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Depending on parents' budgets I either recommend they get either

a) the bottom of range Yamaha Arius (YPD 141)/Casio Celviano (AP220)/ or Kawai CN23

or

b) the clp 470/480 or Roland HP307/305. I don't recommend the mid-range models as they don't provide any significant improvement on the YPD 141/AP220 etc. As far as sounding like an acoustic I personally do not like the sound of Rolands, but this is a personal preference which I let my students know about, but which doesn't stop me from recommending the hp305/307 (the "supernatural" sound is quite good and a big improvement on the previous system), especially as the string resonance in the Rolands is far superior to the string resonance in the Yamaha pianos.

As regards similarly priced acoustics I would not recommend any acoustic instrument in that price range (although occasionally there are some surprising deals on second-hand yamaha U-series) and in fact recommend that if they do not have an appropriate budget they should buy a digital as the digitals are in fact better than the cheaper uprights in terms of learning. The main reason is that parents who complain about the price of a good upright will not be willing to pay for tuning every 6 months and will not be willing to pay for the small repairs which a cheap second-hand acoustic will surely need (e.g. new hammer felt/new strings). And there is nothing more distressing and demotivating for a student with a good ear than an out-of-tune instrument with uneven keys..

However, for students who want to progress to the higher levels it is imperative they get a good acoustic upright, and eventually a small (not tiny, but neither a performance instrument) grand. And it is essential that if they are playing 3/4 hours a day the piano will have to be tuned every 4/6 months. And parents need to understand that they need to invest to get the returns. What I would like to stress is that for the advanced player this is not just about "sound" but also things like touch/feel/resonance/the ability to play experimental music (including prepared piano/extended techniques).

thx for all those advices.
The piano is not for me or my child, but for my wife, who is a beginner student (she started piano lessons only a few months ago, one lesson/week).
For the moment, she practice at my parent's house (on a about 100 years old very beautifull and originaly high quality, but now very tired, Gaveau Piano), but it would be much better if she can work at home.
She work about 30 minutes/day and her teacher says she progress fast and have good abilities

In fact, i have 2 problems:
1- i'm affraid that it would be very difficult for an heavy acoustic piano to pass the door of my house... to be confirmed, but the space near the entry door of the house is clearly small, and windows are very high (like a second floor in fact)... so the piano transport will probably be very expensive, or maybe just impossible.
2- we clearly have a limited budget. many things to pay/do/buy in the next months and years... so we cannot spend thousands of euros for the piano... i would say we can reasonably spend 2000/2500 euros but not more.

For those 2 reasons, we think about choosing a digital piano rather than acoustic, even if my wife's teacher (a very good and very "classical culture" teacher) strongly advice to buy an acoustic piano. We were looking formerly at CLP 340, now more CLP470 or other products (kawai, roland) in the same pricerange... but we were just affraid about doing a mistake and choosing an instrument that would not fit any more my wife's expectations after juste 2 or 3 years.

Anyway, your former comment seams to confirm our position, even if of course, we should keep in mind we cannot expect the quality of a very good acoustic piano or Avantgrand with such products... no miracle... but if such DP is good enough for my wife to enjoy learning and progress for the few next years, that's ok!

While this may be true of the Casio instruments, I don't believe it's the case with other brands.

The Yamaha YDP-161 offers a superior keyboard action to the YDP-141, while heading in the opposite direction, the less expensive Kawai CL-25/CL-35 features an older keyboard action than the CN23. Elsewhere in the Kawai line-up, the CA13 features a highly respected wooden-key action, so there's actually quite a large differentiation throughout the product range. Roland also offer a three tiered approach, with entry-level models using the PHAII alpha action, mid-range instruments the PHAII action, and the higher-specification models using the PHAIII action.

Cheers,
James
x

I think people are emotionally invested in a major purchase and react like is. For instance I get irritated when people bash Yamaha grands when I am am head over heals with my C6. I hate the Clavinova sound, yet I own 2 Yamaha digits (pf 500 and cp33) and hate their sound as well, but they are bothh hooked up to a software piano, Synthogy Ivory, and I love them.

I don't think the author had an agenda... I agree with the Original post actually. Yamaha needs to upgrade their soundbanks at least to the level of the best software pianos out there.

Sorry for the typos. Typing on a tablet and cannot go back and scroll through the text box to edit the post.

