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#1719944 - 07/24/11 12:04 PM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: Loren D]
rysowers Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2340
Loc: Olympia, WA
I believe the reality is that different pianos require different techniques. On some pianos the "slow pull" is more effective and on others the jerk method is better. Some pianos I tune at 1 'O clock, and others at 3.

What helps is to have an arsenal of techniques that will help you deal with the eccentricities of the piano at hand.


Edited by rysowers (07/24/11 12:04 PM)
_________________________
Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net

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#1719994 - 07/24/11 01:36 PM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: rysowers]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3036
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: rysowers
I believe the reality is that different pianos require different techniques. On some pianos the "slow pull" is more effective and on others the jerk method is better. Some pianos I tune at 1 'O clock, and others at 3.

What helps is to have an arsenal of techniques that will help you deal with the eccentricities of the piano at hand.


Clearly, I agree with this. I could see that one of the people I had helped, struggling for over an hour just to set a temperament and failing badly, did not know how to manage a new piano with squeaky, tight and jumpy pins as I saw him attempt the slow pull method and heard the tuning pin lurch back and forth numerous times.

He told me that he had never tuned new pianos, only old ones that were usually not in very good condition. He came to the convention to learn and to take the tuning exam because he believes that becoming an RPT is the best thing he could do for himself. He already went to the school, has the certificate, learned the slow pull method on the old pianos at the school and also learned to tune a temperament sequence using 4ths & 5ths.

Six years ago, he had come to me to ask my advice. He demonstrated what he could do. Although he could tune excellent unisons, his temperament was, yes, sorry to say but in fact, true, reverse well and would not have passed the exam. He also had a rather poor concept of octaves.

From what I saw at the time, an attempt to pass the tuning exam would have been what is often seen with first time attempts, some good scores but others falling far short of passing. He also went to a local dealer who is an RPT and was told fairly bluntly that he would have to learn everything all over.

Naturally, he found both of our comments to be discouraging. He had the diploma! He trusted in what he had been taught. For the next few years, each time he asked me to listen to his temperament, it was always reverse well. As many have said, he had never heard of that, so he didn't know what I was talking about. I said that he would have to know what well temperament sounds like to understand. "We were not taught well temperament", he replied "Only equal temperament." "But your temperament is not equal", I countered. "The way I did it is the only way I know how. What am I doing wrong?", he asked.

It was not that he didn't know some checks, he did but his perception of them had not developed sufficiently enough to discern the errors he accepted as correct. "You have to try a different strategy", I said. "Like what?", he asked. "The contiguous thirds", I replied.

"Oh yeah, we learned something about those but I can't get them. I can't just pull beats out of thin air. I am better at 4ths and 5ths", he claimed. "Well, you are clearly not better at 4ths & 5ths since the result of tuning them is an unequal, not equal temperament", I said. "You must learn to do both", I insisted. "I can teach you what to do but you must be willing to learn something new or you will never progress beyond the point where you are now. It is not that what you were taught was wrong, you just have an incomplete understanding of it. In order for you to improve, you have to learn some new techniques", I told him.

It took a long time but slowly, he did improve. Still, while at the convention and wanting to practice, he could only find brand new squeaky tight-pinned Asian pianos to practice on. He had reverted to his slow pull method and that was what was causing him problems. He had always had a habit of blaming the piano for his inability to tune it. I told him that he had come to the end of the line for that.

"You must be able to adapt your technique to whatever resistance the piano has to offer. Any piano used for a tuning exam at the convention will likely be a new one with very tight tuning pins. That is not going to change. You have to change or you will fail but watch all the others who passed get their reward for it. They can do it, the examiners who did the master tuning had no problem with it, so either you find a way to do it that works or you never will.", I told him calmly but firmly.

He did have some impact skills within his range of technique and instantly found upon trying them that they indeed worked. He went on to take and pass the tuning exam the next day with some very impressive scores, three of them 100's in fact, one 88 which is still quite good but all the rest mid to high 90's. Not bad at all, above average and certainly above average for a first attempt.

