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#1704492 - 06/29/11 06:39 PM Re: Definitions [Re: pianojerome]
wr Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 5429
Originally Posted By: pianojerome
Originally Posted By: bennevis
I'm obviously the wrong generation grin to know about these things - but maybe the use of the word 'song' as a generic term for everything (including the kitchen sink) might be due to the advent of digital keyboards and pianos. The display on these things say 'song', whether it's a factory demo classical piece, or it's something you've played and recorded. (I only discovered this when I bought my DP last year, and it annoyed me no end that everything was a 'song' mad).

Any comments from the younger sages out there?


This could be, but then my question is: why does the display on such keyboards call everything a "song"? Why doesn't it say "composition", or "piece", or "recording", or some other word instead?

The same question can be asked about iTunes. Why does iTunes call everything a "song", instead of using some other more inclusive word?


I am guessing here (a somewhat informed guess), but I think most of the current usage in keyboards, computers, and the internet is derived from usage in early sequencing programs and MIDI. It is probably traceable to a few poor decisions made by very few people. Researching it is probably possible, but time-consuming. The story might make for an interesting magazine article.

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#1704527 - 06/29/11 07:50 PM Re: Definitions [Re: wr]
NeilOS Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/13/06
Posts: 451
Loc: Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: pianojerome
Originally Posted By: bennevis
I'm obviously the wrong generation grin to know about these things - but maybe the use of the word 'song' as a generic term for everything (including the kitchen sink) might be due to the advent of digital keyboards and pianos. The display on these things say 'song', whether it's a factory demo classical piece, or it's something you've played and recorded. (I only discovered this when I bought my DP last year, and it annoyed me no end that everything was a 'song' mad).

Any comments from the younger sages out there?


This could be, but then my question is: why does the display on such keyboards call everything a "song"? Why doesn't it say "composition", or "piece", or "recording", or some other word instead?

The same question can be asked about iTunes. Why does iTunes call everything a "song", instead of using some other more inclusive word?


I am guessing here (a somewhat informed guess), but I think most of the current usage in keyboards, computers, and the internet is derived from usage in early sequencing programs and MIDI. It is probably traceable to a few poor decisions made by very few people. Researching it is probably possible, but time-consuming. The story might make for an interesting magazine article.


It's because the majority of these users are in fact interested in songs (contemporary, pop, etc.) and the technology grew out of that interest.


Edited by NeilOS (06/29/11 08:34 PM)
_________________________
Concert Pianist, University Professor, Private Teacher in Los Angeles
Blog: "Piano Technique Demystified" at PianoTeacherLosAngeles.com

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#1704532 - 06/29/11 08:03 PM Re: Definitions [Re: Tango]
Bech Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/24/10
Posts: 787
Loc: California
If you hum as you play are you playing a song or a piece?

Bech
_________________________
Music. One of man's greatest inventions. And...for me, the piano expresses it best.

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#1704535 - 06/29/11 08:04 PM Re: Definitions [Re: Tararex]
NeilOS Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/13/06
Posts: 451
Loc: Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: Tararex
Why?

Because the birds outside my window do not break into arrangements. The sound of a stream breaking over rocks is not a piece. Yes song is voice, but a voice may be anything musical.

Dead notes on paper are a piece, a composition, an arrangement. Once brought to life through voice, be that an orchestra, a piano or even pebbles tumbling down a country road after a pick-up - those notes are now song.

Precision has its place but sometimes the most precise use is the colloquial.

Imagine a romantic setting – the sun's waning rays warming an ebony piano. A young woman with limpid blue eye sits at the foot of a piano. She asks her love, “play an arrangement for me darling”.

Doesn't sound quite right does it? How about “play a piece for me darling”. Eh, that just sounds slightly obscene, yes? Because we all know he must play for her, what? A song.


Sorry to disagree, but one sings a song. Birds sing birdsong, darling asks her lover to "strum out a tune," or "play Melancholy Baby" or play a song, not meaning Op. 10, No. 1, unless she wants to ask for a Beethoven sonata.

I think you are caught up in the romantic notion described as being "on wings of song," which can be almost anything expressive, including poetry. You may certainly say you went to the symphony concert and enjoyed all the songs, but you won't be communicating.


Edited by NeilOS (06/29/11 08:30 PM)
_________________________
Concert Pianist, University Professor, Private Teacher in Los Angeles
Blog: "Piano Technique Demystified" at PianoTeacherLosAngeles.com

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#1704536 - 06/29/11 08:05 PM Re: Definitions [Re: wr]
Andromaque Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/08
Posts: 3534
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: wr

First of all, I don't always strive to make my piano "sing" - I'm with Bartok on that point.

