Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner Is there anyway to learn proper fingering?

It is a essential to learning piano. when I play, I stress myself out trying to figure out proper fingerings and everything where I can keep everything in balance while keeping on beat. I am practically beating my head against the wall. I have so many questions to ask my teacher about the subject but I couldn't take lessons with her this summer. I really feel behind in my studies, and I never really got the whole concept of proper fingering on the piano. Nobody has ever explained that to me. I cannot learn any Etude, Prelude, Invention, nothing, till I learn proper fingering.

Sorry if I ask too many questions. This summer has been rough on me. I was kinda afraid to go on without my teacher. My mom doesn't seem to realize that I could screw up my technique(if I haven't already done that) if I go off and learn on my own.

Go to the nearest music store and look for the Brown Scale Book. It's literally just a print of the scales, arpeggios, triads, dominant sevenths, etc., but it's very helpful. Learning the proper fingerings of the scales, broken chords and arpeggios will help you use the most effective fingerings more naturally in your repertoire.

I have copies of all my scales and arpeggios, but thank you for your help. I will try that and see what I learn.

Well, make sure you buy fingered editions of the pieces you want to play. If you don't like the fingering, though, you should change it to something that fits your hand better. I absolutely Hate fingering because it is hard and takes a lot of experimenting but it pays off in the end. Just be patient with yourself while you finger!

There are many good student editions that include extensive fingering. They are particularly designed to have more information about fingering, pedalling, etc. than would normally appear in a more sparsly edited or urtext edition. These student editions not only help with extensive fingering for the specific pieces involved but are a way to eventually learn how to figure out some fingering by oneself when there are no suggestion.

The only thing that one must realize is even in a good student edition, every single fingering suggestion will not be the best for every student so some changes might be needed.

The Teacher's Forum would be a good place to get more specific suggestions for good student editions of whatever pieces you're interested in.

I agree that the advice to buy editions with fingerings is a good place to start. While an editor's fingerings may, ultimately, not be optimum for you, they are always a good place to start because by studying them you should find out more and more what the "secret" to good fingering is.

Figuring out good fingering involves always looking ahead to see where your hand has to go. If, for example, in a relatively straightforward passage, you end up with your fifth finger on C and the next note is E above C, then ending up with 5 on C was not a good choice; perhaps that should have been the moment to shift to the thumb (1).

The real "secret" to good fingering is that much of fingering is no secret; it's just common sense. You have to figure out where the passage is going and the best way to use your fingers to play all the notes to get there. The problem becomes a little more complex when you have multiple notes or chords but, again, a little bit of analysis and common sense should solve almost all fingerings problems.

Until you get to that stage, however, search for editions that have fingerings in them. Take some time, occasionally, not just to play through what's written with the fingering given but also to analyze the fingering given. Try to figure out why the editor has suggested the fingering he has; when you have done so you'll be able, more and more, to figure out the fingering that works best for you. Nine times out of ten, editors fingerings will work for most people most of the time.

Regards,

http://www.free-scores.com/PDF_EN/h...ercices-partie-ii-texte-anglais-3544.pdf

This will give you Part II of the Hanon Book, including the scales, with fingering. Going back to the Part I pdf will give you the exercises, with their fingerings. I guarantee you, you'll stay busy for the summer.

One precaution: disregard the instruction to "lift the fingers high" with every note, as that can injure the hand. A crisp intonation is fine, but goosestepping is dangerous and not useful.

Other than the scales (which actually do have proper 'given' fingerings), the 'right' fingerings depend very much on what is right for your own hand. So, you can figure this out for yourself, starting out with the given fingering (if it exists). My teacher's memorable quote on this was, "A lot of it is bunk," so look at the fingerings as suggestions only.

It can help to print out a work copy and mark it up as much as you want, with the fingering for every single note. You figure it out by experiment. Sometimes you'll choose a position so you don't run out of fingers for the phrase, or to use your stronger fingers, or to avoid a risky jump. The thing is, once you decide on a certain fingering, stick with it--- don't change fingerings every time you play the same piece.

You might find it helpful to try over the Burgmuller etudes; they are easy, and the proper fingerings are given, and you can download them at this link:
http://www.gate.net/~nnomoto/burgmuller/burgmull.htm

If your teacher has given you instructions about your seated posture and the way to hold your arms when playing, keep this in mind as you practice. Essentially, we want an erect but flexible posture, with the hands and wrists held pretty much in a level line with the forearm. The seat should be adjusted to a height where this posture is natural and comfortable. Especially avoid drastic bending of the wrists (for example, 'reaching up' to play), as this can irritate the tendons over time and cause pain.

If you have a hymnbook, there's a lot of good practice to be had using tunes that you may already be familiar with, in pretty easy arrangements. It may help you to play the scale a few times before you start the tune.

Best of luck with your summer learning.

Thank You. I have all of Hanon's exercises on file right now actually. Some people suggest not going and dong them all because some people have reported injuries while playing some of the Hanon Exercises. I think that is what I heard. But I am sure it is okay to practice scales and arpeggios. By the way. What exactly is an arpeggio?

Adding to all of the above - I suggest you learn to play lots of Bach. Painstakingly working out the fingering for his pieces has helped me a great deal.

Bach, Scarlatti, and the rest of those Baroque composers also teach you how to do finger legato which is really good, too, because you can't always rely on the pedal.

Is that why the Two-Part Inventions were recommended to me?

I'm sure that's part of the reason. Personally, I prefer the Well Tempered Clavier to the inventions.

Me too, but I think it would be a bit of a stretch to go from Chopin's Prelude in E Minor to the WTC don't you think? Inventions are, at least to me, a stepping stone to hit before getting into much of the WTC.

The two-part inventions are an introduction to contrapuntal playing and a good preparation for the more complicated fugues of the WTC.

Here's my list of basic fingering concepts:

The hand falls most naturally onto the keys with the long fingers on short keys, short fingers on long keys.

The hand is most comfortable in its closed position.

The fourth finger can be made to feel and sound as strong as the others do, if its movements are understood.

The position of the thumb when passing under the hand is approximately behind the finger that is playing. At no time should the thumb feel pulled or held under or against the hand.

The hand remains straight with the arm, but may be at an angle with the keyboard, not twisted, i.e., to avoid the black keys.

The thumb and fifth finger may play on the black keys with ease as long as it is understood how to get there and away again.

Since piano keys are levers, the point of least resistance is at the end farthest from the fulcrum. Therefore, the thumb should not be required to hang above the white keys. It may be off the keyboard entirely until it is needed.

Select fingering to avoid stretching. Use a thumb crossing instead.

Select fingering to avoid crowding, i.e., thumb next to 5.

Octaves should not be fingered (legato is an illusion at best). Use all fives.

Consider re-dividing between the hands.

Uncross hands where feasible.

Arbitrarily avoiding 5-5 or 1-1 is not necessary.

Choosing consistent fingering merely because the shape of a passage is consistent (i.e., as in a sequence) is not necessary.

Arbitrarily changing fingers on repeated notes is not necessary.

Advanced Concepts:

The fifth finger may cross over the thumb and the thumb may cross over the fifth finger, particularly in the playing of dominant seventh arpeggios.

Rapid repeated notes are best articulated by beginning each group with the thumb followed by 3 and 2 (triplets) or followed by 4,3,2 (quadruplets).

Play chromatic thirds by repeating the thumb and crossing a longer finger over a shorter finger.

Those Etudes you gave me are great. I mean the two I was able to download anyways.

I think I found another issue that is all my own though. I stress out a lot when it comes to eighth notes. Used to not be a problem. Now I tense up when I hit them. The only method here is play the piece at a maximum of 40 beats per minute.

No.

The PM I sent you indicated you should buy a version with extensive fingering marked in the score...a good student edition. I don't think you're at the point where you should try to figure out fingerings by yourself...especially in Bach, where fingering choices are in general more numerous and harder than in other music. That's precisely why they have these student editions. It's better to try and figure out why the specific fingerings were chosen by the editor.

For Bach one free possibility with IMO good fingering is the Busoni edition available at IMSLP. You have to be aware that the other extensive indications of articulations, phrasing, and pedalling in those editions are not necessarily what most of today's pianists would choose.

Thank you for that list of fingering principles, NeilOS. Can you clarify this comment about octaves?

I seem to find the one No. 1 of a slight difficulty to me. Even playing it slow is stressing me out. I don't understand why I stress out so easily at the piano now. Maybe I should tackles something else from Bach instead of his inventions.

Sometimes pianists like to finger octaves (4,5 or 3,4,5) thinking that it is 1) more facile and/or 2) more legato. I think both are false. Octaves are actually more facile (in quick passages) when 5 is repeated and just as legato, which is an illusion on the piano anyway since it is a percussive instrument. I won't try to describe the technique completely here because it really needs to be demonstrated. Suffice it to say that an understanding of some underlying tools is required, i.e., how the forearm works and the concept of shaping, particularly in/out.

Fingering octaves can lead to fatigue and injury if overdone. I believe Graffman's problems come from this, and possibly Fleisher's (but don't have first-hand knowledge of this). And I've seen other less prominent examples.

I found this one interesting because Earl Wild mentions it several times in his recently published autobiography. I think his reason for using 1-5 almost all the time may have been different. Something about(trying to remember the best I can, but it may be wrong) the hand's strongest or most natural postion being 1-2-5.

The inventions are already somewhat advanced. Why not have a look at some of the pieces from Anna Magdelena Bach or some of the easier dance movements in the suites?

One-five on an octave is a solid feeling. I didn't know Wild wrote about that; good to know. For my hand, 1, 2, 5 is fine if 1 to 2 is a major third, otherwise I have to accommodate (I call it scissors).

The simplest way to solve this problem is to play with the sheet music, and not look at your hands. Besides improving sight-reading, since your eyes can be glued to the score, this allows your hands to find the best fingering and technique on their own, with no special effort on your part. This solves the whole problem of fingering technique in one fell swoop, greatly simplifying playing. This way, you never have to read another finger number on a score again.

Note that when you do this, you should not be concerned by any seemingly offbeat or "incorrect" fingering that your hands may find for you. Your hands are a part of you and know what is best for your body, unlike some hack editor at a music publisher, who puts in one-size-fits-all fingering just so that the score can show some finger numbers for the buying public, who will not by a score that is not rife with worthless fingering numbers. For example, my hands favor crossing the fourth finger over the fifth, and will do it whenever possible--this would be considered "non-standard" today, but I love to do this. I also will use the same finger on adjacent keys whenever possible, like playing Bb A with 4 4 instead of 4 3. And I don't really like to cross fingers to move around on the keyboard, preferring to simply leap with the whole hand instead. These are the kinds of individual quirks that will show up when you let your hands find the right fingering on their own. You should not be alarmed by them, but rather embrace them, as they are what is best for you individually, which some editorial hack or teacher can never know.

Side note: Four over five is quite usual today (a longer finger over a shorter finger) and was used in Bach's day.

I like your idea of making it easy; I hope your movements are also efficient for speed.

Check out #25 from Brahms' 51 Exercises - it's a fun - and harmonically beautiful - way to practice that technique. (Use his fingerings, though.)

That's interesting. I was taught to play octaves with 1-5 on white keys and 1-4 on black ones when I first tackled a piece that contained octave scales (Schubert's D664), and after a while, found it perfectly logical, and have always played octave scales such. It just feels more fluent to me, and I've never had any issues with RSI.

See your other thread for my take on fingering. As for the suggestion that you only us 1-5 for octaves, I disagree unless your hands are small and can't do much else. Siloti, the cousin and teacher of Rachmaninoff played the left-hand octaves in the Chopin Op. 53 Polonaise with 2345 and 1. He had a large hand.
My teacher advised 1-5 on the white and 1-4 on the black and that is what I do and have no problem and it facilitates movements nicely. I can stretch an 11th but can't 'play' it. I can do 10ths tho. How big is your hand? Hanon, in itself, is not injurious to anyone. It is the way it is practised by the unknowledgable. I've done it for a long time and never had any bad results. Similar exercises by others would cause the same injuries if done incorrectly.

Etudes for Younger Serious Pianists

Like BruceD and others--I suggested editions that have fairly extensive fingering. It is up to you to study it and see that each finger is placed on the same key each time you practise so that you develop the consistency needed. Playing any exercise or scale with ever changing fingers would not establish the patterns you need to develop.

The same fingers should be used each time you practise a passage or piece.

Read the essay on fingering at the bottom of this page:

http://www.wirthcenter.org/support.htm

(And donate if you can, it's well worth it!)

By the way, people should also buy his Gravi-DVD. It's one of the best explanations of fundamental technique out there.

I think the danger in fingered octaves is over doing it in speed. If it feels easy in your hands and you don't fall victim to the passion of the moment, it may be just fine for you. Just know the potential for injury is there. If when your hand in speed stays open in the 1-4 position, ask yourself if it feels like an extreme. If you ever feel fatigue, stop. (I can play octaves with 4, 5 even 3,4,5, but I know that it keeps my hand too open for too long if I practice serious octaves.)

Re Hanon: You are exactly right. You can play anything you want as long as you do it correctly. But if you know how to do Hanon, what's the point in doing it? (That's the question you should ask yourself. Do exercises if you want. Just be clear why you are doing them if you are interested in efficient use of time.)

Thanks for that very interesting link. As I've always said, you can tell a lot about a person's concept of technique by his fingering choices. ( I was shocked to find that he uses my "secret" fingering in the Grand Polonaise!)

The Community School looks like a worthy cause.