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#1709187 - 07/07/11 04:03 PM Re: David Stanwood Patent (SALA) [Re: Piano World]
Rich Galassini Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 8974
Loc: Philadelphia/South Jersey
Roy,

All that aside and speaking as a player - it is very sweet.
_________________________
Rich Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co.
Phila, Pa.
Dir. Line (215) 991-0834
rich@cunninghampiano.com
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#1709196 - 07/07/11 04:33 PM Re: David Stanwood Patent (SALA) [Re: Piano World]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4182
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

While I am sure this could be applied in certain concert situations with different artists attending and performing I wonder about the common man who owns a grand piano.

Oh sure there will be the fellow with deep pockets who has to have the latest gadget…..

But really; thinking practically, how much does a full regulation of a grand action/keyboard cost with touch weighting? Certainly not 10K……

How many times can one regulate a grand action, adjust the keyboard before you get to 10K?

Reminds me of the self tuning piano gimmick…..I guess I am just too practical……..I can think of a LOT of things to spend 10K on and the way my piano plays would not be one of them.

Good players adjust their style to whatever instrument they encounter. When I played on the road you should see some of the pianos you have to sit in front of……absolute basket cases…..but you play them anyways….
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1709302 - 07/07/11 07:22 PM Re: David Stanwood Patent (SALA) [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
accordeur Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1109
Loc: Qubec, Canada
Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos

While I am sure this could be applied in certain concert situations with different artists attending and performing I wonder about the common man who owns a grand piano.

Oh sure there will be the fellow with deep pockets who has to have the latest gadget…..

But really; thinking practically, how much does a full regulation of a grand action/keyboard cost with touch weighting? Certainly not 10K……

How many times can one regulate a grand action, adjust the keyboard before you get to 10K?

Reminds me of the self tuning piano gimmick…..I guess I am just too practical……..I can think of a LOT of things to spend 10K on and the way my piano plays would not be one of them.

Good players adjust their style to whatever instrument they encounter. When I played on the road you should see some of the pianos you have to sit in front of……absolute basket cases…..but you play them anyways….


I agree totally. At 10,000$ it is a very small niche market, VERY small.

Make it a kit sold to techs for 1500$, that could work.

Or even better sell it to a manufacturer.

The concept is great I believe.
_________________________
Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

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#1709306 - 07/07/11 07:29 PM Re: David Stanwood Patent (SALA) [Re: Piano World]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4182
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
I agree. This is a great concept.

For something like this I would have developed the item, then after patent, give the entire thing to a manufacturer with a rights agreement of sales percentage for a period of time or forever.

A large manufacturer would shoulder the costs of units and could place these items in every dealership the next week….. then have their shop techs and sales team promote the item for outside sales.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1709308 - 07/07/11 07:34 PM Re: David Stanwood Patent (SALA) [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
accordeur Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1109
Loc: Qubec, Canada
Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos

I agree. This is a great concept.

For something like this I would have developed the item, then after patent, give the entire thing to a manufacturer with a rights agreement of sales percentage for a period of time or forever.

A large manufacturer would shoulder the costs of units and could place these items in every dealership the next week…..that would then have their shop techs and sales team promote the item for outside sales.


Yes
_________________________
Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

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#1709539 - 07/08/11 07:53 AM Re: David Stanwood Patent (SALA) [Re: accordeur]
CC2 and Chopin lover Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/06
Posts: 1981
I know David, and you can be sure he has approached major manufacturers with the SALA, as well as the Precision Touch Design. Unfortunately, as is true in a large portion of the piano technician community, there is a preponderance of tunnel vision and being "stuck in the past" among piano manufacturers as well.
_________________________
Piano Technician/Tuner

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#1709558 - 07/08/11 09:19 AM Re: David Stanwood Patent (SALA) [Re: CC2 and Chopin lover]
Rich Galassini Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 8974
Loc: Philadelphia/South Jersey
Originally Posted By: CC2 and Chopin lover
I know David, and you can be sure he has approached major manufacturers with the SALA, as well as the Precision Touch Design. Unfortunately, as is true in a large portion of the piano technician community, there is a preponderance of tunnel vision and being "stuck in the past" among piano manufacturers as well.


Although it is not my place to comment on this, I will say that there is already at least one manufacturer incorporating this system into their manufacturing as an option. And of - course the custom installations will always be available from a small consortium of well prepared installers.
_________________________
Rich Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co.
Phila, Pa.
Dir. Line (215) 991-0834
rich@cunninghampiano.com
Get Cunningham Piano Email Updates

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#1709567 - 07/08/11 09:39 AM Re: David Stanwood Patent (SALA) [Re: Piano World]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4789
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Rick, by any chance would this manufacturer be in the Keystone State?
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1709571 - 07/08/11 09:45 AM Re: David Stanwood Patent (SALA) [Re: UnrightTooner]
Rich Galassini Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 8974
Loc: Philadelphia/South Jersey
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Rick, by any chance would this manufacturer be in the Keystone State?


Jeff,

Actually, yes. But I was referring to a European manufacturer when I made the comment.
_________________________
Rich Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co.
Phila, Pa.
Dir. Line (215) 991-0834
rich@cunninghampiano.com
Get Cunningham Piano Email Updates

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#1709575 - 07/08/11 09:53 AM Re: David Stanwood Patent (SALA) [Re: Piano World]
Bob Newbie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/02/06
Posts: 1549
you just wait..once a major performing artist has and uses it, will be asked for, even as an option..just like a car..! Stanwoodie action, Steinbuler 7/8 key size..it takes "marketing", yesterday I heard a story on KYW radio on
Cunningham pianos..new craftsman?..well how else would I have known?..now of course this was a news story..but it could have been turned into a commercial ad?
how do we find out about anything these days, but from commercials! smile

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#1709608 - 07/08/11 11:16 AM Re: David Stanwood Patent (SALA) [Re: CC2 and Chopin lover]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1251
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: CC2 and Chopin lover
there is a preponderance of tunnel vision and being "stuck in the past" among piano manufacturers as well.


"Stuck in the past" is not the only factor hindering adoption. There are substantial issues with basic physics in implementing that approach that give people pause, as well. The current state of action touch design is similar to astronomy in the middle ages. There is much to be learned and techniques to be perfected.
_________________________
Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

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#1709661 - 07/08/11 12:32 PM Re: David Stanwood Patent (SALA) [Re: kpembrook]
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2313
Loc: Lowell MA
I don't see manufacturers stuck in the past at all.

Manufacturing faces certain challenges that, unless you are there in the highest levels of that business, you can not fully appreciate.

The manufacturers I am familiar with are very proactive if there is something they find that needs to be done.
_________________________
Has Anyone Seen My Glasses ?

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
www.finepianodevelopment.com

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#1710133 - 07/09/11 10:47 AM Re: David Stanwood Patent (SALA) [Re: CC2 and Chopin lover]
Roy123 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/04
Posts: 1693
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: CC2 and Chopin lover
I know David, and you can be sure he has approached major manufacturers with the SALA, as well as the Precision Touch Design. Unfortunately, as is true in a large portion of the piano technician community, there is a preponderance of tunnel vision and being "stuck in the past" among piano manufacturers as well.


Leaving aside the issue of tunnel vision, there is no reason for any manufacturer to license the precision touch design. It's a weak patent, and there are many ways for a manufacturer to achieve the identical results without infringement.

As for the SALA patent, the product may be so expensive that most pianos would be noncompetitive in their market segment if the cost of the SALA were added. I haven't really perused the patent, but there may be ways around it as well.

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#1710141 - 07/09/11 11:20 AM Re: David Stanwood Patent (SALA) [Re: Roy123]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1251
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Roy123
Originally Posted By: CC2 and Chopin lover
I know David, and you can be sure he has approached major manufacturers with the SALA, as well as the Precision Touch Design. Unfortunately, as is true in a large portion of the piano technician community, there is a preponderance of tunnel vision and being "stuck in the past" among piano manufacturers as well.


Leaving aside the issue of tunnel vision, there is no reason for any manufacturer to license the precision touch design. It's a weak patent, and there are many ways for a manufacturer to achieve the identical results without infringement.

As for the SALA patent, the product may be so expensive that most pianos would be noncompetitive in their market segment if the cost of the SALA were added. I haven't really perused the patent, but there may be ways around it as well.


I've played the SALA prototype. It is "interesting" and certainly required some remarkable ingenuity to design and construct. However, it's actual function is to increase or decrease the key velocity required to achieve a given hammer velocity -- and without compensating for the inherent mis-match between key and hammer travel travel that is necessarily introduced. Whether there is any living pianist on the planet who would find that worthwhile is the question at this point. It might serve as a test bed for action designers to gain valid empirical data about action ratios . . .

Unfortunately, its development seems to emerge from the widespread failure to understand that the piano action is about velocity, not weight.

The history of piano design is littered with patents for various features that were never implemented -- either because of some fatal flaw that the inventor was blind to but others were not or from failure to connect with the public in a way that created market demand. With the passage of time, we will see how this ingenious invention fares in the real world.
_________________________
Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

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#1710433 - 07/09/11 09:06 PM Re: David Stanwood Patent (SALA) [Re: Piano World]
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2313
Loc: Lowell MA
I agree with Roy, there are a lot of ways to accomplish the desired results without infringing on Davids patent.

Anyone who has read Davids compilation will realize that the entire beginning reinforces the fundamentals of basic design, friction and regulation, the documenting of and the perspective of those numbers.

Kieth, I don't agree that Davids work is driven by ignorance as you state. Davids new design could, let's say, address the key ratio difference between an average Baldwin Grand and the Current Mason and Hamlin. Both highly regarded actions and neither equated with some misunderstanding of velocity vs weight.
_________________________
Has Anyone Seen My Glasses ?

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
www.finepianodevelopment.com

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#1710443 - 07/09/11 09:55 PM Re: David Stanwood Patent (SALA) [Re: Larry Buck]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1251
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Larry Buck
Kieth, I don't agree that Davids work is driven by ignorance as you state. Davids new design could, let's say, address the key ratio difference between an average Baldwin Grand and the Current Mason and Hamlin. Both highly regarded actions and neither equated with some misunderstanding of velocity vs weight.


Often I am good at not being clear. shocked

Of course, I have no way to know what David Stanwood does or does not know -- and I shouldn't have written in a way that implies I do. Thanks for letting me clarify that. In any event-- regardless of the deficiencies in the current state of action touch modification, he certainly is to be applauded for popularizing a valid approach to measure and control friction in piano actions. His writings have certainly been helpful to me.

However, the general fact is that we are currently taking static measurements of weight -- even though that is largely irrelevant to the feel of an action in use. We are currently not able to take direct velocity measurements -- which does directly have to do with what the action feels like in use. Because we are measuring what we can measure -- instead of what should be measured -- actions are generally conceived of and treated as balance devices rather than velocity devices.

My suggestion is that the effect of the invention to vary the rate of key velocity to achieve a given hammer velocity was not well understood and was consistent with the general treatment and "knowledge" of action touch issues.
_________________________
Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

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#1710462 - 07/09/11 10:39 PM Re: David Stanwood Patent (SALA) [Re: kpembrook]
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2313
Loc: Lowell MA
Originally Posted By: kpembrook

Often I am good at not being clear. shocked
In any event-- regardless of the deficiencies in the current state of action touch modification, he certainly is to be applauded for popularizing a valid approach to measure and control friction in piano actions. His writings have certainly been helpful to me.generally conceived of and treated as balance devices rather than velocity devices.


I don't see any deficiencies in the current state of action touch modification.

Also, the difference between the, let's say, some typical Baldwin grands and the Current Mason and Hamlin Grand action design is exactly a realistic example of two greatly differing "velocity" examples.

Again both highly regarded actions and both very different.

The Baldwin, in the name if increased "velocity" has made some compromises. Those compromises don't work for everyone.

Weight is only one of several measurements needed to evaluate how an action will meet the needs of a particular client. Competent work includes all the considerations.




_________________________
Has Anyone Seen My Glasses ?

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
www.finepianodevelopment.com

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#1710877 - 07/10/11 05:25 PM Re: David Stanwood Patent (SALA) [Re: kpembrook]
Roy123 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/04
Posts: 1693
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: kpembrook
Originally Posted By: Larry Buck
Kieth, I don't agree that Davids work is driven by ignorance as you state. Davids new design could, let's say, address the key ratio difference between an average Baldwin Grand and the Current Mason and Hamlin. Both highly regarded actions and neither equated with some misunderstanding of velocity vs weight.


Often I am good at not being clear. shocked

Of course, I have no way to know what David Stanwood does or does not know -- and I shouldn't have written in a way that implies I do. Thanks for letting me clarify that. In any event-- regardless of the deficiencies in the current state of action touch modification, he certainly is to be applauded for popularizing a valid approach to measure and control friction in piano actions. His writings have certainly been helpful to me.

However, the general fact is that we are currently taking static measurements of weight -- even though that is largely irrelevant to the feel of an action in use. We are currently not able to take direct velocity measurements -- which does directly have to do with what the action feels like in use. Because we are measuring what we can measure -- instead of what should be measured -- actions are generally conceived of and treated as balance devices rather than velocity devices.

My suggestion is that the effect of the invention to vary the rate of key velocity to achieve a given hammer velocity was not well understood and was consistent with the general treatment and "knowledge" of action touch issues.


You are correct that static balance is not as important as moment of inertia in determining action feel. The contribution of the action to a piano's sound is principally affected by the hammer's impact velocity, hammer mass, the hammer's nonlinear spring constant, and the hammer's hysteresis--other things (such as scale design) being equal. The force required by the pianist to accelerate the hammer to some velocity is principally determined by the action's moment of inertia as reflected back to the pianist's finger. Hammer mass and action ratio are the principal determinants of this moment of inertia.


Edited by Roy123 (07/10/11 05:25 PM)

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#1710973 - 07/10/11 08:40 PM Re: David Stanwood Patent (SALA) [Re: Piano World]
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2313
Loc: Lowell MA
A typical and practical challenge would be rebuilding a Baldwin Grand Action. The 1951 Model F I have in my shop right now has a key ratio of 1.75:1 and six 1/2" leads in the entire bass section. Middle C has four 1/2 inch leads and so forth.

Down weight after regulation and friction work still was still averaging 56g.

Now, one might say the actions resulting higher ratio, is desirable. The general reaction to this piano is that it is somewhat heavier to play.

Compare this to the older G7's action I just did. Key ration there was 2.05:1. Even after the heavier hammers, there were only two 1/2" leads and one 3/8" leads in the bass and tapering off towards the treble.

The Baldwin key ratio at 1.75:1 epitomizes the challenge faced in rebuilding to suit the needs of the client. The general wish at times here is that we could move the balance rail, change the key ratio and remove a little lead.

The overall action ratio in the Baldwin is higher than in the Yamaha. Inertia in the Baldwin's key is also higher.

Many very well known and regarded makers use the 2:1 key ratio. This results in lower overall action ratios and no one is complaining about loss of velocity. It also allows for less lead in the keys. This lower inertia is something pianists are finding desirable.

I will admit, there is the discussion that a higher action ratio in conjunction with a lighter hammer yields a more controllable dynamic range for the pianist. This does rely on the pianist having had the training and technique to properly exploits this. These same pianists, due to proper training, are able to generate more velocity in general on any piano.

Davids new patent could be considered a natural "next step" when one has wrestled the the key ratio problem for many years. I am not championing his cause, just pointing out the interesting idea that it is.

It is my opinion that good belly work and scale design yields far greater controllable dynamic range than slight differences in action ratio.
_________________________
Has Anyone Seen My Glasses ?

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
www.finepianodevelopment.com

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#1711127 - 07/11/11 03:22 AM Re: David Stanwood Patent (SALA) [Re: kpembrook]
Mark R. Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 1865
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Originally Posted By: kpembrook
I've played the SALA prototype. It is "interesting" and certainly required some remarkable ingenuity to design and construct. However, it's actual function is to increase or decrease the key velocity required to achieve a given hammer velocity -- and without compensating for the inherent mis-match between key and hammer travel travel that is necessarily introduced.


(Text highlighted by me.)

Perhaps the prototype did not compensate, but such compensation is definitely covered in the patent: the key dip is changed by means of a "Compensation Angle", e.g. a modification to the underside of the keys (numbered item 100 in Fig. 9) or to the top surface of the balance rail.


Edited by Mark R. (07/11/11 03:27 AM)
Edit Reason: typo
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#1711348 - 07/11/11 01:22 PM Re: David Stanwood Patent [Re: CC2 and Chopin lover]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5065
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: CC2 and Chopin lover
It is possible to build on the wonderful fundamentals of the original piano design, while improving on some of the inherent shortcomings, to create a 21st century instrument that exceeds the performance of the traditional design. No one seems to "Yawn" when Del speaks of his design changes and concepts. The same open mindedness that accepts and appreciates his genius and efforts should be afforded to others who devote their lives to the improvement of piano design.

I don’t yawn either when I read of developments such as this. As you say, it is possible to build on the traditional concepts of piano design. And this applies to action design as well as the acoustical design of the instrument. Personally, I find this invention intriguing. I’ve not been able to spend much time studying it as yet, but I hope to in the future.

Will it ever become a mainstream feature? Who knows? There is a long road between invention and production. It will have to be life-tested and run through the wringer of the real world of piano abuse. But this will probably be the easiest part of the journey.

The more formidable task will be convincing manufacturers that they need it. The piano industry is not like most others; design evolution comes slowly and then only as a last resort. Where other industries are constantly looking for ways to evolve their products and come up with new ideas and new features—anything—to entice current owners back into the showrooms, the piano industry seems content with the one-shot sale. Keep making the same thing year after year, decade after decade, century after century and depend almost entirely on the first-time buyer for its existence.

Of course, at $10,000 this mechanism will have a very limited audience. But in production I don’t see it costing more than a few hundred to build. If that. I could be wrong; as I say, I’ve had very limited exposure to the mechanism but it doesn’t seem all that complex if done in production quantities on decent machinery. But we’re taking about an industry that finds it acceptable to use hardboard with a printed paper overlay instead of plywood as a structural backpanel because it saves about $0.47 per piano.

ddf
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

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#1711764 - 07/12/11 04:46 AM Re: David Stanwood Patent [Re: Piano World]
Mark R. Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 1865
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
I would be interested to know how much increased wear the SALA mechanism puts onto the balance rail punchings, because every time it is adjusted, the levers that carry the keys are moved across the punchings. Balance rail punchings being delicate as they are...
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#1712395 - 07/13/11 02:40 AM Re: David Stanwood Patent [Re: Mark R.]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5065
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
I would be interested to know how much increased wear the SALA mechanism puts onto the balance rail punchings, because every time it is adjusted, the levers that carry the keys are moved across the punchings. Balance rail punchings being delicate as they are...

This is the kind of thing only time (and life-testing) will determine.

ddf
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

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#1715400 - 07/17/11 11:55 PM Re: David Stanwood Patent [Re: Piano World]
Thomas Dowell Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/18/09
Posts: 122
Loc: Twin Lakes, WI
I was able to see, (but not play) a piano with this in it at the PTG Convention. I am not a great pianist by any means, but watched some other technicians who were higher level pianists (higher than me at least) play, and it was interesting to see how they reacted to different settings. One gentleman felt that the piano set on its lightest ratio was still "too light", but when the ratio was increased, aka the touch weight actually went up, the better response to his touch made the piano feel lighter, at least to him. It seems that for high level pianists, this would really allow them to have a completely custom feel for their piano.

The action was being used to demonstrate action rebuilding techniques during the convention, I think, as the piano was privately owned by a customer of Kent Swafford's. It was an incredible Steinway D, rebuilt by Ron Nossaman. I thought it was perhaps the best sounding piano at the convention, though it never was in the exhibit hall, but in classrooms being used for demonstrations.
_________________________
Thomas Dowell, R.P.T.
Dowell Piano
www.dowellpiano.com

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#1715813 - 07/18/11 04:46 PM Re: David Stanwood Patent [Re: Thomas Dowell]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1251
Loc: Michigan
The piano was one of the most impressive I've ever seen.

I played it. My brother, a pianist/music professor/tuner played it and I heard several other folk playing it. Sound quality, dynamic range . . . . WOW!!

The SALA seemed a bit strange. Not sure if it really accomplishes anything useful.
_________________________
Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

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#1715986 - 07/18/11 10:00 PM Re: David Stanwood Patent [Re: Piano World]
rysowers Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2340
Loc: Olympia, WA
I played the piano quite a bit - the SALA definitely has a dramatic effect on the touch. A small flat knob on the front of the keyframe makes the adjustment. The bass can be adjusted differently then the treble so that you can taper the touch if you like. A little scale on the keyframe tells you what the setting is: 1-5, 5 being the heaviest. My own preference was for the lightest setting possible.

Thanks to Kent Swafford, David Andersen, and David Stanwood for bringing this interesting new instrument to the conference. Being able chat with these guys face to face is always a privilege and a pleasure. By the way the piano was brought over from University of Missouri- Kansas City.