Learning skills other than those which were traditionally taught was what it took for him to succeed. It is not about "my way" being the only way. I learned "my way" from other technicians in PTG. It is their way too. To suggest that I should not have shown that man what to do that would probably work for him because it "offends" some people in this forum is absurd.

I should not actually write the details and specifics of what to do that may work for some people when other methods have not because that is not "technical information", it is boasting and bragging. It is putting other people down so as to make myself look better. If that is what you, as an individual believe, you are entitled to your opinion. You have the right to express it and you also have the right to describe in your own words which techniques work the best for you, just as I do.

Some 30 years ago, I noticed that for every strongly held opinion or belief, there would eventually arise an opinion or belief contrary to it. I soon realized that this did not mean that one person was right and the other wrong. They were both right depending on certain factors, conditions and circumstances. It would be far more useful to try to understand where each is coming from than to take a polarized position.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1720313 - 07/25/11 12:01 AM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: Loren D]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1432
Loc: Mexico City
I have learned to tune ET aurally by reading Bill Bremmer's posts and articles in his site and here in PW.

Before that, I tuned visually, with an ETD.

All Bill teaches about tuning is clear and straight to the point. One has no problems to follow his instructions. All he says is factible, opposed to what is adviced by UnrightTooner , who never has a clear answer to specific questions (i.e. how to temper a fifth in ET = describe what an apple tastes like) but always finds a way to missinterpret, missquote, question and bash what Bill says.

I have learned not a single thing from what you have posted here Tooner, how dare you criticize the most prolific and successfull piano-tuning teacher of PW? You don't have sufficient moral and intellectual authority to criticize him.

Jeff, don't you see that the balance goes against you?

Apart from Doel Kees and several amateurs and neophytes you have no followers here and Bill Bremmer has tons of them.

Please stop your bashing! Your defamatory remarks and unfounded assertions are not welcome here!

When, if ever, you have something constructive to say then your posts will be appreciated.



Edited by Gadzar (07/25/11 12:03 AM)
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1720342 - 07/25/11 12:51 AM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: Gadzar]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1540
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Gadzar
I have learned to tune ET aurally by reading Bill Bremmer's posts and articles in his site and here in PW.
Me too
Originally Posted By: Gadzar

Before that, I tuned visually, with an ETD.
Before that I tuned baroque well tempered, aurally.
Originally Posted By: Gadzar

All Bill teaches about tuning is clear and straight to the point. One has no problems to follow his instructions. All he says is factible, opposed to what is adviced by UnrightTooner , who never has a clear answer to specific questions (i.e. how to temper a fifth in ET = describe what an apple tastes like) but always finds a way to missinterpret, missquote, question and bash what Bill says.

I have learned not a single thing from what you have posted here Tooner, how dare you criticize the most prolific and successfull piano-tuning teacher of PW? You don't have sufficient moral and intellectual authority to criticize him.

Jeff, don't you see that the balance goes against you?

Apart from Doel Kees and several amateurs and neophytes you have no followers here and Bill Bremmer has tons of them.

My take is that if you're a beginning tuner you'd do well and even pass the RPT exam following Bill and not think much about it.

Jeff is more interested in going beyond that and coming up with a coherent practice and theory to tune even very poorly scaled pianos. His ideas on this I find very useful.
More generally I enjoy reading Jeff's critiques of Bill's posts, as he generally brings up valid critiques. The personal bashings from both sides we just have to ignore; this is just part of being passionate about the issue from both sides.

I wish the two people I appreciate most on this forum could get along, but it is possible to get things done without getting along!

Kees

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#1720456 - 07/25/11 08:13 AM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: pppat]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4789
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: pppat
…..

Jeff,

I see no intended offense in Bill's writing. Maybe I'm still in the other side of a cultural barrier, but still - Bill advocates what he does, and leaves the door open. Why would that be wrong, in any way?


