Hi everyone,

YOur comments have been most helpful. I'm finding that for a piano in the size and price range that I'm hoping for, I like the C2 best so far.

I was at the local Yamaha dealer today (not the one with the 2 used C2's) and played their C2 which I like a lot. They stated the MSRP as $29, 395 and were asking $24, 185. I don't have the recent Piano Book supplement. Would someone please look that up for me and let me know if the MSRP is accurate.

Also what have others who have recently purchased new C2's paid for them? (Is this question kosher?).

Other thoughts about a reasonable price would be much appreciated.

Thanks!

sz, see this page, make sure you are comparing the same model http://www.bluebookofpianos.com/yamaha.htm
Be aware that the list price is purely theoretical, at least in my mind.

I bought the C2 Silent (MIDI) which I paid more for, but the best price I found on the plain C2 was from a dealer in Germany, close to Yamaha's central warehouse for Europe. His net price to me including taxes and delivery was around US $16,000.

I realize this sounds low. I do not know the US market so it's hard for me to compare. It is true that Yamaha has very stiff competition in Germany from the established German manufacturers and the market is fairly soft here now. This might explain the aggressive price. (I would also like to think that I am a decent negotiator !!!)

Good luck, let us know what happens.

Tim

bluebookofpianos prices are not always up-to-date. Yamaha pricing, based on what I've read in the forums this year, (a) went up last Spring quite a bit, and (b) are much more uniform across the board nationwide now.

Do a search on C2 and see what you get-there may be pricing in there, but double-check to make sure you are comparing new-to-new and not second hand.

For $15 lousy bucks, you can download the Supplement yourself:
http://www.ebooks.com/ebooks/book_display.asp?IID=265920

A tenth of one percent of the value of the piano you're considering.

--Cy--

Last I heard, Yamaha established a price-fixing policy.

Before I bought my new Mason & Hamlin AA (6'4"), I was seriously considering a new Yamaha C3 (6'1"). The best quotes I got were the same: $25K plus Calif. sales tax. The price includes delivery, 1st in-home tuning, and trade-in of your current Yamaha piano (acoustic or Clavinova digital).

After I put down a deposit on my M&H, I went to one of the Yamaha dealers to see if they wanted to earn my business by lowering their price. The salesman would do almost anything (throwing in a $700 bench, 2nd in-home tuning, free 2nd moving, etc.) but the price. I guess it was the minimum selling price set by Yamaha.

I didn't buy the C3 because I think I am getting a better value with M&H. I'd say C2 at $20K would be comparable with C3 at $25K.

Fine lists C2 at $23,700 (in polished ebony). I would expect at least 20% off that. I'm certain you can do the math. Yamaha has a minimum price at which their dealers are permitted to sell. I do not know what that minimum is. The prices you have been quoted are absurdly high. Of course, if you are willing to overpay I have no doubt that particular dealer is willing to allow you to do so.

"MSRP" may well be $29,395. Yamaha does publish a price list with exaggeratedly high MSRPs. I've had a glance at it, and while I don't recall the prices precisely, I do remember that they were quite a bit higher than Fine's "standardized" list prices. I would seriously doubt that many pianos have been sold at those absurd MSRPs. By the way, the advice to buy the Fine supplement, although it may have been delivered in a somewhat crass fashion, is sound. I am assuming here USD. If you are in Canada, the price you have been quoted would be reasonable.
--Dennis

Wonder why no one mentions the dealer game of raising the MSRP so that the consumer thinks they are getting a "great" deal when the price being offered is still above actual MSRP!? That's what this one sounds like.. I would walk back into this dealer with a copy of Fine's book in hand, and have them explain the difference. I am sure there is probably another Yamaha dealer somewhere within reasonable distance that will not play this game with you..

MSRP is meaningless hogwash when it comes to pianos--or worse, little more than a deception tactic (my opinion, yours may vary...).

I don't know about this new Yamaha price policing policy, but I do know I wouldn't pay more than 16K or 17K for a C2 if it was the best one they'd ever made. (And I do own one I like, by the way.)

At 20K and up, the possibilities open up greatly. If you're considering spending those kinds of bucks, I would expand my search and be patient.

Thank you, all! I will go ahead and get the supplement. The blue book website did say the MSRP was the same as the first dealer said it was and another dealer confirmed that that was the MSRP as well.

I'm still not sure I understand what Fine means by "list" price. Is this the price that the dealer is asking? Therefore, he's publishing an average of what dealers are asking?

Fine's list price is NOT a street price. I believe it is his (and his sources) best guess at roughly twice the wholesale price charged to dealers when they buy stock. From this "list" price the potential discount varies, but the usual range is 20-30 percent (except for Steinway). Bigger discounts are possible if the stars are aligned properly.

The problem for some buyers is that they feel cheated if somebody somewhere got it for less. The piano market is not yet like a market for cereal or salt (low price variability). Stock that has sat on a dealer's floor too long, or is in a finish that just isn't moving this year, may sell at a steeper than usual discount. A store that is shedding a line may also discount steeply. These are conditions that are unusual and so the occasional "steal" cannot be the expected price or you may wait long before enjoying a piano.

Cheers,

David F


P.S, For my money (and tastes) I really prefer the C3 to the C2. I think the scale design of the C3 offers a lot more resonance and clarity in the bass and more power in the treble.

Can you buy the m&h directly from the manufacturer for the dealer's price?

Sure, but first you must also become an authorized dealer for Mason & Hamlin pianos. You will be required to have a strong history of representing high end pianos, the ability to service your clients to Mason & Hamlin's standards, a representative inventory ( probably at least 5 units ) a nice space to show the instruments in, etc.

:D
Great answer.

There are very few products sold thru a dealer network that can also be purchased by a consumer at the dealer's cost direct from the manufacturer.

Very elegant post Keith!

I recall that there were people, for example, who went to europe and bought pianos direct from the manufacturer...I'm sure this would undercut the dealer, but in the age of the internet I'm surprised this isn't more of an option.

Oh, just wait, it will be one day. Cars, too, I'd bet. "Traditional Retail" is going to mean something very different in 15 or 20 years from what it has over most of the last 100 years or more...

I believe the "list" price that Fine gets comes directly from the manufacturers.. I have been told that they literally send them in. Does anyone know if this is true?

Sid:

you may be up to something I ignore, but I certainly don't think that anyone is buying pianos at wholesale prices in Europe either.
If anybody knows how to do that, please let me know!

Even if you buy directly from the manufacturer, which I take to mean in the manufacturer's own showroom, you pay the manufacturer's retail price.

Of course, the retail price in Europe is a very different figure from Larry Fine's price. But then again, so is the retail price in the United States ...

i've recently seen a new C2 on a showroom floor with a prominently displayed price tag of $19,995.

i think if you shop around you can get a new C3 for about $20k. i've also been quoted a "special sale price" on a new C3 of $39,995 (hurry! won't last long at this great price! wow!).

there are a lot of nice pianos around $20k, especially if you include the used market.

Effective April 1, 2006, $29,595 is the YAMAHA MSRP for an ebony polish standard C2.

Can't wait.....

Norbert

I don't know if it matters much, but sz never mentioned the finish of the quoted piano. FWIW, I like C2's quite a bit, but when I was quoted $18K for one a couple years ago, it wasn't a good enough price for me to buy one and I chose something I liked better for a little less.

So what is the street price of a new C2? This is all very confusing...

Sid:

This is supposed to be confusing!

Craigen provided the US MSRP: $29,595
Ryantim provided a good European "street price" : $16,000 including tax, i.e. $14,000 excluding it.
Finally, it is public information that in Japan the list price is 1,300,000 Yen, or $11,000 (net).

So the street price is anywhere between $10,000 and $30,000 depending on which street you're on.

Perhaps it's time some ambitious attorney general slap an anti-trust suit on these jokers...this disparity is ridiculous.

I am afraid how the list and street prices in Japan are helpful for you guys in US, but please be informed that a new C2 ebony polish costs usd10,800(list) and 0-20%(mostly 0-7%)Off(street) in Japan.

Yamaha has established "minimum selling prices" in the US. I think they should just publish that and go with a Steinway-like "fixed price" model. (Actually, I think all pianos should go to that model.)

As for getting the US Attorney General to investigate piano pricing - that would be a waste of tax payer's money. In a country of 300 million people and a $10 Trillion economy, piano represents a luxury good with fewer than 100,000 new units sold per year. There must be a million things more deserving of the Attorney General's attention and tax payer's investigative dollars.

Sid:

first, I completely agree with Axtremus on the priorities the government should have.

Second, I actually think that this disparity is far from ridiculous; it is not only logical, but informative and scientifically interesting.

At least a couple of times I have rambled on this forum on the deductions I can try making as an economist. Anyway, the bottom line:

1) Pianos are luxury items; they are perceived as pretty different from each other (which is the whole point of this Forum, after all); traditionally (and to a very large extent still today) they are sold rather locally. This situation has "pricing to market" written all over itself.
There's nothing stupid, wrong, or unjust about it: it's a free market!
Yamaha is free to try charging thrice as much for its piano in the US as it does in Japan; private parties are free to import "grey-market" Yamaha pianos from Japan to the US; the consumer is free to buy either, or another brand altogether.

2) The desire for fixed prices is psychologically natural---we hate bargaining (mainly because we are not accustomed to it: I find in my own experience that eBay is highly educational), and we pine for the safety of knowing we have had the same deal as everyone else.
In practice, however, you have to think carefully what you wish for. If piano dealers actually charged a fixed price, it would be a higher price than a savvy shopper can get under the current regime.
If you have a taste for theory, I have already written a little economic model which proves (under assumptions that may or may not be realistic) that the maximum price under price discrimination equals the average price under price transparency.
By the way, the whole thread in the link was enlightening to me, though you may not agree.

3) Finally, over the past few days I have been fascinated by a suggestion of Piano Dad's that the "big guys" in the US piano market have sufficient market power to raise prices across the board.
Surely you'll notice that the only companies attempting a fixed-price policy are Steinway and Yamaha.
Needless to say, I find $30,000 for a Yamaha C2 a ridiculous sum. Perhaps manners would prevent me from walking out of the dealership laughing, but not from walking out.
However, this works so long as we know that Kawai and other competitors have much lower prices for instruments of similar length and quality.
If Yamaha bites the bullet and resists at $30,000, losing sales in the short run, will it succeed in being a cartel leader in the long run? In other words, will Kawai (and whoever else you think is Yamaha's direct competition) also double its prices?
Time will tell. It wouldn't be pretty for the consumer. After all, there's a good reason why price-fixing is frowned upon. Why should one then like fixed prices?

I wasn't proposing fixed prices, rather, it's the inflated and demonstrably fixed prices here in the US that I object to. If the C2 can go for 10k in Japan and 16K in Germany, but lists for 30K here, and as you've yourself said, Yamaha has imposed minimum selling prices, then this isn't free market at work but rather price fixing by a wantabe cartel. It's this sort of price fixing I object to; if dealers were allowed to truly sell at market, then prices would come down on increased competition and over time will equalize across all markets, be much more transparent, and benefit both consumers and the producer (lower cost, higher volume).