...and I couldn't possibly be more satisfied with it. The sound is much better through the speakers than through headphones...there's a first. It plays amazing, feels amazing, sounds really good, and I even like the coffin-box like shape! It's a real achievement from Yamaha. Very happy with my decision and considering my space, money, and sound (neighbors) constraints, and needing the next best thing to a grand piano, well the AvantGrand N1 is it. Count me as one of the very happy AvantGrand owners.

And some pics:

Nice. Looks totally sweet. I'm jealous. You look like Matt Bellamy playing piano in the second pic.

Please provide detailed impressions. My singer is thinking about getting one.

Thanks Hideki! Matt's a great musician. I've been a huge fan of Muse for years...which is odd, because I don't really listen to much rock other than them.

The N1 is a much prettier instrument in person, no doubt. I'll definitely PM you more detailed impressions but I can tell you it behaves just like an acoustic piano. Even without the TRS system, it vibrates and feels, and responds like a yamaha grand. As I finished up the paperwork this morning, I played on a new C5, and was astounded at how close the N1 behaved like it. For small space, smaller budget, silent ability, I really don't know what else is an adequate grand piano replacement.

Congrats Zachary on an amazing acquisition... I agree this is one of those cases where listening to recordings or youtube videos will not give a fair impression of what its like to be actually playing it and listening through the dedicated onboard audio system. Congrats!

Please, share all the impressions here so we can all benefit from them. Best regards,
Rafa.

Zachary,

Appears to be a very nice instrument as it looks simply fantastic!

Let's hear all of the details, about the sounds & action.

pv88

As it's approaching my bedtime I'm tuning off tonight, but will post more detailed impressions for sure. Thank you guys.

Congratulations, Zachary!

I can empathize a bit since I'm a new N2 owner and absolutely love mine.

Enjoy!

Paul

Yes I have been following Muse since I first saw them at the Wiltern back in 04. A fantastic live band. They are one of the few modern bands I like, primarily because of their live performances and because their older songs had quite a bit of piano.

I think it looks great in the pictures and really loved the N3 action. I'm sure it will keep you busy.

Congrats Zachary, the N1 looks beautiful!

+1 on MUSE too - an absolutely phenomenal live band!

Cheers,
James
x

I saw them about 8 months ago for my 5th time. The only other performers I have seen as much are Maceo Parker, Larry Carlton, Jane Monheit and Buddy Guy. Nothing like live music.

Two other bands that are worth checking out live are Mew and Porcupine Tree.

Congratulations from me too, Zachary. Great players deserve great instruments!

That is beautiful! Very sleek and elegant. Kudos to Yamaha on this design. I think this is the perfect sweet spot for a hybrid digital piano. I've played them and their action/response beat the snot out of any DP I've played.

Sometimes I warm up on a showroom AG if my piano teacher is running late and I prefer those over the baby grand in her piano room, which only seems to hold a tune for about 3 weeks at a time. Plus, the Avantgrand action is better than her baby grand's.

Congratulation Zachary! Its beautifull! Could you make an youtube video about it, maybe playing few tunes?

Very nice, Zachary. So how would you describe it in terms of sound quality and realism? By that, I'm referring to things like string resonance, decay/looping issues, sample layer switching, dynamic range. I ask because the general view going around is that Yamaha aren't as developed in this regard as Roland and Kawai. I'm curious to know if it's actually true. Are you ever aware of digital artefacts when playing? How does it sound when you crank it up to concert piano volume?

The N1 isn't available in Australia yet, as far as I know. If it's not too intrusive, what is the street price of the N1?

Oh wow. Just wow.

A big congrats mate! Keep us informed. Also tell us how it is connecting your NP to the AG.

Congrats Zachary! It looks really nice. I must say, now that we have decent amps & speakers hooked up to our NX the experience of playing it (not that I play much at all, but I often noodle around on both it and our acoustic grand for comparison purposes) and listening to others play on it is quite a bit more realistic. I'm hoping to soon make a short recording of my wife playing both so critical listeners here can comment on real vs. amplified digital.



I know it's not the same through headphones, but I just re-listened to the DPBSD MP3 of the N3:

http://www.mediafire.com/?omt2myziizn

We all know it isn't stretched, but Yamaha did a much better job with the pedal sympathetic resonance here than they normally do. The attack samples are longer than most loopers which helps a lot (though the loop samples for the lowest notes are really too short). I think maybe the string damp buzz is perhaps a bit overdone, but it does add to the realism. No layer switching that I can hear, and the 55 dB dynamic range is in the ballpark.

