Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum The Bach Inventions - what do you guys think?

Any of you guys play these? I've been finding myself listening to these on YouTube lately.

I am drawn to the "mechanical nature" of the inventions, although I do realize that they have to be played musically as well (as with anything).

What's a good one to start with?

They teach hand indepence and counterpoint. The idea was to create a left hand melody against the right. Very useful because in much music, the left is the rythym section thus does not get developed in the same way. "Man, that Glenn guy has 2 right hands!"

"The first one"

Yeah, I've heard that too.

I'm working on the first one right now. At first it sort of seemed like a barrage of notes, but as I've gotten familiar with it, the structure comes out and makes it easier to understand.

An old poster at pianostreet had a great thread on this:

http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=2714.msg26624#msg26624

He's got more deeper into the thread as well. (and a few posts before too)

If I ever retained the services of a teacher, I would want someone like this dude.

I love Bach. I know what you mean by the mechanical part. I like that part as well. Depending on the piece, I get feeling of sensation like climbing up spiral stair case leading up to a tower. At the same time, it's not totally mechanical. Manytimes, I feel the purest from of feeling which is very close to sensation... sorrow, joy... and so on. I used to imagine all the kinds of wierd stuff when playing invention, running through a maze, being chased by running Medusa's hair, suddenly appearing abyss and cliff.

I found that I can enjoy more, if I let go myslef and just enjoy the ride. Probably it's all illegal (hey, I am not a good pianist, don't listen to me . I used to take a little bit of time when I see a leap of notes. like actually hopping over. When consecutive climb and decent got too much I played tiredly with retardando... It was fun. IMHO, it sounded more natural.

When I was little, I would stare into the inside of a clock, watch, or other gadget to try to see how it worked.

THAT is the only way that Bach is "mechanical".

The SOUND of Bach can only be described as mechanical if it's played badly. But any music sounds bad if it's played badly.

Beethoven played badly = pompous and angry
Chopin played badly = sentimental drama queen
Mozart played badly = cute and sugary, no substance
Bach played badly = cold and mechanical


The moral of the story: Whatever you play, play it well.

It doesn't matter which one you start with, once you learn one of them you are contractually obligated to learn them all.

I am going to tell you a story. It is the story of two great friends. Two voices to be exact. One voice is named Soprano, the other is named Bass. This is the story of Soprano and Bass, two great friends.

One day, Soprano says to Bass, "listen, I have an idea. I am going to sing a theme, a motif, OK ? You, Bass, you are going to sing it right back to me, OK ? But it doesn't stop there. No, that is only the beginning, because then I am going to repeat the motif starting from the fifth. And then I am going to invert it and little by little I am going to modulate. Let's see if you can follow me."

And so they begin.

After a few measures Bass gets to feeling a little frustrated, just repeating and harmonizing while Soprano leads him along. "Now it's my turn" he thinks to himself and without hesitation he steps in front of Soprano and takes up the motif himself.

Soprano is a bit astonished by this cheeky behavior, and lays out for a couple of beats. But then despite himself he can't resist Bass' enthusiastic mood and he throws himself in.

Bass, meanwhile, is piping right along, pushing himself up into the highest part of his tessiture, which costs him a great deal of effort and concentration. By this point Soprano is completely won over and the both of them are completely in agreement as they race along into another modulation, this time minor.

And so goes the story of our two voices. It isn't finished yet. It can't be finished yet, because they have to modulate back to whence they came, the key of C major. As with every truly interesting story, the suspense goes on nearly to the last measure, and when you least expect it, when it would seem all but impossible, our two heroes resolve ... thanks to the miraculous intervention of the perfect cadence.



An invention is the story of two voices. Sing the voices, literally sing them. You will forget that you saw something mechanical in there.

PPP -- contractually obligated to learn them all...oh my...........gasp.
Well, it would be a worthy undertaking, that's for sure.

Landorrano - loved your story.

On Sunday we listened to our LP of Glen Gould playing the Goldberg pieces and though I have heard them many many times, we haven't listened to them for a number of months. On re-hearing them, I was even more awestruck than ever before - maybe because I have a better grasp of the complexity now, I don't know, but their beauty takes my breath away.

