Zachary i have a curiosity and since i see that you're an advanced player acustommed with both digital and acoustic pianos i d like to get an impresion from you about a certain aspect. Do you get playing the N1 the same connection with the music as you get with the acoustic? Is N1 capable of outputting what you as a player input? What others differences or similarities are between N1 and an acoustic? Im only reffering to the sound, i know about the action.

Hello Ovidiu, good questions. So far, a week into owning the N1 I'd have to say overall, because of the action, I'm able to express dynamics and get certain nuances out of the music that I couldn't get with straight digital pianos. Because the AvantGrands are able to detect at the very least, several hundred layers of velocity, thanks to the optical sensors, you can play as expressively as an acoustic, and when I'm playing without the headphones on, through the speakers, it's a pretty magical experience, because in the end, it's still half digital, though it gives the impression of playing on an acoustic. The AvantGrand N3 must be a real experience because you're getting the resonance from the small grand piano body combined with the TRS, authentic grand piano pedals, and the speaker system laid out in front of you like a real grand.

As far as the sound goes, of all the things about the N1, it's the weakest part. That's saying a lot because sound is still quite good, and the best available to my ears of any Yamaha digital piano. I think the way in which Yamaha sampled the sounds with the different mic placement and how Yamaha uses the Spatial Acoustic Sampling (what they call it) through their speaker system makes the sampled sounds better than they would be. This explains why the AvantGrands sound better through their speaker system than through headphones.

Personally, I don't agree. I own an Yamaha AvantGrand N2, a Steinway B acoustic and a Roland RD-700NX. (We have a 5 month old baby for those wondering what's up with the Steinway.) I think the Roland is more responsive and detailed and interesting to hear/listen to than the N2; it certainly seems to have a more varied color palette. That being said, I LIKE playing the N2. This morning, for example, I particularly enjoyed playing a Mozart sonata (K 330) with it and then switching to the bright piano voice and playing the Maple Leaf Rag. But for me the primary virtue of the N2 is that it's the heaviest action among the pianos I own.

This point of "several hundred layers of velocity" I want to specifically address. I don't see it. Indeed, I see less detail in this instrument than the standard MIDI range of 0 to 127 would allow. The "several hundred layers" statement implies that there's more than MIDI going on inside the instrument, and that it therefore converts information to standard MIDI when sending MIDI out. I do not detect this when playing the N2. Moreover, I detect MORE detail when playing the Supernatural Roland.

Now, one way to check the "several hundred layers of velocity" would be to plug an AvantGrand via MIDI into another AvantGrand and see if there is a loss of detail when using one Avant to control another via MIDI. I have not done that. But I have done this: I've looked at the MIDI numbers generated by the three AvantGrand pedals. The AG una corda pedal is an on/off switch -- it's either 0 or 127, no gray whatsoever. The sustain pedal has about 10 to 15 levels, as far as I can remember (you go from 0 to, say, 25 to, say 37 -- distinct jumps) -- which is sufficient detail for a sustain pedal, I will acknowledge. But, by contrast, the three pedal set from Roland (the RPU-3) is a gang of three continuous pedals. Una corda: 0 to 127. The sustain pedal has more granularity too -- you can move more smoothly through the 0 to 127 range. Of course, just because the Roland pedal outputs fine and smooth gradations from 0 to 127 does not mean the Roland keyboard uses all these fine gradations. But that's not my point. My point is: If Yamaha has "several hundred layers of velocity" why does it have a mere on/off switch for an una corda? In my mind, if we're talking verisimilitude, this is not a wholly trivial point.

Zachary, I think you're absolutely correct that the action is a real source of pleasure in the AvantGrands. Have you plugged your N1 into your Nord or a software piano? And if so, what did you think? Do you prefer the internal samples of the Yamaha and are they more detailed than the Nord/software piano?

It is my belief that the AGs recognise a greater number of playing velocities - greater than the MIDI standard of 127. From memory it is 1056 or something like that. Yamaha may well have found a way to replay 1056 (or whatever it is) different "levels"...but the vast majority of this will be the replay of minutely differing VOLUME levels, not minutely differing TIMBRAL levels. This could well explain why the Roland can exhibit greater tonal change across its spectrum. Unfortunately the Roland to my ears becomes too metallic and twangy at higher velocities. In terms of pure sample layers, the Yamaha will have perhaps half a dozen layers (maybe even less)...but the resolution of volume levels within this is very fine (or so I believe).

I agree with Zach - the business of playing the AG through its own sound system is a strikingly acoustic experience. I have the slight advantage of having the N3. If you hit notes fff repeatedly, the effect is CUMULATIVE, just like on a real acoustic piano - it gets louder and louder and more and more resonant. After several strikes of a note or chord you end up with a sound that can never be reproduced with a single strike, no matter how hard you play. This effect is due to the soundboard resonator - it just thunders and swells when you build it up.

Steve

Yeah the action is really the only reason I bought the N1. I know it sounds expensive, but considering the price, space, and quality of the N1, it's unbeatable in terms of an instrument to build technique on. I actually owned an RD-700GXF (which for all intents and purposes plays and sounds just like the NX, which I also briefly owned) with the RPU-3 pedals, and while that was a great sounding playing keyboard, it's still a long shot from the real thing. I've been religiously called out for the last 4 years for problems with my technique thanks to practicing on a keyboard all of my 7 and a half years. The N1 is a tool, albeit a nice tool, but nonetheless a tool for my technique. I want to become a quite accomplished piano player, if I'm blessed, on a successful professional level, and I felt that the N1 with all my limitations now, was the only alternative for me. I've found already transitioning to the grand pianos I gig on is already far less problematic.

As far as connecting the Nord up to the N1, I haven't yet, but I am definitely going to. I'm wondering can I merely hook up the midi/USB cable from the Nord to the N1 and go from there? What else would be involved? I'm a little tech illiterate with these at times! Perhaps I'll do some digging on my own.

Totally agree. The AGs to me behave much more like an acoustic, not just in the obvious authentic action but just overall.

That is an interesting observation. I'll have to dust of the Rachmaninoff c# minor prelude and test this out on the N2. The piano does appear to have some resonance to it, but I have not explored its potential in this area. This may explain why the AvantGrands seem to sound better when used without headphones.

I think N1 doesnt have resonators....or does it?

When you do a comparison of specs on the Yamaha website, the soundboard resonator shows up in the N3 and the N2.

It's probably pretty trivial in any keyboard firmware to get more than 127 velocity levels, all it takes is finer timing resolution. If a curve or offset is applied to the response, then to do it right you really do need higher input resolution in order to get 1-127 and everything in-between at the MIDI out jack. Internally you could do almost anything that makes sense.

If the average DP dynamic range is somewhere around 45 dB, then each velocity step (making the leap that a linear velocity change corresponds to an exponential SPL change) would represent 45 / 127 = 0.35 dB. I think a 1 dB change in SPL is barely audible, though if coupled with timbre change perhaps less would be audible.

What would you do with more than 127 velocity levels? The dynamic range of a piano, divided by 127 levels ... yields a fraction of a decibel per step. Not enough to notice. And anyway ... you'd have to be a pretty good pianist to exercise that many levels.

I don't doubt that the AG outperforms most other pianos. But it's not the result of more velocity levels.

The 2009 AvantGrand brochure indicates that the N2 does not have a soundboard resonator.

http://www.yamaha.com/catalogs/PDFs/brochures/pianos/acoustic_pianos/AvantGrand2009_Brochure.pdf

Here's a great sounding AvantGrand N2 video for all wondering what a more realistic recording of the N2 sounds like. This is what my N1 sounds like to my ears:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKvXYJjTySQ&feature=related

Thanks! It seems you are a better youtube digger than me:D It sounds absolutely fantastic!

Zachary, congratulations! I just back back from two and half weeks in the UK and am catching up on e-mail.

Thanks! But isn't the most realistic AG sound via the speakers? I ask this because the player is wearing headphones, and I'm not hearing any key action or room sounds, so I assume this was recorded via the line-out or headphone jack (I don't believe the AG has an internal WAV recorder)?

The lower midrange in this recording sounds a little fake to me, perhaps due to the very short loops.

Yeah it's definitely recorded direct into something, so obviously not the sound of the speakers, which honestly sounds even better than the sound in the video. However, many AG videos out there, which are almost all done direct-in don't do justice to the sound through the speakers themselves. This however sounds quite good overall.

Alas, I agree with you dewster that the lower midrange is the weakest part sound-wise. It has that classic short-decay DP sound. The lowest octave sounds great though, very big, and very close to the CFIIIS I played at the Yamaha dealer. I wish there was also a way to do more tweaking to the sounds, and a greater depth of reverb. I guess the Nord's wonderful flexibility has spoiled me a bit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5vU_t1tPH4&feature=related

Here we can see what he is recording into. Some specialized small device...Maybe you guys can recognize what exactly is...

I could be wrong, but it looks as though he's recording using a mic and not going directly?

On the second video, it looks like he's recording the sound from the speakers using a mic. And it sounds great!

I think you're right. In the first video (the one I was commenting on) it looks like there is a recorder sitting on the left side of the music rest.

In the second video it is clearly laying sideways on the right side of the music rest, and plugged into an external stereo microphone located behind the music rest.

Maybe an Olympus LS-11?

Zachary, so appreciate your comments re the AG N1. There is only one Yamaha dealer where I live, and they couldn't tell me when they'd get an N1 but said it would be "a while." They also couldn't give me even a "street price" quote. Would you mind terribly disclosing at least the price range of these?

I played the AG N3, as that's all they had, and it was stupendous! But out of my range, even if I can sell my acoustic piano. They quoted me $10K for the N2!

Many thanks. I'm an amateur classical player but it's very important to me.

Laurie

I responded on the other thread but I can respond here too, I paid $8,000 for my N1, so $10,000 is a good deal for the N2. If the dealer can quote you about $7,500 or less for the N1, then I'd definitely go for the N1. If they quote a price of $8,000 or a little more for the N1, then you could go either way. I just didn't feel the TRS and better sound system of the N2 was worth the $2,000-$3,000 premium over the N1.

Zachary, thank you very much for that very helpful (and prompt!) reply.

Laurie

You're very welcome Laurie! Hope it works out for you. Play both the N1 and N2. For $10,000, the N2 is an extremely good value. That means the dealer has come down 33.3% which is a substantial discount off MSRP. I still would take my N1 for $8,000 since it's so close to the N2 in both look and feel. If I wanted to spend more than what I did for an AvantGrand I'd go for the N3 myself.

$10,000 for the N2 is pretty good! The dealer over here quoted $11,000.

About the differences between the N1 and N2, I felt that the sound of the N1 is more realistic due to the way its speakers are positioned, but the acrylic resin keytops make my fingers "stick" to the keys when trying to perform some rapid passages and sudden changes in hand position. On the other hand, while the keytops and TRS on the N2 make it feel closer to an acoustic piano, that lid over the speakers ruins the sound projection and makes my ears ring while playing certain notes.

Overall, the N1 is a better value IMO. It still feels very realistic even without the TRS. The sound that comes out of it is amazing, and you do feel it vibrate if you turn up the volume. Most people here on PW that tried the N2 and N1 said they couldn't feel a difference between their keytops.

Zachary, N1 on yours pics looks really good and they're better presenting this instrument then pics on yamaha site...You're right looking from the front N1 is a grand piano...and then the back was cut off - unfortunately

Did you play the N2 with the lid open? It makes all the difference in the world. I never played mine with the lid down, since the lid certainly does smother the sound from the speakers.