Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician
SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
Ad (Piano Sing)
How to Make Your Piano Sing
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
Who's Online
60 registered (AndyJoe, AndyP, AZNpiano, Artur Gajewski, 12 invisible), 1161 Guests and 15 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Topic Options
#1699108 - 06/21/11 02:27 AM Changing partials after (or by) voicing bass hammers
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2069
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
This is a follow-on from another topic (m21).

BDB wrote in that topic, and others confirmed, that the partial structure [Edit: or even the pitch of some partials?] of bass notes can change after voicing the hammers.

I'd like to ask whether one can actually turn this around, i.e.:

Can one control the partial structure, e.g. improve mismatched bichords, by voicing the hammer, and if so, how?

Background information:
My Ibach has a mismatched bichord at F3. Granted, this is the highest note on the bass bridge, and might not be so amenable to "partials voicing", but I wanted to ask nevertheless... The irritating aspect is that of all the partials, it's the fifth that is beating when the unison is in tune. That puts me in a quandary as to which of the two strings to use for setting a temperament, especially when using CM3s.


Edited by Mark R. (06/21/11 02:29 AM)
Edit Reason: given in post
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

Top
(ad PTG 757) The Value of PTG Membership
The Value of a PTG Membership
#1699118 - 06/21/11 02:53 AM Re: Changing partials after (or by) voicing bass hammers [Re: Mark R.]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21826
Loc: Oakland
If one string of a bichord does not match the other, something is wrong with one of the strings. You have to replace them both.

There is more than one thing that can be wrong, and you need the right solution for the problem.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#1699121 - 06/21/11 02:54 AM Re: Changing partials after (or by) voicing bass hammers [Re: Mark R.]
delacey-simms Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/14/08
Posts: 114
Loc: Kirkbymoorside N.Yorks UK
That's really interesting. I hate it when that happens and it seems to me that it's when the copper windings are not exactly the same length. In the past on really bad cases I have had both strings re-made by my maker, which solved the problem 100% but cost the customer the price of a tuning.
I wait with interest to see if voicing the hammer can subdue this
_________________________
delacey-simms
piano tuner, technician and enthusiast.
All my comments are posted with the utmost respect to the other technicians

Top
#1699122 - 06/21/11 02:55 AM Re: Changing partials after (or by) voicing bass hammers [Re: Mark R.]
delacey-simms Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/14/08
Posts: 114
Loc: Kirkbymoorside N.Yorks UK
BDB that's spooky, we thought that at exactly the same time!
_________________________
delacey-simms
piano tuner, technician and enthusiast.
All my comments are posted with the utmost respect to the other technicians

Top
#1699226 - 06/21/11 09:28 AM Re: Changing partials after (or by) voicing bass hammers [Re: Mark R.]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2069
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Many of the bichords in this piano are slightly unequal in wound length - and yet, F3 is the only one that actually presents a clearly beating partial. There are a few others that are difficult to tune "clean", but none of them presents one clearly beating partial.

Anyway, I'm considering to try a pitch-lock-type spring for starters. And of course, replacement is the surest solution. I was just wondering... because it's in my nature to try and trace defects to rectify or compensate them, rather than simply "chuck out the old one and buy a new one".

(Hex core bass strings, by the way.)
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

Top
#1699402 - 06/21/11 02:55 PM Re: Changing partials after (or by) voicing bass hammers [Re: Mark R.]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3295
Loc: Madison, WI USA
I think the pitch lock idea is a good one for a low cost, non-invasive solution.

Voicing does not change inharmonicity or the pitch of any partials. It can only suppress or enhance them. Inharmonicity is determined by string length, tension and wire mass. Certainly, if you have two wound strings and one has more winding than the other, their inharmonicity will be different and cause a tuning problem.

Depending on how long the swedge is, you may be able to peel off enough of the winding on the longer one to make the two match.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

Top
#1699476 - 06/21/11 05:45 PM Re: Changing partials after (or by) voicing bass hammers [Re: Mark R.]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21826
Loc: Oakland
If the two strings do not match, it is caused by something wrong with the quality of the winding of one of them, not the length of the winding. Most of us technicians have seen mismatched strings that sound fine, and matched strings that have problems.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!

Happy Thanksgiving!
Happy Thanksgiving!
(ad) Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
(ad) Piano Music Sale - Dover Publications
Piano Music Sale
Sheet Music Plus (125)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Black Friday is here - Seen any deals?
by MeghanM
11/28/14 01:16 AM
MIDI in on a Kawai VPC-1...
by pocoapoco
11/28/14 12:35 AM
Just joined
by wise_manzard
11/27/14 10:20 PM
LACHNIT MK22
by Vas
11/27/14 09:27 PM
You Usually Get what you Pay for in this World.......
by Paul678
11/27/14 08:22 PM
Forum Stats
77071 Members
42 Forums
159411 Topics
2341699 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
Gift Ideas for Music Lovers!
Find the Perfect Gift for the Music Lovers on your List!
Visit our online store today.

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission