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#171310 - 10/22/06 03:24 PM Re: Cost of new Yamaha C2
w_scott_iv@yahoo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 1123
Loc: West Virginia
Best thing 'one' can do is buy something else. There are so many options for obtaining a good quality instrument. It's the public's perception that they must have a specific brand that allows manufacturers to dictate what some people consider to be unreasonable terms. Once buyers wise up (which will probably never happen in the general population) companies will have to compete on a more level playing field. It's our free enterprise system at work (or not quite working, depending upon your opinion). In the meantime, I'll look elsewhere for value and pass on my thoughts to those who ask my opinion. Hopefully this site will also introduce piano buyers to all of the options available to them.

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#171311 - 10/22/06 04:28 PM Re: Cost of new Yamaha C2
Giacomo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/07/06
Posts: 145

I cannot think of any industry that is not a "wantabe cartel". That's natural.
But few of them actually succeed in forming a cartel, and most cartels eventually break up even without government intervention.
How many cartels survive without government protection? I can think of oil (OPEC) and diamonds (De Beers), but nothing else.

Also, I am afraid you and I are not necessarily thinking of the same economic agents.

I'm thinking of competition between Yamaha and Kawai, and there I have reasons to suspect that price transparency is actually not unambiguously good for the consumer. Yamaha may be willing to give you a great deal to steal a customer from Kawai; but it would not do so if it knew that it would then forced to offer the same deal to everyone else.
At a minimum, price transparency makes the savvy bargainer worse off, and the clueless consumer better off.
Moreover, as I said, I can also write a model where the general-equilibrium interaction makes all consumers worse off, because price transparency reduces incentives for firms to price-compete aggressively.

What you seem to be thinking of is competition among Yamaha dealers. In that respect, I have to agree that price transparency should drive the price down.

This raises the interesting question: what underpins the international price difference?
My guess was that it is driven by the manufacturers themselves, i.e. that Yamaha charges different wholesale prices to different markets in order to price discriminate.
Your implication instead is that it is dealers whose costs or profits are substantially higher in the US than in Japan or Europe.

Obviously there exist figures that would allow to distinguish between these hypotheses, but they are industry secrets I am not remotely privy to.

#171312 - 10/24/06 01:44 PM Re: Cost of new Yamaha C2
Starting Over Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/06
Posts: 1290
Loc: Toronto
Price fixing occurs when two or more competitors collude to fix prices for a certain type of product in the marketplace. This is illegal although it's not clear how effective this sort of action is (or ever was) because, in the absence of government regulation, there is no (legal) way to prevent competition from outside the cartel.

As for Yamaha and their pricing practices, I can't see how they can be accused of price fixing when they are only attempting to control pricing of their own product in their own dealer network. Buyers can always shop for another brand. If anything, I'd argue that Yamaha is less effective than most brands in establishing consistent pricing; their efforts are ridiculously ineffective. Yamaha pianos are priced all over the map, even in the same urban areas. (Stated) MSRPs differ from one dealer to the next on the same model and large discounts are thrown around without even asking for them to get the prices down where they belong. In the end, this can scare buyers away because they don't trust Yamaha pricing practices.

This is arguably bad business practice (which ultimately hurts Yamaha) but there's no criminal behaviour here.

Just dumb behaviour (IMHO).
Buy some good stock and hold it till it goes up, then sell it. If it don't go up, don't buy it.
Will Rogers

#171313 - 10/25/06 12:32 AM Re: Cost of new Yamaha C2
Giacomo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/07/06
Posts: 145
Hi Starting Over:

just in case I was not clear above, I never had any intention of accusing Yamaha of price fixing.
I know that's illegal, and I know that Yamaha and its dealers know better than to be on the wrong side of the law.

Having said this, attempting to control pricing of your own product in your own dealer network could be illegal price fixing under U.S. federal law. Although I'm not a lawyer and I've been chided before on this forum for venturing beyond my depth in legal matters, the Federal Trade Commission has this to say to the general public:
The key is evidence of an agreement. If the manufacturer and a dealer entered into an agreement on a resale price or minimum price, that would be a price-fixing violation. The agreement could be formal, through a contract, or informal, when the dealer’s compliance is coerced. However, if the manufacturer has established a policy that its dealers should not sell below a minimum price level, and the dealers have independently decided to follow that policy, there is no violation.
The piano situation that you describe is of course perfectly legal: Yamaha has (or claims to have) established a policy that its dealers should not sell below a minimum price leve, but apparently its dealers have not even decided to follow it ...

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#171314 - 10/25/06 01:19 AM Re: Cost of new Yamaha C2
Van Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 1215
Loc: S. California
Don't know about the acoustics, but when I purchased my ypg625 keyboard, it seemed pretty obvious that all the dealers/sellers colluded to put in a $749 minimum floor, they competed by offering differing accessory packages, but the minimum was VERY consistent across the country; sale of grand pianos may only affect a few, but when it comes to keyboards and other musical instruments, Yamaha is a BIG player and the obvious complicity to control prices, is I think, cause for action...