I strongly believe that the real ultra high-end DP's like the Avantgrands which cost a massive amount, are purely luxury items for the more affluent amongst us, nothing more, there is no evidence that something so expensive is required for the more advanced pianist like OP claims, you can develop just the same on a Yamaha P95 in my opinion. The same goes for a Steinway D worth £100,000, I can see the benefit for a concert pianist in performance wise say to an audience on stage, and perhaps more importantly in the recording studio. But in terms of practicing on your own in your house, I believe almost anything will do, as long as it has fully weighted keys, 88 of them and at least some change in tone/timbre with regards to how hard you press the key, although the amount of samples etc.. does not matter that much.

uhm - Gyro? Is it you? Did you change your nick?

Hi mucci,

No, I don't think that mwf's post could be Gyro, since Gyro never has any contact info (or, anything else for that matter) in his "View profile" information, if you click on the member name.

On the other hand, mwf offers quite a bit of info about himself (including a YouTube link), if you want to check it out.

At home, I practice on a Yamaha P2. My piano teacher has a Yamaha baby grand (not sure which model). There is a very noticeable difference between the way I can play on these two pianos. On the P2 (which has pretty crappy action), I can not play with much expression. I could learn to play with flawless technicality, but to play with the emotion the music requires I need a more sophisticated action, such as my teacher's.

I could not disagree more, mwf. Practicing playing on an instrument that does not reflect the degree of expression you put into your playing, will help you no more than painting in black and white would prepare you to paint in colour. It is a pallid experience, and if you value your ability to express your feelings with nuance, you'll buy the best instrument you can afford.

maybe the right question is: "how many years (or more precisely hours) of lessons/practicing do you need to realy feel an require the difference?"

Yeah I know that mwf is not Gyro - It was just that his post sounded so similar...

for a pracitce instrument you dont need anything that good, unless youre not a very good musician, if you have the passion for playing and can play a piano well, you will play whatever you can on whatever instrument you can play on, no need to be fussy, lifes too short, get on with it...deal with it, just play bye.

Okay then, lets close down this forum, its useless, just get the next Classenti style piano (or lets get a roll-up) and you're done. No need to discuss pros and cons. Just play...

Everyone is asking the OP as if they are the expert and know more than anyone else about pianos/music, some of the things he/she has come out with are ridiculous. Like:

'If you're getting a digital to practice, you should be practicing with headphones. If you're practicing without headphones and no-one is complaining, you should be getting an acoustic instrument.'

rrrrrrright. That told us.

Just because they say they're a professional pianist/teacher does not mean they know what they are talking about. I would strongly advise anyone against listening to OP's advice, its too strict overall and negative towards the more affordable DP's. You must remember that you dont need a really expensive DP or an acoutic piano to progress as a pianist.

mwf - you are clearly incapable of debate: the whole point of forums and debate is to present and discuss opinions which differ from your own. All you seem to do is stamp your feet and cry out that what is written is wrong. Saying "I don't agree" does not constitute a debate: you need to justify your assertions.

So:

1) why don't you get yourself to a shop, try out the new yamahas and give us all a review; I promise I will make my students read your review (or indeed any other review) as well as my own.

2) if you really want to start a discussion on the pros and cons of students practicing on a digital piano, why don't you start a thread on the teacher's forum?

I'm no expert on DPs, but I've certainly had a wide experience of acoustic pianos. And I can categorically say that you won't be able to develop a full range of tone and sonority and technical skill on a cheap console-type vertical piano: I learnt on a cheap Yamaha of this type (until Grade 5 ABRSM) and it wasn't until I went to boarding school and continued my piano lessons on the big Yamaha uprights there that I developed what I'd call a proper keyboard technique. The little Yamaha I learnt on at home had a tinny, very bright sound which barely changed from p to ff, and its keys were far too light (and had a habit of not sounding/sticking on repeated notes, despite the piano being brand new), and its bass sounds were just amorphous thuds.

I'd have been better off with a DP in the same price range, which would have a far better and reliable action, and far bigger range of tone and far easier to control (though of course at the time DPs didn't exist...).

As for DPs today, most of the time you get what you pay for - including all the bells and whistles. As a classical pianist, I'd be looking out for a good piano action, fast repetition of keys, and wide range of tone, and no unnecessary flashing lights and knobs and levers (otherwise I suspect that's where the money is going on). And I'd be using my own headphones to compare the sounds between different DPs, not the DPs' own speakers (I think you'd find that using headphones, there's no difference in sound between the AvantGrands and the CLPs - thay all seem to be sampled from the same CF-IIIS) - after all that's one of the main reasons to buy a DP rather than an acoustic.

You cant say anything 100% bennevis, there is no definate answer, and youre not right saying someone cant develop a full range of tone and sonority and technical skill on a cheap console piano, how do you know that for certain, to me thats nonsense, and anything is possible, people seem to be judging what they can or cannot do rather than what others may be capable of, how do you know what someone is capable of?

mwf: The limitations he speaks of are those of the digital piano. There's no disputing that the digital cannot match an acoustic piano's full range of expression.

If I were recommending a digital piano to a cost conscious purchaser, I'd recommend the Roland RD-700NX with a pair of Sennheiser HD-600 headphones. The acoustic pianos sound very good. The SuperNatural features are a vast improvement over the 5 velocity layers of the CLP-380. The action, while a little light, is very responsive. And the internal amp is powerful enough to drive the low impedance Sennheisers with the volume slider at 50 percent. You can get a lot of fruitful practicing done on this sort of set up. I'd also recommend having some version of Pianoteq available because -- artificial as it sometimes sounds -- it provides a palette of nuance that is very useful. I've been practicing Mozart with it lately, and it allows for subtleties that many digitals and software pianos obscure. Also, the Pianoteq interface is really good. One favorite feature: You can record and playback very easily, which I find to be a helpful practice aid.

I provide the above recommendation, having owned and "tested" the following products: (i) a Steinway B, (ii) a CLP-380, (iii) an AvantGrand N2, (iv) Pianoteq, (v) Garritan Steinway D, (vi) Steinberg Grand 3, (vii) Ivory II, (viii) Galaxy Vintage D.

A couple years ago -- before the AvantGrand was in stores -- I purchased a CLP-380. I think I paid more than $6k, but less than $7k. I found that model disappointing for several reasons.

First, the tuning. Through high quality headphones (Sennheiser HD 580 and HD 600), it was clear that the tuning of some individual notes on the CLP-380 was off. I specifically remember that playing the first note of La Fille aux Cheveux de Lin just made my teeth gnash. (This would be 2 d-flats above middle c, at the lowest velocity layer -- through headphones, mind you.)

Second, the keyboard had an odd quality to it that made its touch unrealistic compared to an acoustic. The initial touch weight of the key was too heavy, so that in quiet chordal passages, it was not possible to play all notes cleanly. These types of quiet block cords are all over Debussy's music. (Employing my hazy recollection of high school physics, I think I could say -- by way of analogy or metaphor -- that the touch of the CLP-380 is as though the ratio of the coefficient of static friction to the coefficient of kinetic friction was too high, compared to a decent acoustic grand. Compared to a typical properly-regulated grand action, you have to apply too much pressure on the CLP-380 to get the key to start travelling which means the key is sometimes travelling too fast once it starts moving. The keys on the CLP-380 thus don't "fall" under the weight of your fingers; rather, you have to give them a little push to get them going.)

I found these two factors kind of depressing. The "off" tuning meant I had to turn to software pianos, but the "off" touch made the software pianos difficult to play.

When the AvantGrands came out, I decided to trade up, because the dealer would credit my original purchase price of the CLP-380 towards the AvantGrand. I purchased an N2. The cost of the upgrade was about $4k, which I thought was a pretty good deal for the following reasons: (1) The tuning of the N2 is fabulous. I've had piano tuners, curious about the Avant, comment that the Avant's tuning is very impressive. Evidently, the ascending beat rates of sixths work exactly as they should; this is not something I, myself, can discern. By contrast, the tuning on some of the software pianos is evidently not as accurate. (Pianoteq, however, is evidently a perfectly in-tune piano. The Avant, I am told, rivals Pianoteq in terms of the quality of its tuning.) (2) The action of the N2 is fabulous. It plays like a grand -- a GOOD grand.

Having said all the above, I'm writing this post to pass on my own experience. If I were starting from scratch, I'd get the Roland RD-700NX with the stand recommended by Roland and the Sennheiser headphones recommended above. I'd consider Pianoteq too, for the reasons mentioned. And I'd then start figuring out how to get access to a good acoustic from time to time in order to make sure that I was creating music and not unwittingly pounding out dictation.