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Jazzwee, All The Things You Are sounds really good! It seems like you are more comfortable with this tune than Stella. Have you spent more time working on it? I notice that you side step the changes in your lines and you seem much more connected aurally to the changes. Even though it still has that wandering kind of feel to it, it maintains a higher level of interest in the way you target the chord tones with chromatic approaches. It makes the wandering sound good to me. And I also like the counter point in the left hand! That's the way to good solo piano

Scott, thanks. I probably worked on this as much as Stella. Although ATTYA is a pedagogical piece between me and my teacher. So I've probably analyzed it more.

But your two triad thing really helped as I visualized more of it than usual. So even Stella would likely sound different.

I'd like to get more specific on what you mean by wandering so I can be aware of it. I don't intellectualize what I play and it's always been aural with me, good or bad. Often limited by technique. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't.

I was trying to do more with the LH but once I turn the recorder on, the LH hesitates. I want to get to a point where it actually contributes to the solo. I didn't even realize that I was able to do some counterpoint on it. Usually I can do more of that.

Where is this counterpoint? I did intend my LH to play some lines but I didn't do any. Maybe once. And you guys heard that?

Counterpoint type stuff on the LH is good though for giving some tonal range to the sound, particularly at this tempo. I need to get back to practicing that heavily.

1:16 - 1:30 (approx) you even played more than 1 note in your RH in one place

To me wandering is having lines that are more like little phrases that are linked together and are constantly shifting...compared to having more direction by playing larger complete melodic ideas that have more pronounced resolutions, both melodically and rhythmically. I would also say that wandering has less breaks in the lines. Kind of like run-on sentences. This is not to say that there aren't any breaks... just that they aren't as strong or frequent. Hope this makes sense.

Scott - re: Wandering, under that definition, we'll have some disagreement. I was taught to split lines like that for syncopation. Unexpected breaks, and shifting of melodic ideas.

I would be specifically told to practice that at medium uptempo to uptempo, where a melodic snippet could be as short as 3 notes and then change again.

Am I misunderstanding you here?

BTW - my main structure for creating lines is conceptually the same as the book Forward Motion by Hal Galper. Chord tones of the harmony I'm implying on downbeats. So when you hear side shifting, then that would be a reharm or inner voice movement. I try to stick to this as a baseline though not always successful.

Interesting reaction on LH stuff. I posted this in Aug 09.

Two handed ATTYA Recording from August 09
http://www.box.net/shared/14r2lhylqy

Forgive the bad technique (very bad legato). But the idea is a very involved LH. I stopped practicing this because my LH was so deficient. It's much better now. So maybe I can continue what I started here.

So if you can all dispense with the technical limitations at the time, you can look at it for intent. Playing like this also has a specific rhythmic effect it seems. It doesn't swing.

Doesn't swing??? I think it does.
But yes, nice with LH moving. Now if you just could hold a chord now and again, or even two notes . . . .

I must say that I didn't get the "wandering" bit as well. To me, wandering means: move about aimlessly.

Nice idea. I'll try that. This was long ago so it has to be restudied. Maybe the effect still swings but it's really more from syncopation between the two hands. I remember having to think even 8ths to do this.

Unfortunately this style of playing is not something I can learn from my teacher. I've talked about it with him and he says the RH is still too dominant (when I played in front of him). This is why I stopped and did more LH work.

For now I'm practicing LH walking bass regularly to build more dexterity. However this style of playing means the LH has to play 8ths, and not quarter notes.

Maybe you sharper guys can point out specific points in the recording to listen to.

Are you talking about 'wandering'? Well we need to get agreement on what that is first.

IMHO Jazz is improvisational so the moment you pre-compose an idea (which assures some tight organization) I think it moves to a different realm. If that is what Scott means. I'm not sure yet.

I think that the higher you are in the food chain, the ideas connect for longer progressions with more cohesion. Being at the lower end of the food chain, there's a tendency for me to think Chord/Scale much too often rather than a horizontal (multi chord idea). That's certainly a fault of everyone new to jazz. So I don't know if that's what wandering is.

So it's a good point for discussion.

Gig turned out good BTW. Piano was surprisingly tuned and regulated and projected well.

This is one of the few times I've done this and especially early on when there were fewer people, it was very exposed playing. Later on people kept talking to me so it was a good test of skill to have a conversation while playing jazz. Good comments after so apparently I sounded good.

Regarding wandering, I think that isn't really the right word. Mainly because it has negative implications. What I am thinking of as wandering isn't something bad. It's more of a relative position. Even the idea of run-on sentences isn't really it. It's more like phrases in poetry...compared to sentences in a novel. They are both good, just a different approach. I think I mentioned before that I think of Keith Jarrett as being wandering, and Oscar Peterson not so much. And by the way, I like both players, but I prefer Keith Jarrett.

Any suggestions on what the word is for this?

Maybe I'm just crazy and you all should ignore me!

I think this is what a large part of Oscar Peterson's playing consists of. If you transcribe his stuff there are alot of very structured ideas that occur exactly the same way many times in his playing... things he must have worked out in advance at some point in his development and memorized. Whereas Keith Jarrett tends to be less repetitive and more experimental. What resemblence that you do find in Keith Jarrett's playing is vague... seemingly more like a subconscious recollection of internalized sounds that have been played before, but without specific and exact reproduction. Again, maybe I'm just crazy!

I agree. Sounds good and would be worth revisiting. It is more of a syncopated swing though, not doo-duh-luh. Have you tried transcribing any solo piano? I've only transcribed parts of a few things but it really helped with getting some ideas. Especially rhythmically, which to me is the hardest thing about figuring out what to do with the LH when playing solo.

Wandering
Based on your description Scott, I think I understand though I don't have a term for that. Wandering is not a good word here because it implies a lengthened search. The style that you talk about is really short syncopated phrases that are not interconnected. It's something I specifically learned to do since it's typical of modern jazz. And they're usually short concepts so there's no time to even wander (in the true meaning of the word).

I also do the long lyrical lines which require more advanced thinking. If copied, I guess I would call it a lick. If spontaneous ala Miles Davis, I just refer to it as "Horizontal Playing". Do you ever use that term? Levine makes use of the term Vertical (Bebop) vs. Horizontal (West Coast Jazz in the Miles Davis School).

So both approaches are legitimate. For me at least, it would depend on the tune. Someday My Prince will Come seems to work better with long lines made up of chord tones. Giant Steps doesn't allow much opportunity for such playing so I would approach that as short phrases. In fact I was just practicing that a moment ago.

Oscar Peterson
I tend to agree with your comments. Many love Oscar because of his profound technique. But I really never look at him as an innovator for the reasons you say. He's really pattern based and there are other players similar to him. He just does it so fast that you don't notice. But in his defense, it's not easy constantly playing that fast unless you have some set concepts. However, I can't ever play that fast so I can say learning these patterns is not high on my list

2 Handed Stuff
Transcribing - this stuff is just so unusual that it's not easy to find something to copy. It could be super difficult like Mehldau or Keith but nothing that I could execute.

However, I don't see the problem of just thinking of it as improvising with 2 hands. I just have to switch thinking for each hand. It's impossible to play it simultaneously without some licks that one can practice. True counterpoint involves advance planning.

But it's interesting isn't it? And the syncopation between the two hands give it some rhythmic interest. Long term project. I use ATTYA as my platform for figuring this out.

Just a quick jump into the discussion, early Oscar (1959): Plays Porgy and Bess this album was my first jazz album wow! I was 13. It still makes me go wow!
I highly recommend it.

Jazzwee, I think we are pretty much on the same page. I am familiar with horizontal and vertical approaches, which sort of gets at what I am saying. Although, in the end I'm still not really sure how to explain what I'm thinking of. The main thing is that I didn't mean for it to be negative. If I figure it out better, I'll let you know.

Regarding 2 handed playing, I agree about it being difficult to find stuff to transcribe. I've had the most luck with Kenny Barron... particularly with his album "At the Piano" and his duet with Stan Getz, "People Time", but this stuff isn't counterpoint. I think what you're doing sounds good though.

Scott, the main source for listening to the disconnected phrase approach is probably Herbie. He's also my syncopation model. I probably listen to him when I feel like my syncopation needs to improve or I need to break up my lines in some unique way.

KJ is not as disconnected I feel because his lines are very long and very legato. So it sounds like one long idea technically speaking.

It is really interesting to take part of these concepts that these players convey and apply it at different moments.

Transcribing
I haven't really done much transcription. However, I'm perhaps doing it by ear. I'm however sensitive to shapes of lines and I'm able to apply it without actually writing it out. I have a tendency to analyze each line relative to the underlying chord (b9, #5, 3, b3, b7 that kind of thing). It's my way of learning what they do.

My teacher hasn't really been big on pushing me to transcribe. Neither does he teach me any licks. So it seems he's looking for some music to come out of me. And it seems to be working. I haven't been doing this that long