But youngsters who are interested in classical music need to know the correct usage, if for no other reason than that it remains the usage in classical music. That is, you don't (and I hope, won't) see a collection of Brahms shorter piano works with the title of "Collected Shorter Songs for Piano by Brahms".

And of course, the current usage isn't retroactive, so youngsters won't be seeing it when they read older writing about music.


I can assure you that them youngsters will understand older usages of musical terms when and if they get to read about them. If not, Google translate or a futuristic version thereof will translate from older English..

In the mean time, too much Bartok can hurt your ears*. Some cantabile will do you a world of good.

* I happen to have listened to Op. 14 today played by Bela himself. I had forgotten how interesting that piece is. Uncommon tonalities.

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#1704542 - 06/29/11 08:17 PM Re: Definitions [Re: Tararex]
NeilOS Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/13/06
Posts: 451
Loc: Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: Tararex
Yes, in the rarefied atmosphere of learning I agree students must understand general terminology. However, "song" is the one word that represents the soul of an idea - the idea of music.

"Music" as a word simply sounds too harsh ("Play music for me" seems more a command than request.) "piece" is plagued by sketchy alternative meanings, "arrangement" is too dry and "composition" completely lifeless.

Song it must be. There is no acceptable substitute. Perhaps the experts should get together to create a new and beautiful sounding musical word. One that will keep the wordsmiths' hackles down while still conveying the magic of all song.


"Music" is a beautiful word. Prima la musica. An die Musik.

I suspect you are misusing the other terms.


Edited by NeilOS (06/29/11 08:27 PM)
_________________________
Concert Pianist, University Professor, Private Teacher in Los Angeles
Blog: "Piano Technique Demystified" at PianoTeacherLosAngeles.com

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#1704543 - 06/29/11 08:20 PM Re: Definitions [Re: Bech]
NeilOS Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/13/06
Posts: 451
Loc: Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: Bech
If you hum as you play are you playing a song or a piece?

Bech


You're probably playing Bach, ala Glenn Gould.
_________________________
Concert Pianist, University Professor, Private Teacher in Los Angeles
Blog: "Piano Technique Demystified" at PianoTeacherLosAngeles.com

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#1704727 - 06/30/11 03:56 AM Re: Definitions [Re: Tango]
bennevis Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 1401
I'm looking forward to the concert I'm attending tonight of some nice songs. One of them is Rachmaninoff's 3rd Piano Concerto played by Denis Matsuev.

Or do I mean the trilogy of songs by Rachmaninoff?

Or 'Triptych' (to go high-brow)? grin

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#1704842 - 06/30/11 10:38 AM Re: Definitions [Re: bennevis]
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9849
Originally Posted By: bennevis
I'm looking forward to the concert I'm attending tonight of some nice songs. One of them is Rachmaninoff's 3rd Piano Concerto played by Denis Matsuev.

Or do I mean the trilogy of songs by Rachmaninoff?

Or 'Triptych' (to go high-brow)? grin


No, you're going to hear a *symphony*, of course!

(That's like "just between you and I". People think they're smart by calling anything played by an orchestra a "symphony"!)
_________________________
Sam

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#1705142 - 06/30/11 06:23 PM Re: Definitions [Re: NeilOS]
Tararex Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 218
Loc: Middle Georgia, USA
Hello,

Not the first nor the last time I will be accused of misuse. At this point in my life it's become a natural hazard born of occupation to survey with wider boundaries than most. Music is indeed a beautiful word "inspired by the muse". Now exactly which muse are we discussing?

I entirely support consistent music theory using "song" as pertaining only to pieces involving human voice. It's song's informal use garnering grammatical complaint that reeks of affectation and misguided proof of esoteric knowledge.

As a music student I fully support proper definition and use in a learning environment. As a member of the general public I keep my mouth shut if someone nearby says they enjoyed "all the songs" where there were none.

I believe as a teacher you are correct for the right reasons in answering the original thread question.

I also believe those complaining about the use of song=any music being a no-excuses grammatical error need to, well...I believe the old saying is "Lighten up Francis".

Kind regards,

Tararex
_________________________
“Intellectual passion dries out sensuality,” Da Vinci
Learning: A bunch of good stuff

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#1705158 - 06/30/11 06:56 PM Re: Definitions [Re: Tararex]
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9849
Originally Posted By: Tararex
It's song's informal use garnering grammatical complaint that reeks of affectation and misguided proof of esoteric knowledge.


