Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Topic Options
#1699108 - 06/21/11 02:27 AM Changing partials after (or by) voicing bass hammers
Mark R. Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 1866
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
This is a follow-on from another topic (m21).

BDB wrote in that topic, and others confirmed, that the partial structure [Edit: or even the pitch of some partials?] of bass notes can change after voicing the hammers.

I'd like to ask whether one can actually turn this around, i.e.:

Can one control the partial structure, e.g. improve mismatched bichords, by voicing the hammer, and if so, how?

Background information:
My Ibach has a mismatched bichord at F3. Granted, this is the highest note on the bass bridge, and might not be so amenable to "partials voicing", but I wanted to ask nevertheless... The irritating aspect is that of all the partials, it's the fifth that is beating when the unison is in tune. That puts me in a quandary as to which of the two strings to use for setting a temperament, especially when using CM3s.


Edited by Mark R. (06/21/11 02:29 AM)
Edit Reason: given in post
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

Top
(ad 568) Win a Year Journal Subscription
Win a year subscription to the PTG Journal
#1699118 - 06/21/11 02:53 AM Re: Changing partials after (or by) voicing bass hammers [Re: Mark R.]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20766
Loc: Oakland
If one string of a bichord does not match the other, something is wrong with one of the strings. You have to replace them both.

There is more than one thing that can be wrong, and you need the right solution for the problem.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#1699121 - 06/21/11 02:54 AM Re: Changing partials after (or by) voicing bass hammers [Re: Mark R.]
delacey-simms Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/14/08
Posts: 114
Loc: Kirkbymoorside N.Yorks UK
That's really interesting. I hate it when that happens and it seems to me that it's when the copper windings are not exactly the same length. In the past on really bad cases I have had both strings re-made by my maker, which solved the problem 100% but cost the customer the price of a tuning.
I wait with interest to see if voicing the hammer can subdue this
_________________________
delacey-simms
piano tuner, technician and enthusiast.
All my comments are posted with the utmost respect to the other technicians

Top
#1699122 - 06/21/11 02:55 AM Re: Changing partials after (or by) voicing bass hammers [Re: Mark R.]
delacey-simms Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/14/08
Posts: 114
Loc: Kirkbymoorside N.Yorks UK
BDB that's spooky, we thought that at exactly the same time!
_________________________
delacey-simms
piano tuner, technician and enthusiast.
All my comments are posted with the utmost respect to the other technicians

Top
#1699226 - 06/21/11 09:28 AM Re: Changing partials after (or by) voicing bass hammers [Re: Mark R.]
Mark R. Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 1866
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Many of the bichords in this piano are slightly unequal in wound length - and yet, F3 is the only one that actually presents a clearly beating partial. There are a few others that are difficult to tune "clean", but none of them presents one clearly beating partial.

Anyway, I'm considering to try a pitch-lock-type spring for starters. And of course, replacement is the surest solution. I was just wondering... because it's in my nature to try and trace defects to rectify or compensate them, rather than simply "chuck out the old one and buy a new one".

(Hex core bass strings, by the way.)
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

Top
#1699402 - 06/21/11 02:55 PM Re: Changing partials after (or by) voicing bass hammers [Re: Mark R.]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3036
Loc: Madison, WI USA
I think the pitch lock idea is a good one for a low cost, non-invasive solution.

Voicing does not change inharmonicity or the pitch of any partials. It can only suppress or enhance them. Inharmonicity is determined by string length, tension and wire mass. Certainly, if you have two wound strings and one has more winding than the other, their inharmonicity will be different and cause a tuning problem.

Depending on how long the swedge is, you may be able to peel off enough of the winding on the longer one to make the two match.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

Top
#1699476 - 06/21/11 05:45 PM Re: Changing partials after (or by) voicing bass hammers [Re: Mark R.]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20766
Loc: Oakland
If the two strings do not match, it is caused by something wrong with the quality of the winding of one of them, not the length of the winding. Most of us technicians have seen mismatched strings that sound fine, and matched strings that have problems.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
Download & Print Sheet Music Instantly
sheet music search
sheet music search

sheet music search
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
145 registered (ando, alfredo capurso, Almaviva, 36251, 51 invisible), 1497 Guests and 38 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
74264 Members
42 Forums
153616 Topics
2251429 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Understanding Sharps
by imustlearn
12 minutes 58 seconds ago
When a beginner is not a beginner anymore?
by Eight Octaves
21 minutes 55 seconds ago
DEBUSSY-"Serenade for the Doll" from 'Children's Corner'
by Hal Freedman
Today at 07:14 PM
Worth buying a new digital piano as a controller?
by slickvguy
Today at 05:49 PM
Video clip for classical music?
by Nikolas
Today at 05:43 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission