Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner Trills in Chopin

Do the trills in Chopin start on the principal note or the one above?

The short answer is : "It depends."

One longer answer - but perhaps not the only one - is supplied by Eleanor Bailie (p. 28) :

"'Plain' trills without prefixes are rather rare in Chopin, and the question of whether these should begin on the upper or main note must depend upon the taste and experience of performers within each context, and once again no definitive rules can be prescribed. J. Petrie Dunn ... takes the view that trills for which Chopin has given 'no direction ... should begin with the principal note, albeit there are some which, without detriment to the melodic line, might begin with the auxiliary note.' On the other hand, contemporary accounts suggest that Chopin considered that trills should begin on the upper note ...."

That's only the start of the discussion; it goes on to cite many examples where context determines where the trill starts.

Regards,

Never mind -- deleted.

If anybody wants my original message -- a real answer that built upon BruceD's, and guidance for finding further information based on what experts say instead of somebody who thinks that '87% of the time' is an appropriate answer -- then send me a PM.

+1

I'd say usually the principal note.

How much of the time?
Off the top of my head, 87%.

BTW: I'm not counting the ones where he puts little "grace note(s)" preceding the trill (i.e. the "prefixes" that Bruce mentioned), which make it a whole different story. And in those cases, it's also a bit up for grabs how to begin the trill -- like, are those grace notes on the beat or before it.

Chopin is full of mysteries.

+1 to the 'short answer'? That's nice, but it's really a matter of fact that 'it depends' -- not an opinion that needs validation.

What do you think of the 'long' answer contained in the references I provided?

Is it really just a matter of opinion to you -- 'usually the principal note' even without knowing the specific context -- or something so trivial that a completely facetious guess like like 87% is warranted?

Obviously I don't share your sense of humor -- but I do find it easier to accept that greater minds than ours have made lifelong study of matters such as this one. I think that people who ask serious questions about it ... like for instance the original poster here ... deserve serious answers.

That's what I tried to provide, and you ignored it completely. I swear, I don't know why I even bother sometimes.

There is an element of fashionableness about this topic. Even if we know this or that to be true through diligent research, perhaps it's sometimes better simply to go along with the current opinions/styles/fads in Chopin performance.

I pretty much stopped reading when I saw you say that something was "dispositive" on the subject. I don't believe in such a thing about things like this.


I thought it was clear that what I said was an attempt to cover the broad range of all contexts, except for what I noted.

In fact, it was.

And yes, I think it is largely a matter of opinion and taste, more so than scholarship, because the scholarship is not dispositive.


The "87%," as I think most people would gather, was a combination of facetious and serious -- facetious because such a precise number is impossible and absurd, but serious because I gave it some thought and it represented my best off-the-top-of-my-head estimate -- and I would hold to it pretty well.


True.
It's odd -- I think we share a great deal, yet differ greatly in some areas.


Right (perhaps) ....but I don't think their answers are necessarily better than ours, and they're certainly not "dispositive."


And I gave one.


A couple of things:

-- You expect that everyone who replies to a thread will reply to every prior reply? That would be a most odd expectation.

-- In this case there was a reason I didn't reply, as per the above.

P.S. No hard feelings, please. I'm sorry that my post upset you, as it evidently did. As I said, we do share a lot -- but in other ways, we're very different and see some things extremely differently.

Yes, there are hard feelings.

You have some compulsive traits that I just can't abide, like almost always imagining you're right, almost always having to put your $.02 in, and almost always having to have the last word.

If your goal is to feel like the biggest brain in a world of mental midgets, congratulations.

I have to put you back on my Ignore list, sorry.

Good move -- I appreciate it.

It is beyond me to understand that these posts upset you as they did. They were good posts.

Whoa! Everyone chill out! ^^
I thought I got good answers. Keep them coming!

Of course they were. You're incapable of anything less, are you not?

I thought so too. For a while anyway I did.

Hey, I thought you put me on ignore!
You're disappointing me!

BTW: No, I'm incapable of much more (if that's the way to put it).
But those were indeed good posts.

Mark never gives up Chercher, no point trying to intimidate him (you, he and I share a great deal in that context)!

Btw, it seems like we adults are much less well behaved than the minors on this forum. (I personally don't consider it a bad thing, but just saying..)

We are a world of mental midgets? Why, I resemble that remark!

Sure I do -- I'm giving up now!

Good for you, then! Your question apparently was less serious than I thought, and definitely didn't warrant the sort of detailed response (including citations) that I imagined that it did.

And I bet the best answer is yet to come, too! Paging Gryo!

I believe the "good answers" she refers to included yours, which you deleted in a fit of pique.

I don't quite understand why you took that page down. I looked though it when it was up, and found it useful.

Just put Mark on your ignore list if you want, thicken your skin, and put the page back up!

-J

Well it was a 'fit of pique', don't you know? Hey, Mark isn't the only 'shrink' here.

It especially included Cherchers and Bruce D.

,,,

Somebody here needs anger management classes. And just as a hint, it's sure isn't Mark C.

...

And now it's back down...

chercher, my friend, you've made many good contributions here...

But, you know, it's just an internet forum, so "live and let live", "don't worry be happy", "don't sweat the small stuff", etc...

-J

To the 14-year-old in the house, sorry you have to witness this.

I doubt that's what you really mean, any more than the other guy did who posted the passive-aggressive equivalent of a yawning emoticon did.

I really do appreciate all you well-meaning folks who think I need advice or platitudes about how to live successfully, but I believe your preoccupation is just a bit misplaced and misdirected.

BTW, the 14-year-old and I have exchanged PMs and are getting along just fine. When I was her age, lo those many decades ago, I was already acutely aware of just how prevalent a-holism is among adults. (Plus ça change?) Anyway, I wouldn't worry about her exposure to the way 'adults' treat one another an internet forum. If anything, it's preparation for how much uglier still interactions often are in the real world.

To those reveling in your illusions of maturity, though, I'd just offer some bromides of my own about glass houses, black pots and kettles, etc. By the way, the invitation to PM about what I posted and chose to retract still stands. No more pearls before sanctimonious swine here in this thread, sorry -- and more importantly, the material scanned from Paderewski may have infringed copyright.

Oh and p.s. Speaking of PMs, I've lost count of the number of ones I've received since joining about the 'shrink' who seems to garner so much unqualified respect here. They don't, apparently, feel free to dissent from those of you who worship at his altar built on an amateur's delusions of grandeur and a complete lack of self-awareness. Just sayin ... so don't even THINK of blaming me for the toxic atmosphere in the Pianist Corner that makes it notorious in the other areas of PW.

Well I'm sort of sorry I missed it.
Or maybe not.

Done with the passive aggressive emoticon since you didn't like that. Here's how you probably like it better:

I now believe there is a good reason why people shouldn't accept PM's. Fortunately, the 14 year old in question here has an excellent head on her shoulder and so I'm not too worried about her.

Also, anybody who sent you a PM about Mark (and so behind his back) is a coward. If they have something to say to the guy, say it to him on his face. Unqualified respect? So you get to decide if my respect for Mark is qualified or not? What makes you think you're qualified to make that call? What makes you think other people should tolerate you calling them swine?

I don't know if Mark has delusions of grandeur about him, but he's not the one who needs a shrink right now. I still haven't understood what pissed you off so much about Mark's post. If you think he doesn't make sense, you say so, and move on. Mark and I just did that in a recent thread. I disagreed completely with him, but I didn't end up calling him names. He then gave me some good advice in another thread where I asked for recommendations for teachers in Boston. In yet another thread, he told me about some issues with the Tempest 3rd that I was playing. I recognized them as valid issues when he explained them to me.

CCC, how long have you played the piano for? What is your performance experience? Based on your posts, I'm willing to bet that you haven't had a fraction of Mark's playing/musical experience. What is the level of repertoire that you currently play? I doubt you can walk the talk. In fact, I'm pretty sure of it. How do I know? I just know. Why is this relevant here? Its relevant because you've chosen to make such disparaging comments again Mark, who is an experienced amateur pianist and adds a lot of value to the discussions here, and so that requires the rest of us to question you on why you think you're so much superior to him and all the other "sanctimonious swine" on this thread.

Based on what you said about your age, I'm guessing you're about double my age. Act your age.

I've never experienced anything like that here (toward myself or anyone else), and I don't want it either.

Kiss my ***.

Or are you too busy kissing Mark's?

Or is your head stuck too far up your own?

They talk about us in other forums?

Its a pleasure to meet you as well Sotto Voce.

....what just happened here!?

It crossed my mind that it might be him but I thought I pretty well ruled it out. Maybe I shouldn't have.....but IMO it doesn't matter. Sotto voce was a good member and it was unfortunate that it didn't work out for him to stay. Chercher is also a good member, and I hope it'll work out for him to stay -- but obviously he needs to do better than he's doing now.

I put it down to too much Harry Potter. "I AM LORD VOLDEMORT" fantasies and that sort of thing.

Thread closed...