Wonderful instrument.
_________________________
Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net

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#1716077 - 07/19/11 12:58 AM Re: David Stanwood Patent [Re: rysowers]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1251
Loc: Michigan
Quote:
the SALA definitely has a dramatic effect on the touch


Not a universal assessment -- neither from the people at the convention that tried it nor, I understand, from the pianists at the venue where it is located. Certainly from the standpoint of basic physics, a given output velocity will always require the same energy input, no matter how it is sliced and diced.

Perhaps one reason for the discrepancy in perception has to do with the existence of unaccounted variables that are not detected in what are currently standard methods of action analysis. Some people may be sensitive to other variables that are being manipulated while others may not be.

_________________________
Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

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#1716193 - 07/19/11 07:48 AM Re: David Stanwood Patent [Re: kpembrook]
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2313
Loc: Lowell MA
Originally Posted By: kpembrook
Quote:
the SALA definitely has a dramatic effect on the touch


Not a universal assessment -- neither from the people at the convention that tried it nor, I understand, from the pianists at the venue where it is located. Certainly from the standpoint of basic physics, a given output velocity will always require the same energy input, no matter how it is sliced and diced.

Perhaps one reason for the discrepancy in perception has to do with the existence of unaccounted variables that are not detected in what are currently standard methods of action analysis. Some people may be sensitive to other variables that are being manipulated while others may not be.



Kieth,

Perhaps you would be willing to generously elaborate on your statement, which, by itself, is nothing more than a vague assertion that you yourself don't see the value.

Your opposing technical statements are rather sophomoric and more "salesman like".

Manufacturers use differing key ratios to accomplish their feel in their actions. The public definitely demonstrates their preference.

If your statement was true, then there would be no point in making anything different. This would be supported by the public saying they felt no usable differences between various manufacturers actions.

_________________________
Has Anyone Seen My Glasses ?

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
www.finepianodevelopment.com

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#1716199 - 07/19/11 07:59 AM Re: David Stanwood Patent [Re: kpembrook]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4789
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: kpembrook
....

Certainly from the standpoint of basic physics, a given output velocity will always require the same energy input, no matter how it is sliced and diced.

.....


So? Bicycles that have more than one gear ratio are still usually prefered.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1716293 - 07/19/11 11:09 AM Re: David Stanwood Patent [Re: UnrightTooner]
David Andersen Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/18/07
Posts: 15
Loc: Los Angeles
"Experience always replaces belief."

So---if you haven't put your hands on a SALA-equipped piano, please refrain from speculative fantasy.

I have seen over two dozen high-level players react to the SALA device in person. In each case there was the same reaction: "wow."

On last Wednesday, in Los Angeles, one of the most famous classical artists in the world played my SALA-fied Steinway D. He came from China to do two performances at the Hollywood Bowl, and he used my piano to record a PSA for the World Wildlife Fund.

He approved of the piano's tone and touch BEFORE the SALA device was shown to him. After he was shown it, he requested it to be set "lighter."
After it was set on the lightest setting, he started playing, smiled, and played all the way through his arrangement of "Ave Maria---" an eight-minute private concert for the technician (who was, understandably, choking back sobs a portion of that time.)

When he was done, he looked up, beaming, and said "Wow. Can this be done to any piano?"

Earlier in the session, in talking with the technician, the artist had said that differences in the touch of the actions he performed on were "the bane of my existence." Is there a need, or a desire, for something like SALA for this artist?

Yes. Everything we do as techs is for the player, for the artist. Mr. Stanwood and I have repeatedly seen artists get truly excited over the possibility of customizing piano touch in real time, and that is our real motivation.

Regarding price: there is a massive work load to create a custom SALA device and then install it in an excellent and custom way. All the parts of SALA are the finest available, either manufactured or custom. We are just beginning; the market will determine the eventual price; trust me when I say
the effort involved in producing the final installed product is considerable.

A huge thank-you to Kent Swofford, who co-rebuilt the D in Kansas City
(with Ron Nossaman) and installed the SALA device in it with mentoring and support form Mr. Stanwood. This instrument is the performance piano
for the UMKC Conservatory of Music. The leadership there, and Mr. Swofford, were fine with the installed price of SALA; there was no price pushback. They saw value.....

Full disclosure: I am a partner with Mr. Stanwood in SALA Pianos, Inc.
_________________________
David Andersen Pianos
www.davidandersenpianos.com

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