BTW, would anyone care to comment on what the current out the door price for the new C2 is? How about for a used one that's 5, 10 or 15 years old?


#171315 - 10/25/06 08:13 AM Re: Cost of new Yamaha C2
terminaldegree Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/06
Posts: 3851
Loc: Georgia, USA

Get a copy of the Fine pricing supplement. It's not that expensive, and has a fairly decent idea of what the price is like for almost every new piano sold in the US.

If you're dissatisfied with the pricing scheme, shop another brand, or shop used, or demos. Or, do like Goldberg7 did on here a few months ago and waste a lot of bandwidth cutting and pasting from various governmental publications about price fixing and collusion-- which will get you precisely nowhere.
Pianist, teacher, apprentice technician, internet addict.
Piano Review Editor - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer

#171316 - 10/25/06 08:44 AM Re: Cost of new Yamaha C2
Van Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 1215
Loc: S. California
I think I'm out of the acoustic piano market for now, after my very brief attempt at entry (thank god)...guess my initial impression is valid afterall (...how much did you spend for a piano!!?? \:D )

#171317 - 10/25/06 08:55 AM Re: Cost of new Yamaha C2
Axtremus Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/03
Posts: 6195
Originally posted by sid:

BTW, would anyone care to comment on what the current out the door price for the new C2 is?
My guess is about $18k~$20k pre-tax.
www.PianoRecital.org -- my piano recordings

#171318 - 11/02/06 02:35 PM Re: Cost of new Yamaha C2
Montague Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/18/06
Posts: 7
Loc: colorado
So is $11,000 the dealer cost?
Mark Montague

#171319 - 11/07/06 10:35 PM Re: Cost of new Yamaha C2
totallyclassics Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/01/05
Posts: 144
Loc: Houston,Tx
I purchased my Yamaha C2 last year in November.
Yamaha has a sale every year at the store I purchased it from, usually in Ocotober. The list price was 28,999. I purchased it for 20k.
I put money down, so i didn't finance that much, but YES, yamaha is expensive! I wanted the C3 very badly, but I felt good to get out the door with that price. To be honest I didn't even look at the list price on the C3, or the sale price. I didn't even try the C3. I made up my mind before I walked in the store that I was going to stay somewhat modest in my decision. Not to mention, our living room, would probably not accomadate a C3! As it is, the C2 does a pretty good job of occupying the entire space! We just went with it, and pulled it into the center of the room! Now we have a piano room instead of a living room! The sound is better, and it looks pretty cool too!

Good luck with your piano search!
"The aim and final end of all music should be none other than the glory of God and the refreshment of the soul."
- Johann Sebastian Bach

#2207042 - 01/02/14 05:41 PM Re: Cost of new Yamaha C2 [Re: sznnsings]
doneretired Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/01/14
Posts: 1
Loc: saint louis, Missouri
Has much changed since 2006 as far as a YAMAHA C6 sound? We do not have room for anything larger and I liked the base sounds when my wife tried one out, I do not play at all and she is learning. The dealer wanted $30,000 and I thought that price was $8,000 more than what I had guessed a new C2 piano would cost. Are new YAMAHA pianos much better than one 10 to 15 years old?

#2207105 - 01/02/14 08:09 PM Re: Cost of new Yamaha C2 [Re: sznnsings]
BornInTheUSA Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/05/13
Posts: 1365
You should probably start a new thread so people can see your question easier.

#2207404 - 01/03/14 12:20 PM Re: Cost of new Yamaha C2 [Re: sznnsings]
KurtZ Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/13/10
Posts: 1600
Loc: The Heart of Screenland
Price Fixing was outlawed in 1911. In 2008 in a 5-4 decision, USSC ruled that Minimum Advertised Price and Minimum Resale Price policies aren't always illegal and that any such law has to pass the "standards of reason". unfortunately, the justices offered no definition of what "standard of reason" meant but said that it would have to be defined by experts in economic theory. At the risk of going political, I'll offer that when they say "free trade" they're talking, as usual about free trade for the big guys and it's clear that all forms of anti-trust protection have been severely weakened over the last 30 years or so.

One who does what the Friend wants done
will never need a friend.


#2207411 - 01/03/14 12:26 PM Re: Cost of new Yamaha C2 [Re: sznnsings]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 15185
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
It is true that Yamaha has very stiff competition in Germany from the established German manufacturers and the market is fairly soft here now.

German manufactureres are the least of evil for Yamaha.

There's plenty others who offer amazing, head-scratching quality and sound for same and often less.

The new Baldwin grands over on this continent, together with a few others have incredible success.

It's a completely different market out there now.

Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642 www.eliteheritagepianos.ca Edmonton, Alta dealers for Estonia,
Brodmann 780-405-8908

#2234620 - 02/20/14 01:28 AM Re: Cost of new Yamaha C2 [Re: sznnsings]
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1805
My student just bought a C2 new for $20,000 in California
New Casio PX-360 digital piano, 1966 Mason & Hamlin piano.

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