I have a complete collection of Bach 2 part inventions by Andras Shiff. I quite like it. It was useful for average students like me. I studied with a teacher long time ago Bach two part inventions #2, #4, #6, #8, #13, #14, #15 and Synfonia #12. I remember some other students played the first invention for recital. That's probably why we skipped the first one. It was really hard at first with my left hand but it gets easier as you gain independence in your left hand. Each performer seems to interprete it differently. Some people play very fast, dry and others may play not so too mechanical. I like to emphasize the dynamics in each hand, feel the contour of the music and enjoy the leap, climax, release.. where the music takes me. Men, I miss Bach. I cannot to wait to start a Bach piece (sigh). I need to finish Rach and Beethoven. You can only spread so much..

I worked on #1 and right now I have #8 in my homework list but to be honest, I like to hear it, but not to work on it...

Gets really borring, my teacher gave me a Chopin prelude that I completed in 2 weeks while I have been 'working on inv. #8' for like a month and doesn't seem to get better, I guess because I don't feel like enjoying it while practicing

Any advice for making them(bach's inventions) more... begginer friendly !?

FarmGirl, very interesting images when playing.

At this point, I'm ready to "move on" and work on other composers' works. I tried my hand at Chopin, but I don't think I'll ever be good, as I don't have the emotional makeup to play Chopin well. I'd rather just listen to someone else play Chopin.

I am very much a mechanical player (ragtime), so Bach, I think, is more suitable for me. I'll definitely get going on these. I like Invention 8 the best so far, but may work on Invention 1 first if I'm to do it correctly.

I'm really just poking my head into intermediateness but I was going through the clearance bins at a local sheet music shop and found this fun old book that is an introduction to the baroque forms using familiar folk melodies. The first one is an invention based on "Streets of Laredo" and the second is another invention based on "The Ash Grove". Reading each line alone, it's strictly book 2b but with the independence of the the 2 hands it's been quite a challenge.

Baroque Folk at SMP

N.C.I.

Bach is the best... all I'm going to say. The inventions are wonderful (well, I said a bit more).

I can't wait to play an invention, and then parts of WTC. When the time comes, I think I will really enjoy it.

I just finished wrapping up Two-Part Invention No.13. It was assigned on April 26 of this year and it was to be finished by the time classes resume on September 6. I am currently "reading" through Two-Part Invention No.8. I am getting a head start on that one before classes begin. That will be the next one to be added to the other bunch of pieces I was assigned. In my opinion, #8 is easier than #13.

you guys... i am really tempted to go to my piano and start playing some of the inventions.. I am supposed to be working now. it's soooo tempting. I work from at home a lot..and don't tell my bosses..I look at the PW from time to time. it's my fingers. it's moving on their own..

After assigning me four or five AMB Notebook pieces, followed by one of the little preludes, and more recently a small segment of the English Suite, I'm thinking my teacher may be getting ready to assign me one of the Inventions. I hope so, anyway. Most likely it won't be till I return from vacation in late August.

I'm just now starting #10. It will be my 7th, as I've so far learned 1, 2, 3, 4, 8, and 13. I also think #1 is a good place to start, and after that do the remaining "easier" ones which would be 2, 4, 8, and 10. (There is a quote floating around that includes 13 in the easier group, but in my opinion it was only placed there because of the A minor key. It is much more difficult than any of the others I listed.)

I would recommend the Willard Palmer (Alfred's) edition because it includes detailed notation on how to handle the trills and a CD with very good recordings by Valery Lloyd-Watts.

I am also under contractual obligation to learn all 15, but there's an additional clause in my contract that says I have to learn them by the time I'm 60. I'm now 55 so I need to hurry!

Hey bluekeys, I actually watched your versions on your YouTube channel awhile back. Great work! I also realize that your a Joplin/Bach fan. I see a trend here, as lots of pianists who are Joplin enthusiasts seem to be drawn to Bach. Joshua Rifkin is perhaps the best known of the bunch...

Also, I have taken your advice and ordered a used copy just seconds ago.

The Alfred edition is the way to go. As an adult re-starter, I have yet to buy any sheet music with actual instruction in it (for myself), so this is a first for me, and should help me along the way. I know Bach is pretty technically demanding fingering-wise.

My problem is that playing Bach gives me a sensation like climbing Escher's stairs. I don't feel like it's taking me anywhere. (I know -- it's my problem, not his!)

Thanks for these useful recommendations!


You can count me in that club too!

This is brilliant. But my personal experience indicates that these very effects can also be achieved via defective listening. I was born loving Bach, but the other impressions have taken profound personal satoris to overcome (still working on Chopin, alas...).

You have a gift. This was beautiful!

That's a nice thing to say.

Teodor, did you see my response to your question about the prélude in ré-minor ? It seems that you were away for a few days. I'm going to "bump" the thread so you can find it easily.

Thanks I will check it out. I was away to another town so I could enroll into the conservatory for my bachelors program. I paid the first tuition and now I'm broke but happy

Mary Bee & Farmgirl,

I kind of agree with your staircase sensation, but what really stands out for me is this sense that Bach's music is relentless - it has this movement that just nevers stop or pauses. Just when you think there might be some breathing room, wham, in comes another voice and more relentless movement. Sometimes I feel like one of my biggest challenges with Bach is to simply keep my own breathing steady.

JimF, I know what you mean. At times I felt like a marionette continue to dance with the never ending music. At the same time, I don't know why it's such a sheer joy to play Bach. I brought out my 2 part & 3 part invention book yesterday and played #8 of the 2 part invention very slowly. It was really fun. Especially where groups of 16 notes moves in contrary motions with the 8th notes leading to a couple of peaks of the piece... it give me goosebumps. I played the 8th notes detached (not staccato) with dynamics added along the contour of the music. Whenever there was a big leap I emphasized the gap and, I slowed down with energy-bunny style (when it's winding out before completely stops) ritardando where it's appropriate. Try it just for the sake of your personal fun (maybe not for your teacher). My husband was laughing at me because I released my hands off the keys in exaggerated manners.

I find the key to Bach is the counterpoint, savour it.

I hope that one day I will able to play one Bach Invention. It’s so marvellous music. Maybe I practice for that.

A couple years ago I made the mistake of commenting that I had a distaste for most JS Bach music since I was in my early 20's and heard a recording of a very famous pianist (who's name I shall not mention because I'd start a war here) and that since then, Bach sounded cold and mechanical and unintersting to me.

My next assignment was Six Little Preludes by JS Bach. Somehow, my feelings started to change. After the Two and Three part inventions, I'm working on a selection of Goldberg Variations... suffice it to say, my distaste for JS Bach changed to a love and fascination.

Not only does it MASSIVELY increase one's skill at coordination, concentration, and control of rhythms, it takes a person to new depths of musical presence of mind. Bach is rarely, perhaps never, just melody and harmony. At its simplest, it is two melodic voices complementing each other. At it's pinnacle, in a work like the St. Matthew Passion, it is multitudes of voices weaving in and out of each other, in a perfection such as few, perhaps none, have ever acheived before or since.

I play much better now than before diving into Bach, and I listen to music in an entirely different way now.

So, in short, start with the JS Bach that you can execute at your current level of playing. Enjoy it, and master each hand separately, then begin putting them together. Then, once it starts making sense, move forward into more and more challenging pieces. You'll never run out of Bach to play, he wrote hundreds of pieces (actually more, but hundreds that can be played on keyboard).

I do strongly suggest that you work with a teacher that REALLY understands Bach.

My teacher gave me No.14 as my first Bach piece. We worked on it a bit and then we kind of drifted off onto 2 other pieces I was doing at the same time, since I guess she thought it was too difficult for me. The other pieces were a Chopin Prelude and Beethoven Sonata No.20, first movement. Then she sadly passed away. So out of the 3 I decided to work on the Bach first.

I've been on it for almost a year playing it 10 minutes every other day. I'm hoping I can get it good enough for the November Adult Beginners Recital although it will still probably be well below tempo.

I downloaded a spreadsheet of graded pieces from this site which includes the inventions:
Grade 5: 1,2,4,8,10,13,14
Grade 6: 3,5,6,7,9
Grade 7: 11,12,15

The inventions are delightful. I've played 1, 4, 8, and 13. Hope to study more when time permits!

I decided to "do it right" and begin Invention 1! Now, here's the thing. I am confused with tempo. I browsed none other than Gould who plays it relatively slow (but musical):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzU7xQmmXGE&feature=fvwrel


...but then some amateurs play it fast!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjbqCDdj75g&feature=related

What do you all think of tempo for these inventions? I know it's widely debated and studied...

Gould > Amateur

I found funny that invention #1 has been one of my test piece when shopping for pianos because really requires so much clarity that put the mid range of a piano totally naked...

was absolutely gorgeous on a 7 foot something bechstein. O_O; total LOVE!!!!!

and I really love the first movement of the 1st piano concerto of J.S :-)

The Gould version of Invention 1 is as Bach perfect as you could ever need.The fast amateur version might just be a way to hide the fact that you would not be able to play it decently at any tempo.
I have just started on no.1, and will use Goulds version as a standard to go by. Have to see if there is a Richter version too.