Is it esoteric knowledge that there are different words for different kinds of music, other than "song"?

Tell an elementary school student that there are different words for music which is sung and music which is played on an instrument. They'll get it. Tell them that there's a difference between an opera (singing, orchestra, theater), a choral piece (just a choir), and a song (singer with a band). They'll get it. I did when I was that age. It's not esoteric.
_________________________
Sam

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#1705176 - 06/30/11 07:30 PM Re: Definitions [Re: Tararex]
NeilOS Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/13/06
Posts: 451
Loc: Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: Tararex
Hello,

Not the first nor the last time I will be accused of misuse. At this point in my life it's become a natural hazard born of occupation to survey with wider boundaries than most. Music is indeed a beautiful word "inspired by the muse". Now exactly which muse are we discussing?

I entirely support consistent music theory using "song" as pertaining only to pieces involving human voice. It's song's informal use garnering grammatical complaint that reeks of affectation and misguided proof of esoteric knowledge.

As a music student I fully support proper definition and use in a learning environment. As a member of the general public I keep my mouth shut if someone nearby says they enjoyed "all the songs" where there were none.

I believe as a teacher you are correct for the right reasons in answering the original thread question.

I also believe those complaining about the use of song=any music being a no-excuses grammatical error need to, well...I believe the old saying is "Lighten up Francis".

Kind regards,

Tararex


Well, okay, here I am lightening up. But there's a difference between informal use and misuse. Misusing the word song is not a grammatical error. It's more akin to a malapropism. And that's all I have to say about it.


Edited by NeilOS (06/30/11 07:33 PM)
_________________________
Concert Pianist, University Professor, Private Teacher in Los Angeles
Blog: "Piano Technique Demystified" at PianoTeacherLosAngeles.com

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#1705204 - 06/30/11 08:19 PM Re: Definitions [Re: Tango]
Gyro Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 4521
I fail to see why classical pianists are such fans of the word "piece." This has unpleasant connotations in English. Couldn't they have come up with better word?


Edited by Gyro (06/30/11 08:20 PM)

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#1705213 - 06/30/11 08:40 PM Re: Definitions [Re: Gyro]
NeilOS Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/13/06
Posts: 451
Loc: Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: Gyro
I fail to see why classical pianists are such fans of the word "piece." This has unpleasant connotations in English. Couldn't they have come up with better word?


Evil is in the eye of the beholder.
_________________________
Concert Pianist, University Professor, Private Teacher in Los Angeles
Blog: "Piano Technique Demystified" at PianoTeacherLosAngeles.com

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#1705245 - 06/30/11 09:18 PM Re: Definitions [Re: Gyro]
ando Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 1509
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
What's unpleasant about the word "piece"? It sounds fine to me.

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#1705250 - 06/30/11 09:24 PM Re: Definitions [Re: Gyro]
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9849
Originally Posted By: Gyro
I fail to see why classical pianists are such fans of the word "piece." This has unpleasant connotations in English. Couldn't they have come up with better word?


"Piece of art"

"Piece of furniture"

"Piece of pizza"

"Piece of writing"

"Piece of technology"

"Piece of land"

"Piece of a puzzle"


The word "piece" is not limited to classical music; it is extremely common, in many different contexts, and it only rarely comes with negative connotations.
_________________________
Sam

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#1705317 - 06/30/11 11:10 PM Re: Definitions [Re: gooddog]
david_a Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 2881
Originally Posted By: gooddog
My nagging succeeded in making them aware of correct speech and the implications of speaking poorly. It also gave them a chameleon-like tool to use in certain social situations.
Every person who is a member of different social groups that have different language expectations possesses this chameleon-like tool - it doesn't come from any special effort on the part of their parents. The young people littering their job interviews with "like" and "you know" haven't yet become members of a social group that rejects those things, but they very quickly will - and with surprisingly little effort.

Every time I go back to my home town, I find myself speaking in my mother's accent. I never even knew it WAS an accent, until I moved and got a new one. smile
_________________________
(I'm a piano teacher.)

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#1705432 - 07/01/11 07:19 AM Re: Definitions [Re: Bech]
chercherchopin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/11
Posts: 550
Loc: Dystopia (but not Dystonia!)
Originally Posted By: Bech
If you hum as you play are you playing a song or a piece?

Bech

If it's a classical piece -- as opposed to, say, a piano arrangement of a pop song -- you're still playing a piece ... while humming a tune.
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