Congratulations Zachary! Looks just like a lid-down N3 from the front. The polished fall board and the lovely natural bounce back of the keys - very satisfying. Is your bench high enough? - looks like you could do with a couple more inches (I'm aware that has got smutty connotations )

Enjoy it and post some YT videos!

Steve

One thing I've noticed on the N2 regarding the pedal when playing through headphones: If you play a note or chord without pedal and keep holding that note or chord, then engage the pedal, the sound gets a bit louder as the sympathetic resonance effect gets triggered. It's a quirk that isn't a huge issue for me, but it's not a natural effect. I don't think it's as noticeable when playing the instrument without headphones.

I'm a piano snob... But I have to say it looks beautiful. Maybe an odd question, but is the body made of wood or plastic?

Wow, you're right, I can hear this quite distinctly in the N3 silent replay test. The note gets louder when the pedal is pressed and quieter when the pedal is lifted. They seem to be using the pedal to simply bring the effect into the mix. I think our NX behaves this way too. On our real piano the pedal down volume change isn't nearly as pronounced, though the pedal up volume change is, which makes sense as it takes some time for the undamped strings to pick up energy from the played note, all of which is then quickly damped at pedal up.

Congratulations, Zachary - I am sure that you'll have MANY hours of pleasure on this beautiful instrument,

Jonathan

Congrats Zac, it looks real nice.

Thanks everyone for the warm comments. Very much appreciated.

There's lots of questions so I'll do my best to answer them. Bear in mind I don't have the technical vocab that many of you do...I just know how to play the instrument.

Action:
The action is superb. After all, it's an authentic fully weighted grand piano action and the same one that goes into Yamaha's C class of pianos. After playing a new C5 after my paperwork yesterday, then walking back over to my N1, they felt and responded identically. No surprise there, however, as I already knew the AvantGrands have supreme action and response. It feels and plays as real as an acoustic piano. There are 3 levels of touch response- Light / Medium / Heavy. The weight of the action stays the same, but the sound is triggered faster the lighter you go. I've kept it on Med as I've found that to be the most natural feeling. The action will have to be regulated in several years, but that's the price you pay for having the real deal action wise. So, with that said, the action is superb.

Sound:
I first have to say, sound was on the bottom of my criteria, so I didn't put too much emphasis on sound. With that said, the sound through the speakers in person is night and day different than what I hear with the headphones. Through the speakers it's much more open and airy sounding, and more full throughout. It's not one of the strong points of the AvantGrands as they still have the classic somewhat boxed in sound of all sampled DPs, but the decay and sympathetic resonance is very well done and I only hear minimal looping when listening attentively to a long (unrealistic insomuch as I'd never let a note decay long enough to hear looping) decay. There's two grand pianos, mellow and bright. Both sound good and sound better for different kinds of music. I don't care for the other 2 EP sounds and harpsichord, so won't go into much there. I think the sounds people hear recorded and on the internet don't reflect the sound coming from the speakers in person.

Speaker System:
The speaker system is quite good, and the N1 is the least complex least impressive of the 3 AvantGrands, but it still sounds very good and you can tell they positioned the speakers to produce sound according to how the sound comes out of a grand piano. Kudos to Yamaha because it's not just the touch and sound that needs to be done right to mimic a grand, but also how the sound is coming out of the instrument.

Construction:
The N1 is a real work of art. It's a wooden body with a polish finish with chrome accents. The soft slow closing fall board is really nice. It feels like a real piano. It's sturdy and solid feeling and is beautiful in person. Internet pics do NO justice. The only gripe I've got is the pedal system on the N1 moves a little, in an up and down fashion, but only a few mm at most. I'd still like for that to have been stiffer, but I've stuck a square piece of cloth underneath and it's fine.

I haven't really explored too much yet, but in a nut shell, the N1 is in an entirely different class of DPs than everything else. The PHA III and RM3 Wooden actions offer a really nice touch that's very playable and friendly for acoustic piano playing, but they're still a ways off from a real grand piano. Although, I would argue the RM3 to be the next best thing to a real grand action. The RM3 Wooden action felt very close to Kawai's own grand pianos. It's almost like in the AvantGrands, you can feel that long wooden hammer which is obviously missing in all other DPs. All in all, I got exactly what I was looking for:

1. Touch/Action of a grand piano
2. Limited space
3. Silent practice

I'd recommend the N1 to anyone who wants/needs the action of a grand, has limited space for which to put the instrument, limited money to not afford a quality grand piano, and needs to practice silently to not bother neighbors. I found out yesterday that one of the head piano instructors at Blair Conservatory of Music (Vanderbilt University), known for their Classical music program, bought an N1 to teach lessons on. That says a lot for the overall package of the AvantGrands!

Kudos to Yamaha.

BTW, will post videos on YouTube when time permits...I'm a little lost in practice at the moment!

I'm sure that's really tough duty today!

Thanks for the detailed review.

Zachary,

It is important to take note as to whether or not the pedal assembly on your N1 contains a pedal screw, which is usually in the form of a small knob that you can turn by hand which makes contact to the floor to add additional stability to the pedal assembly. Be sure to check this by simply reaching down under the pedal assembly (if there is space to do so) to see if you have this pedal screw, as you mentioned putting a piece of cloth there to take up the movement, or, slack space.

I do know that both my Casio AP-620 and Kurzweil Mark Pro 3i have this pedal screw, and, if you do not adjust it properly you can risk breaking the assembly from the pressure exerted on the pedals. Since you have a grand-style pedal assembly this extra pedal screw may not apply to your N1, although you want to check it just to be sure.*

Also, enjoyed your review above, too!

pv88

Note:

* I checked out the N1 manual at the Yamaha website, and found that the N1 does have an "adjuster" (same as pedal screw) under the pedal assembly. This has to be lowered to the floor/carpet until firm contact is made to offer solid stability for your pedals.

Hey Zachary, congrats! I've enjoyed watching your collection wax and wane, so to speak. This one sounds like a winner as does your Nord 88.

Thanks for taking the time to post your review Zachary.

Cheers,
James
x

Very cool! Be careful, you have the beginnings of a collection.

Congrats.....mmmm...new Yammie..always the best....

Do you have time left to do other things in your life than playing piano???

Best regards,
Johan B

Zachary i have a curiosity and since i see that you're an advanced player acustommed with both digital and acoustic pianos i d like to get an impresion from you about a certain aspect. Do you get playing the N1 the same connection with the music as you get with the acoustic? Is N1 capable of outputting what you as a player input? What others differences or similarities are between N1 and an acoustic? Im only reffering to the sound, i know about the action.

Hello Ovidiu, good questions. So far, a week into owning the N1 I'd have to say overall, because of the action, I'm able to express dynamics and get certain nuances out of the music that I couldn't get with straight digital pianos. Because the AvantGrands are able to detect at the very least, several hundred layers of velocity, thanks to the optical sensors, you can play as expressively as an acoustic, and when I'm playing without the headphones on, through the speakers, it's a pretty magical experience, because in the end, it's still half digital, though it gives the impression of playing on an acoustic. The AvantGrand N3 must be a real experience because you're getting the resonance from the small grand piano body combined with the TRS, authentic grand piano pedals, and the speaker system laid out in front of you like a real grand.

As far as the sound goes, of all the things about the N1, it's the weakest part. That's saying a lot because sound is still quite good, and the best available to my ears of any Yamaha digital piano. I think the way in which Yamaha sampled the sounds with the different mic placement and how Yamaha uses the Spatial Acoustic Sampling (what they call it) through their speaker system makes the sampled sounds better than they would be. This explains why the AvantGrands sound better through their speaker system than through headphones.

Personally, I don't agree. I own an Yamaha AvantGrand N2, a Steinway B acoustic and a Roland RD-700NX. (We have a 5 month old baby for those wondering what's up with the Steinway.) I think the Roland is more responsive and detailed and interesting to hear/listen to than the N2; it certainly seems to have a more varied color palette. That being said, I LIKE playing the N2. This morning, for example, I particularly enjoyed playing a Mozart sonata (K 330) with it and then switching to the bright piano voice and playing the Maple Leaf Rag. But for me the primary virtue of the N2 is that it's the heaviest action among the pianos I own.

This point of "several hundred layers of velocity" I want to specifically address. I don't see it. Indeed, I see less detail in this instrument than the standard MIDI range of 0 to 127 would allow. The "several hundred layers" statement implies that there's more than MIDI going on inside the instrument, and that it therefore converts information to standard MIDI when sending MIDI out. I do not detect this when playing the N2. Moreover, I detect MORE detail when playing the Supernatural Roland.

Now, one way to check the "several hundred layers of velocity" would be to plug an AvantGrand via MIDI into another AvantGrand and see if there is a loss of detail when using one Avant to control another via MIDI. I have not done that. But I have done this: I've looked at the MIDI numbers generated by the three AvantGrand pedals. The AG una corda pedal is an on/off switch -- it's either 0 or 127, no gray whatsoever. The sustain pedal has about 10 to 15 levels, as far as I can remember (you go from 0 to, say, 25 to, say 37 -- distinct jumps) -- which is sufficient detail for a sustain pedal, I will acknowledge. But, by contrast, the three pedal set from Roland (the RPU-3) is a gang of three continuous pedals. Una corda: 0 to 127. The sustain pedal has more granularity too -- you can move more smoothly through the 0 to 127 range. Of course, just because the Roland pedal outputs fine and smooth gradations from 0 to 127 does not mean the Roland keyboard uses all these fine gradations. But that's not my point. My point is: If Yamaha has "several hundred layers of velocity" why does it have a mere on/off switch for an una corda? In my mind, if we're talking verisimilitude, this is not a wholly trivial point.

Zachary, I think you're absolutely correct that the action is a real source of pleasure in the AvantGrands. Have you plugged your N1 into your Nord or a software piano? And if so, what did you think? Do you prefer the internal samples of the Yamaha and are they more detailed than the Nord/software piano?

It is my belief that the AGs recognise a greater number of playing velocities - greater than the MIDI standard of 127. From memory it is 1056 or something like that. Yamaha may well have found a way to replay 1056 (or whatever it is) different "levels"...but the vast majority of this will be the replay of minutely differing VOLUME levels, not minutely differing TIMBRAL levels. This could well explain why the Roland can exhibit greater tonal change across its spectrum. Unfortunately the Roland to my ears becomes too metallic and twangy at higher velocities. In terms of pure sample layers, the Yamaha will have perhaps half a dozen layers (maybe even less)...but the resolution of volume levels within this is very fine (or so I believe).

I agree with Zach - the business of playing the AG through its own sound system is a strikingly acoustic experience. I have the slight advantage of having the N3. If you hit notes fff repeatedly, the effect is CUMULATIVE, just like on a real acoustic piano - it gets louder and louder and more and more resonant. After several strikes of a note or chord you end up with a sound that can never be reproduced with a single strike, no matter how hard you play. This effect is due to the soundboard resonator - it just thunders and swells when you build it up.

Steve

Yeah the action is really the only reason I bought the N1. I know it sounds expensive, but considering the price, space, and quality of the N1, it's unbeatable in terms of an instrument to build technique on. I actually owned an RD-700GXF (which for all intents and purposes plays and sounds just like the NX, which I also briefly owned) with the RPU-3 pedals, and while that was a great sounding playing keyboard, it's still a long shot from the real thing. I've been religiously called out for the last 4 years for problems with my technique thanks to practicing on a keyboard all of my 7 and a half years. The N1 is a tool, albeit a nice tool, but nonetheless a tool for my technique. I want to become a quite accomplished piano player, if I'm blessed, on a successful professional level, and I felt that the N1 with all my limitations now, was the only alternative for me. I've found already transitioning to the grand pianos I gig on is already far less problematic.

As far as connecting the Nord up to the N1, I haven't yet, but I am definitely going to. I'm wondering can I merely hook up the midi/USB cable from the Nord to the N1 and go from there? What else would be involved? I'm a little tech illiterate with these at times! Perhaps I'll do some digging on my own.

Totally agree. The AGs to me behave much more like an acoustic, not just in the obvious authentic action but just overall.

That is an interesting observation. I'll have to dust of the Rachmaninoff c# minor prelude and test this out on the N2. The piano does appear to have some resonance to it, but I have not explored its potential in this area. This may explain why the AvantGrands seem to sound better when used without headphones.

I think N1 doesnt have resonators....or does it?

When you do a comparison of specs on the Yamaha website, the soundboard resonator shows up in the N3 and the N2.

It's probably pretty trivial in any keyboard firmware to get more than 127 velocity levels, all it takes is finer timing resolution. If a curve or offset is applied to the response, then to do it right you really do need higher input resolution in order to get 1-127 and everything in-between at the MIDI out jack. Internally you could do almost anything that makes sense.

If the average DP dynamic range is somewhere around 45 dB, then each velocity step (making the leap that a linear velocity change corresponds to an exponential SPL change) would represent 45 / 127 = 0.35 dB. I think a 1 dB change in SPL is barely audible, though if coupled with timbre change perhaps less would be audible.

What would you do with more than 127 velocity levels? The dynamic range of a piano, divided by 127 levels ... yields a fraction of a decibel per step. Not enough to notice. And anyway ... you'd have to be a pretty good pianist to exercise that many levels.

I don't doubt that the AG outperforms most other pianos. But it's not the result of more velocity levels.

The 2009 AvantGrand brochure indicates that the N2 does not have a soundboard resonator.

http://www.yamaha.com/catalogs/PDFs/brochures/pianos/acoustic_pianos/AvantGrand2009_Brochure.pdf

Here's a great sounding AvantGrand N2 video for all wondering what a more realistic recording of the N2 sounds like. This is what my N1 sounds like to my ears:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKvXYJjTySQ&feature=related

Thanks! It seems you are a better youtube digger than me:D It sounds absolutely fantastic!

Zachary, congratulations! I just back back from two and half weeks in the UK and am catching up on e-mail.

Thanks! But isn't the most realistic AG sound via the speakers? I ask this because the player is wearing headphones, and I'm not hearing any key action or room sounds, so I assume this was recorded via the line-out or headphone jack (I don't believe the AG has an internal WAV recorder)?

The lower midrange in this recording sounds a little fake to me, perhaps due to the very short loops.

Yeah it's definitely recorded direct into something, so obviously not the sound of the speakers, which honestly sounds even better than the sound in the video. However, many AG videos out there, which are almost all done direct-in don't do justice to the sound through the speakers themselves. This however sounds quite good overall.

Alas, I agree with you dewster that the lower midrange is the weakest part sound-wise. It has that classic short-decay DP sound. The lowest octave sounds great though, very big, and very close to the CFIIIS I played at the Yamaha dealer. I wish there was also a way to do more tweaking to the sounds, and a greater depth of reverb. I guess the Nord's wonderful flexibility has spoiled me a bit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5vU_t1tPH4&feature=related

Here we can see what he is recording into. Some specialized small device...Maybe you guys can recognize what exactly is...

I could be wrong, but it looks as though he's recording using a mic and not going directly?

On the second video, it looks like he's recording the sound from the speakers using a mic. And it sounds great!

I think you're right. In the first video (the one I was commenting on) it looks like there is a recorder sitting on the left side of the music rest.

In the second video it is clearly laying sideways on the right side of the music rest, and plugged into an external stereo microphone located behind the music rest.

Maybe an Olympus LS-11?

Zachary, so appreciate your comments re the AG N1. There is only one Yamaha dealer where I live, and they couldn't tell me when they'd get an N1 but said it would be "a while." They also couldn't give me even a "street price" quote. Would you mind terribly disclosing at least the price range of these?

I played the AG N3, as that's all they had, and it was stupendous! But out of my range, even if I can sell my acoustic piano. They quoted me $10K for the N2!

Many thanks. I'm an amateur classical player but it's very important to me.

Laurie

I responded on the other thread but I can respond here too, I paid $8,000 for my N1, so $10,000 is a good deal for the N2. If the dealer can quote you about $7,500 or less for the N1, then I'd definitely go for the N1. If they quote a price of $8,000 or a little more for the N1, then you could go either way. I just didn't feel the TRS and better sound system of the N2 was worth the $2,000-$3,000 premium over the N1.

Zachary, thank you very much for that very helpful (and prompt!) reply.

Laurie

You're very welcome Laurie! Hope it works out for you. Play both the N1 and N2. For $10,000, the N2 is an extremely good value. That means the dealer has come down 33.3% which is a substantial discount off MSRP. I still would take my N1 for $8,000 since it's so close to the N2 in both look and feel. If I wanted to spend more than what I did for an AvantGrand I'd go for the N3 myself.

$10,000 for the N2 is pretty good! The dealer over here quoted $11,000.

About the differences between the N1 and N2, I felt that the sound of the N1 is more realistic due to the way its speakers are positioned, but the acrylic resin keytops make my fingers "stick" to the keys when trying to perform some rapid passages and sudden changes in hand position. On the other hand, while the keytops and TRS on the N2 make it feel closer to an acoustic piano, that lid over the speakers ruins the sound projection and makes my ears ring while playing certain notes.

Overall, the N1 is a better value IMO. It still feels very realistic even without the TRS. The sound that comes out of it is amazing, and you do feel it vibrate if you turn up the volume. Most people here on PW that tried the N2 and N1 said they couldn't feel a difference between their keytops.

Zachary, N1 on yours pics looks really good and they're better presenting this instrument then pics on yamaha site...You're right looking from the front N1 is a grand piano...and then the back was cut off - unfortunately

Did you play the N2 with the lid open? It makes all the difference in the world. I never played mine with the lid down, since the lid certainly does smother the sound from the speakers.