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#1715595 - 07/18/11 10:04 AM Yamaha sounds muffled
hmrnmky Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/11/11
Posts: 53
Loc: San Diego, CA
My new Yamaha 5'8" GC2 was delivered on Saturday after 2 long weeks of waiting. I am disappointed in the sound and not sure what if anything I can do. The showroom was very large, very high ceiling and carpeted. My livingroom is much smaller, lower ceiling and hardwood floor so I assumed that the sound would be louder. I had a U3, with a clicking problem, some of you may recall. I "upgraded" to the GC2 at a huge discount and should be thrilled but I'm not. When playing the piano it sounds muffled to me but everyone else says no it is much louder than the U3 but from where I sit the U3 sounded more clear and loud. I feel the GC2 must be a better instrument but I'm having trouble with the adjustment. The treble is extremely bright and a bit harsh, I think voicing will help. A string cover was suggested which I wasn't sure I wanted and tried a flannel sheet just to see if the sound quality would be affected. The sheet really muffles the sound futher so I would not be happy with that. Any suggestions on improving the sound, less muffled? The piano sits directly on the hardwood floor, no rug with the lid fully open.
_________________________
2011 Yamaha GC2

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#1715600 - 07/18/11 10:10 AM Re: Yamaha sounds muffled [Re: hmrnmky]
Pianolance Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/28/09
Posts: 1178
Loc: Nashville, TN
Try folding the music rack down and see if that helps the sound from the pianist perspective. Lid up or at least on short stick if you have that option.
_________________________
Knabe 5'2" Louis XV Walnut circa 1927
Very part time piano broker.

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#1715604 - 07/18/11 10:17 AM Re: Yamaha sounds muffled [Re: hmrnmky]
Rotom Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/24/10
Posts: 1670
The reason the U3 sounded clearer is because the soundboard is upright/vertical, the sound is much more "in ya face" than grands.

The grand lid, when open, is designed to project sound out to the side of the piano to the audience, which is probably why everyone else says it is louder. The worst possible place to listen to a grand is where the player sits, as the lid's design is to be like that. I find the sound to be clearer and more focused when the lid is down to half or mini stick (on C series grands, not sure about GC's).

The treble problem, I'll bet it's in the capo bar range, and not the agraffes range. The region with the aggrafes are much warmer in tone than the capo bar range, which gets very bright, almost painfully so at times.

You say you have a hardwood floor. Try putting carpet underneath the piano to absorb some higher frequencies. If you put anything on top of the piano, or cover the strings, you won't alter the tone, you will only muffle it more, where it then sounds like you are playing behind thick curtains with the piano up the street.

Rugs are a good idea. I have my C7 on a carpeted room, so it sounds fine to me.

The treble is a pain with places with hardwood floors. My school has some lovely 3 year ols C7's, but only when they are in an acoustically dampened (ie, carpeted) room. Whenever they are in the performance space (hardwood floor, high ceilings), they sound absolutely horrible, and tinny. I won't go on, I'll get angry and frustrated... frown .

Basically: carpet, rug, lid down, no cover.

Best of luck,

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#1715605 - 07/18/11 10:18 AM Re: Yamaha sounds muffled [Re: Pianolance]
hmrnmky Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/11/11
Posts: 53
Loc: San Diego, CA
Originally Posted By: Pianolance
Try folding the music rack down and see if that helps the sound from the pianist perspective. Lid up or at least on short stick if you have that option.

Thanks for the suggestion, I keep the lid up but I need the music rack for my music. I don't play by ear or really anything from memory so I need the sheet music or book. Any other ideas?
_________________________
2011 Yamaha GC2

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#1715607 - 07/18/11 10:21 AM Re: Yamaha sounds muffled [Re: Rotom]
hmrnmky Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/11/11
Posts: 53
Loc: San Diego, CA
Originally Posted By: Rotom
The reason the U3 sounded clearer is because the soundboard is upright/vertical, the sound is much more "in ya face" than grands.

The grand lid, when open, is designed to project sound out to the side of the piano to the audience, which is probably why everyone else says it is louder. The worst possible place to listen to a grand is where the player sits, as the lid's design is to be like that. I find the sound to be clearer and more focused when the lid is down to half or mini stick (on C series grands, not sure about GC's).

The treble problem, I'll bet it's in the capo bar range, and not the agraffes range. The region with the aggrafes are much warmer in tone than the capo bar range, which gets very bright, almost painfully so at times.

You say you have a hardwood floor. Try putting carpet underneath the piano to absorb some higher frequencies. If you put anything on top of the piano, or cover the strings, you won't alter the tone, you will only muffle it more, where it then sounds like you are playing behind thick curtains with the piano up the street.

Rugs are a good idea. I have my C7 on a carpeted room, so it sounds fine to me.

The treble is a pain with places with hardwood floors. My school has some lovely 3 year ols C7's, but only when they are in an acoustically dampened (ie, carpeted) room. Whenever they are in the performance space (hardwood floor, high ceilings), they sound absolutely horrible, and tinny. I won't go on, I'll get angry and frustrated... frown .

Basically: carpet, rug, lid down, no cover.

Best of luck,


Thanks Tom, I have not tried the lid down so if that will help I'll give it a try.
_________________________
2011 Yamaha GC2

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#1715611 - 07/18/11 10:29 AM Re: Yamaha sounds muffled [Re: Pianolance]
Rotom Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/24/10
Posts: 1670
Originally Posted By: Pianolance
Try folding the music rack down and see if that helps the sound from the pianist perspective. Lid up or at least on short stick if you have that option.


That works too. My set up is usually main lid on half stick, music rack down, except when I a learning/marking my music. The sound is really wonderfully clear, almost like a upright! :P

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#1715631 - 07/18/11 10:52 AM Re: Yamaha sounds muffled [Re: hmrnmky]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20763
Loc: Oakland
A new piano should brighten up fairly quickly.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1715635 - 07/18/11 11:01 AM Re: Yamaha sounds muffled [Re: hmrnmky]
Rickster Offline


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8073
Loc: Georgia, USA
This may not be any consolation to you, but the hammers will get harder (and the sound louder) on their own in time, depending on how often (and how hard) you play it.

Have you contacted your dealer about this yet?

Rick
_________________________
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

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#1715646 - 07/18/11 11:46 AM Re: Yamaha sounds muffled [Re: BDB]
hmrnmky Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/11/11
Posts: 53
Loc: San Diego, CA
Originally Posted By: BDB
A new piano should brighten up fairly quickly.

I am hopeful that it will brighten up quickly as I'd hate to regret spending more money and feeling like the U3 was better.
_________________________
2011 Yamaha GC2

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#1715650 - 07/18/11 11:51 AM Re: Yamaha sounds muffled [Re: Rickster]
hmrnmky Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/11/11
Posts: 53
Loc: San Diego, CA
Originally Posted By: Rickster
This may not be any consolation to you, but the hammers will get harder (and the sound louder) on their own in time, depending on how often (and how hard) you play it.

Have you contacted your dealer about this yet?

Rick

Rick, I haven't contacted the dealer yet since it's only been 2 days since delivery. I wanted to get all of your advice first. I've been reading the posts for quite some time before joining and have full confidence in the collective experience of all of you. Today I'll put the lid down and see how that works for me. I think I will have the tech voice the upper end so it isn't as bright. It's almost like the keyboard is split in half, like you can find the division between the more muffled notes and the really bright notes. Kinda like 2 different pianos in one. I also noticed that some of the keys sound a little like wood is rubbing, maybe the action and not the key. I will have to take note of which keys and have the tech look at those as well. Certainly not the issue I had withe the clicking.
_________________________
2011 Yamaha GC2

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#1715656 - 07/18/11 12:04 PM Re: Yamaha sounds muffled [Re: hmrnmky]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20763
Loc: Oakland
If it is only two days since delivery, see what it is like after it is tuned before you have anything else done to the piano.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1715680 - 07/18/11 12:46 PM Re: Yamaha sounds muffled [Re: hmrnmky]
AlphaTerminus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/08/09
Posts: 549
Loc: Iowa, USA
I second the rug under the piano idea. Try it out by putting a blanket under the piano. I bet it will help your harsh treble without muffling the piano.
_________________________
Lessons since September 2009
Yamaha C6

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#1715746 - 07/18/11 02:44 PM Re: Yamaha sounds muffled [Re: hmrnmky]
Robert 45 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/18/06
Posts: 1116
Loc: Auckland New Zealand
Hi hmrnmky,
Congratulations on the acquiring a new grand piano which I am sure, in time, will be a pleasing upgrade on your previous vertical piano!

In my experience, lowish ceilings do not enhance the sound from a grand piano, especially for the player. That could partly explain your disappointment with the sound of your piano in its new setting.

I would refrain from having the piano voiced until it has had at least 6 months of regular playing. A new piano will often sound 'tight', especially in the treble, and the excessive brightness you mention will be less apparent as the strings and the soundboard vibrate more freely with playing and the instrument begins to "sing" with more radiance in the tone.

Most important for any new piano is regular tuning and if you want to get the best from your piano, it should be done 3-4 times a year for the first few years.

As I often say, I am no expert, but I would think that voicing down the treble of your new piano at this stage would further exacerbate your perception of a "muffled" tone.

All the best for you and your piano!

Robert.


Edited by Robert 45 (07/18/11 02:47 PM)

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#1715770 - 07/18/11 03:28 PM Re: Yamaha sounds muffled [Re: hmrnmky]
PianoWorksATL Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/19/09
Posts: 2634
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Based on your description, you piano needs some playing time and after sale service, voicing in particular. Other room or piano treatments should come after you are generally happy with the piano's tone

The unevenness + your experience in the showroom makes me ask the question...did they deliver the one you played or a different one? Was that part of the deal you made?
_________________________
Sam Bennett
PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
Bösendorfer, Estonia, Seiler, Grotrian, Weber & Hailun
Pre-Owned: Yamaha, Kawai, Steinway & other fine pianos
Full Restoration Shop
www.PianoWorks.com
www.youtube.com/PianoWorksAtlanta

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#1715810 - 07/18/11 04:44 PM Re: Yamaha sounds muffled [Re: Robert 45]
hmrnmky Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/11/11
Posts: 53
Loc: San Diego, CA
Originally Posted By: Robert 45
Hi hmrnmky,
Congratulations on the acquiring a new grand piano which I am sure, in time, will be a pleasing upgrade on your previous vertical piano!

In my experience, lowish ceilings do not enhance the sound from a grand piano, especially for the player. That could partly explain your disappointment with the sound of your piano in its new setting.

I would refrain from having the piano voiced until it has had at least 6 months of regular playing. A new piano will often sound 'tight', especially in the treble, and the excessive brightness you mention will be less apparent as the strings and the soundboard vibrate more freely with playing and the instrument begins to "sing" with more radiance in the tone.

Most important for any new piano is regular tuning and if you want to get the best from your piano, it should be done 3-4 times a year for the first few years.

As I often say, I am no expert, but I would think that voicing down the treble of your new piano at this stage would further exacerbate your perception of a "muffled" tone.

All the best for you and your piano!

Robert.


Thanks for the advice. I was expecting the piano to sound great right out of the box and be blown away hearing it in my home verus the showroom. When I bought this piano the salesman didn't mention anything about the sound getting better once I played it for a few months. Good to know.
_________________________
2011 Yamaha GC2

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#1715814 - 07/18/11 04:48 PM Re: Yamaha sounds muffled [Re: PianoWorksATL]
hmrnmky Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/11/11
Posts: 53
Loc: San Diego, CA
Originally Posted By: PianoWorksATL
Based on your description, you piano needs some playing time and after sale service, voicing in particular. Other room or piano treatments should come after you are generally happy with the piano's tone

The unevenness + your experience in the showroom makes me ask the question...did they deliver the one you played or a different one? Was that part of the deal you made?

They delivered a different piano, the one in the showroom was sold so they had to order one. I was assured that the build quality was very consistent and it would sound and play just like the one in the showroom. This may very well be true, if they delivered the one I played it may have sounded the same. I'm going to put the lid down and see how it sounds and just play the heck out of it for a few weeks before scheduling my first tuning. Some notes already sound out of tune to my ear.
_________________________
2011 Yamaha GC2

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#1715821 - 07/18/11 05:11 PM Re: Yamaha sounds muffled [Re: hmrnmky]
PianoWorksATL Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/19/09
Posts: 2634
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Originally Posted By: hmrnmky
They delivered a different piano, the one in the showroom was sold so they had to order one. I was assured that the build quality was very consistent and it would sound and play just like the one in the showroom. This may very well be true, if they delivered the one I played it may have sounded the same. I'm going to put the lid down and see how it sounds and just play the heck out of it for a few weeks before scheduling my first tuning. Some notes already sound out of tune to my ear.
This is your issue. Their build quality generally is very consistent, however, for it to sound more or less the same, the same technician would have to prep it to the same degree.

Call your dealer and explain that the piano sounds significantly different than the one you played in the showroom and request that the technician doing the followup tuning expect to voice the piano as well. You should make yourself available when this happens to give the tech feedback. In the meantime, play it as much as you can.
_________________________
Sam Bennett
PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
Bösendorfer, Estonia, Seiler, Grotrian, Weber & Hailun
Pre-Owned: Yamaha, Kawai, Steinway & other fine pianos
Full Restoration Shop
www.PianoWorks.com
www.youtube.com/PianoWorksAtlanta

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#1716238 - 07/19/11 09:39 AM Re: Yamaha sounds muffled [Re: PianoWorksATL]
hmrnmky Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/11/11
Posts: 53
Loc: San Diego, CA
Originally Posted By: PianoWorksATL
Originally Posted By: hmrnmky
They delivered a different piano, the one in the showroom was sold so they had to order one. I was assured that the build quality was very consistent and it would sound and play just like the one in the showroom. This may very well be true, if they delivered the one I played it may have sounded the same. I'm going to put the lid down and see how it sounds and just play the heck out of it for a few weeks before scheduling my first tuning. Some notes already sound out of tune to my ear.
This is your issue. Their build quality generally is very consistent, however, for it to sound more or less the same, the same technician would have to prep it to the same degree.

Call your dealer and explain that the piano sounds significantly different than the one you played in the showroom and request that the technician doing the followup tuning expect to voice the piano as well. You should make yourself available when this happens to give the tech feedback. In the meantime, play it as much as you can.

The tech that prepped the piano I played in the showroom did not prep mine. The dealer has two techs and both were on vacation at the same time so they hired a very experienced tech they sometimes use to prep the piano. My salesman is always off on Monday and Tuesday so tomorrow I will call him. I was always present when my previous pianos have been tuned in the past, I like to ask questions and get as much information as I can about the particular instrument and how it is different or not from others of the same model.

I lowered the lid, then to the short stick and then back to fully open, none of the positions provided any better clarity to my ear. I'll keep playing it as much as possible to break it in before the first tuning and hopefully it will sound less muffled. I hope I didn't make a very expensive mistake buying this Yamaha. I played a Steinway M and didn't like the action or tone, I also played a Boston and it sounded very muffled or muddy to me. The Yamahas in general seemed to sound louder or more clear to me and I like that which is why I am disapponted so far with this one.


Edited by hmrnmky (07/19/11 09:40 AM)
_________________________
2011 Yamaha GC2

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#1716266 - 07/19/11 10:17 AM Re: Yamaha sounds muffled [Re: hmrnmky]
Rotom Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/24/10
Posts: 1670
Looks like you need acoustic treatment done to your room.

If your into craft:
MAKING YOUR VERY OWN ACOUSTIC PANELS:

1. Get lots of egg cartons. Paint them to match your walls.
2. get a big piece of MDF (medium density fiberboard) and paint it to match your walls.
3. Use liquid nails to glue the egg carton protrusions to the MDF board.
4. Punch two holes in the MDF, hang it up on the wall if you have a wall-hangy-hook thing, nail or screw it to the wall if you want it permanent.
5. Look at the interesting patterns the light throws on the egg cartons.
5a. Enjoy the piece of artwork you have done

Notes: the MDF, when new and fresh, smells very bad. Ventilate the MDf board in a well ventilated area, and paint it in a well ventilated area. The smell goes away after painting. The completed board can be heavy if you make it big, do it in smaller portions for easier handling and installation.

Edit: this works by making the acoustics of the room drier, and absorbing higher frequencies (I think), making the treble less tinny and bright, and the room less blurry and echoey. If it is muffled, then I don't know what to do really.

Hope it helps,


Edited by Rotom (07/19/11 10:32 AM)

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#1716325 - 07/19/11 11:42 AM Re: Yamaha sounds muffled [Re: hmrnmky]
rysowers Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2340
Loc: Olympia, WA
Insist that the store properly prep your piano. I'm not talking about a couple of hours, but more like a whole day. To buy a piano and then have a different one delivered is really shady in my opinion, and they need to go the extra mile to make your piano as nice as it can be.

Make sure the technician really knows standard and professional voicing protocols and be VERY suspicious if he/she recommends a chemical hardener, as this would be highly unusual for a Yamaha unless someone has over voiced or chemically softened the hammers already.

Regulation should be very good and there should be no excessive friction
Strings should be massaged along all bearing points then the piano retuned (probably twice)
Hammers should be properly shaped traveled and aligned
Hammers should be mated to the strings
Voicing should be rigorously played in and then refined.

This work can make a HUGE difference in the clarity, sustain, and dynamic range of the piano.

Good techs would likely charge between $700-1000 for this type of work.
_________________________
Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net

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#1716358 - 07/19/11 12:29 PM Re: Yamaha sounds muffled [Re: hmrnmky]
AlphaTerminus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/08/09
Posts: 549
Loc: Iowa, USA
The tech story / different piano story sounds very much like a load of #%$&.

I agree they need to properly prep it. If you are blown off by the dealer you will be out $1000 to have it properly prepped.

All Yamaha GC2s are consistent and can be made to sound about the same so you do not have to worry about that.

What state is this dealer in? If you visit the shop 2 months later and that same "sold" piano is sitting in the showroom my shady theory will be confirmed.
_________________________
Lessons since September 2009
Yamaha C6

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#1716382 - 07/19/11 12:54 PM Re: Yamaha sounds muffled [Re: rysowers]
hmrnmky Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/11/11
Posts: 53
Loc: San Diego, CA
Originally Posted By: rysowers
Insist that the store properly prep your piano. I'm not talking about a couple of hours, but more like a whole day. To buy a piano and then have a different one delivered is really shady in my opinion, and they need to go the extra mile to make your piano as nice as it can be.

Make sure the technician really knows standard and professional voicing protocols and be VERY suspicious if he/she recommends a chemical hardener, as this would be highly unusual for a Yamaha unless someone has over voiced or chemically softened the hammers already.

Regulation should be very good and there should be no excessive friction
Strings should be massaged along all bearing points then the piano retuned (probably twice)
Hammers should be properly shaped traveled and aligned
Hammers should be mated to the strings
Voicing should be rigorously played in and then refined.

This work can make a HUGE difference in the clarity, sustain, and dynamic range of the piano.

Good techs would likely charge between $700-1000 for this type of work.


When I purchased the piano they said that they needed 2 days to do the prep. Because of the issue I had with the U3 they wanted to make sure the piano was properly prepped, that was on a Friday. Monday of the following week I got a call that the two techs they have in-house were both on vacation and they didn't have anyone to prep the piano. The salesman said they were working on getting someone local to prep the piano so I didn't have to wait another week for delivery. They gave me the name of a local tech, who I have meet and did try twice to fix the U3, and said he would prep the piano. I don't know for sure that he did or who did but it arrived on the specified day.

I found a post from March from a guy who bought a new piano and had the same muffled sound when sitting at the keyboard, just like mine. It was suggested to him to move the music desk all the way back instead of closet to the keyboard. Mine is currently closest to the keyboard. This seemed to have worked for him so when I get home I'm going to try this. I haven't yet tried putting a rug under it but I have one I can try as well.

If these two things don't show improvement then I can proceed with insisting they re-prep the piano. Thanks for your advice.
_________________________
2011 Yamaha GC2

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#1716514 - 07/19/11 03:45 PM Re: Yamaha sounds muffled [Re: Rotom]
gnuboi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 2349
Loc: USA
Rotom, The egg crates would diffuse but not absorb sound. By themselves it might serve some purposes but for me I would add foam into the mix for energy absorption.

Did you actually buld these yourself? My wife would never let me put that up in the piano room wink

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#1716597 - 07/19/11 05:09 PM Re: Yamaha sounds muffled [Re: hmrnmky]
Rotom Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/24/10
Posts: 1670
Yes, gnuboi, I have a big sheet of these hanging up in my piano room. Works well enough for me. They DO look nice.

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#1717113 - 07/20/11 10:11 AM Re: Yamaha sounds muffled [Re: hmrnmky]
hmrnmky Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/11/11
Posts: 53
Loc: San Diego, CA
Last night I moved the music desk all the way back and put a rug under the piano. I think it sounded better so I added a folded blanket as well. The pile on the rug is very short so now I'm going to get a nice rug with a longer pile that covers more of the floor under the piano. The egg crate on the wall idea did not go over very well at home when I mentioned it. Hopefully a better rug will do the trick. Thanks everyone for your advice.
_________________________
2011 Yamaha GC2

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#1717172 - 07/20/11 11:36 AM Re: Yamaha sounds muffled [Re: hmrnmky]
gnuboi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 2349
Loc: USA
If this is improving the tone then perhaps what you had wasn't insufficient volume but too much reflective surfaces and standing waves.

You could addddrapes, rugs, upholstered furniture, book cases, books... there are also nicer-looking acoustic panels for absorption/diffusion for walls and ceilings.

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#1752366 - 09/14/11 10:20 AM Re: Yamaha sounds muffled [Re: hmrnmky]
hmrnmky Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/11/11
Posts: 53
Loc: San Diego, CA
The piano is muffled no more. I read in Larry Fine's book about placement of the piano in the room. I had the tail in a corner and the right hand wall had an opening so the sound was going more into the other room. I rotated the piano slightly so the long side is againist the wall and the piano opens into the living room. This minor placement change allows me to hear the piano clearly and more loudly than before. The sound has really improved and I can hear the bass notes where before I couldn't appreciate the tone as I can now. Leasson learned is small changes can make a big difference.
_________________________
2011 Yamaha GC2

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#1752434 - 09/14/11 01:14 PM Re: Yamaha sounds muffled [Re: hmrnmky]
Steve Chandler Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 2629
Loc: Urbandale, Iowa
Originally Posted By: hmrnmky
The piano is muffled no more. I read in Larry Fine's book about placement of the piano in the room. I had the tail in a corner and the right hand wall had an opening so the sound was going more into the other room. I rotated the piano slightly so the long side is againist the wall and the piano opens into the living room. This minor placement change allows me to hear the piano clearly and more loudly than before. The sound has really improved and I can hear the bass notes where before I couldn't appreciate the tone as I can now. Leasson learned is small changes can make a big difference.

Funny how in all the discussion about dealer prep and delivering a different piano the subject of room placement didn't really come up even though you mentioned the differences between the store acoustics and your house in the original post. I'm very glad your piano ills have been cured. Now you can enjoy practicing. Go to it!

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the government and tuning.
by kc_lee
04/19/14 12:33 PM
Midi controller with a good keybed under 1000$
by Ov3rload
04/19/14 11:55 AM
Bösendorfer vs Steingraeber
by Keith D Kerman
04/19/14 11:51 AM
Keyboard stand
by david_ka
04/19/14 09:42 AM
Tuning stability problems...
by Grotriman
04/19/14 09:20 AM
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