBook is eletronically typeset, and a PDF (or similar) format from the publisher would offer better quality than a scan, particularly if you wanted (e.g.,) to print it at a different size than the original. The problem is that, from the publisher's perspective, PDFs almost have to be cripplingly expensive, because they know that hundreds of bootleg copies will circulate for each legitimate sale.

Of course, this isn't a problem that is particular to music publishing -- ebook publishers in general have had to grapple with it, with greater or less success.

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#1715687 - 07/18/11 01:00 PM Re: Is it legal to sell advanced transcriptions of songs? [Re: MathTeacher]
Bob Newbie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/02/06
Posts: 1549
Well ..now Amazon has "some" fake books on Kindle..but not all just a few..so I guess I'll wait a little longer..
for the Ultimate fake book with 1200 songs..and the "Just" Real series from Warner Brothers..to go "E" book..

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#1715741 - 07/18/11 02:34 PM Re: Is it legal to sell advanced transcriptions of songs? [Re: kevinb]
beeboss Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1218
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: kevinb
Originally Posted By: Bob Newbie
Someone mentioned the Hal Leonard Real Books..I purchased 2 of their books..I thought..they were somewhat faithful to the recordings..wrong key perhaps..in some instances..
I E mailed them and asked when they were going to offer an electronic book version..you'd think I was making a silly request from there standpoint..reminding me they're a book publishing firm..so they linked me to a sheet music site
to download individual sheets..! now why on earth would I want to do that folks!..the book costs 44.00 (roughly)
I can un spiral the book and scan the pages by hand!..


That's probably unlawful, as well, at least in the UK smirk It's a kind of 'format shifting', analagous to copying CDs onto your ipod so far as IP law is concerned.


That is mad, you mean you buy the book and then you are not even legally allowed to cut out the pages you like? Insane.

Originally Posted By: kevinb

Despite the somewhat handwritten look, I imagine that the Hal Leonard RealBook is eletronically typeset, and a PDF (or similar) format from the publisher would offer better quality than a scan, particularly if you wanted (e.g.,) to print it at a different size than the original. The problem is that, from the publisher's perspective, PDFs almost have to be cripplingly expensive, because they know that hundreds of bootleg copies will circulate for each legitimate sale.

Of course, this isn't a problem that is particular to music publishing -- ebook publishers in general have had to grapple with it, with greater or less success.



They are a bit slow off the mark and missing out on a trick I think. Electronic versions of the real books are already common but probably illegal just like the original real book was.

A lot of people are using the ireal book iphone app these days, but it is chords only as chords are uncopyrightable (I think). It plays the sequences as well so it is good for practice. Only £5.50 as well so good value (as long as you already have the rather expensive dongle. I don't).
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/davebeeboss

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#1715791 - 07/18/11 04:08 PM Re: Is it legal to sell advanced transcriptions of songs? [Re: beeboss]
kevinb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 1565
Originally Posted By: beeboss

That is mad, you mean you buy the book and then you are not even legally allowed to cut out the pages you like? Insane.


You can cut the pages out, draw flowers on them, burn them, whatever. What you can't lawfully do is copy them. The post above was about taking the pages out to scan them into some electronic format, which amounts to taking a copy.

Many sheet music publications are now printed with a copying warning on every single page, in case people don't get the message smirk


Quote:
A lot of people are using the ireal book iphone app these days, but it is chords only as chords are uncopyrightable (I think).



I think that if that were the case, the original under-the-counter fakebooks would not have presented the problems they did. It appears to be pretty well established that a chord progression in itself is not capable of amounting to anybody's intellectual property. But chords with a melody, or chords with lyrics -- that's a different matter.

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