Here is an example: I ate corn flakes for breakfast. Mechanical pencils are far superior to wooden ones. The air conditioning in the car felt great. Those that do not use mechanical pencils are behind the times. I did not have to dodge any deer on the way to work. Using wooden pencils is a waste of resources.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1720481 - 07/25/11 09:27 AM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: Loren D]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3036
Loc: Madison, WI USA
I think some people take offense or read something into what I write when no criticism or offense was implied or intended. Yes, I have said that the Braide-White and other books written a hundred years ago are obsolete. So are any number of other books on other subjects. New information does come to light. Nearly anyone who does use those classic temperament sequences has to supplement what is written there with information gleaned from elsewhere.

A slow pull hammer technique likewise, is one way of manipulating a tuning hammer. It is what one might do naturally. If one ever tuned a guitar, one turned the pegs. If one ever tuned a harpsichord or forte piano, one had a key and turned the pins. One hundred years ago, pianos had pinblocks made of a few laminates of hard rock maple. Only large pianos were made then which had predictable scales.

Perhaps technicians back then would often take two hours to tune a piano and consider that to be the amount of time it should take. I can't imagine tuning a square grand in less time or ever getting one of those in tune to anywhere near the standards that are expected today. If one saw some of the pianos in the PTG museum, one would wonder how anyone ever coped with those. I doubt that any of them ever sounded as in tune as we can do with the knowledge and tools we have today.

Now we have pianos made with modern pinblocks which have a dozen or more laminates. When they are new, these pianos are very challenging to tune. It only makes sense to use a different technique on them.

Both Jack Stebbins and I have shown how the use of contiguous thirds serve to divide an octave into three equal parts regardless of irregular scaling and regardless of the placement of wound strings. Jim Coleman, Sr. also shows how to cope with these scale changes in his lectures and when he tutors. I have worked directly with and under him and shown many students what to do and how to do it. The results are always predictable and correct.

None of that was or ever is meant as a criticism of anyone who chooses to use other methods. It is a suggested strategy for those who have tried those methods and failed repeatedly. "If that method does not work for you, then try this and determine for yourself if it works better for you". There is no put down or offense implied to anyone with such suggestions. Anyone who wants to also has the right to find fault or criticism with impact hammer techniques or the use of contiguous thirds.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1720586 - 07/25/11 12:58 PM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4789
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
And you never miss an opportunity to bash Bill either do you?


And Jerry never misses an oppurtunity to bash Jeff when he bashes Bill for bashing 4ths and 5ths.....
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1720667 - 07/25/11 03:09 PM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: Loren D]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Put a lid on it Jeff. Stop looking for and creating trouble. Go into your own thread instead of highjacking this one.
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1720674 - 07/25/11 03:26 PM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
Rockin'88 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/09
Posts: 70
Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
Put a lid on it Jeff. Stop looking for and creating trouble. Go into your own thread instead of highjacking this one.


LOL!!!!
I love it when the grown-ups fight.
_________________________
PTG Associate Member

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#1720707 - 07/25/11 04:23 PM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: UnrightTooner]
wayne walker Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/08
Posts: 515
Loc: Windsor,Nova Scotia Canada
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
And you never miss an opportunity to bash Bill either do you?


And Jerry never misses an oppurtunity to bash Jeff when he bashes Bill for bashing 4ths and 5ths.....


Jeff, you just prove what I was thinking, you are an


Edited by Ken Knapp (07/26/11 01:56 AM)
Edit Reason: Offensive name calling removed. And nobody should be bashing anybody. Can't we act like adults kiddies? Love, the forum mommie.
_________________________
Wayne Walker
Walker's Piano Service
http://www.walkerpiano.ca/

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#1720731 - 07/25/11 04:49 PM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: UnrightTooner]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner


Here is an example: I ate corn flakes for breakfast. Mechanical pencils are far superior to wooden ones. The air conditioning in the car felt great. Those that do not use mechanical pencils are behind the times. I did not have to dodge any deer on the way to work. Using wooden pencils is a waste of resources.

smile well, I wouldn't personally take offense from any of the lines above. Possibly the "behind the times" might bug me, but then again, all are entitled to their opinion.

(Having a bad day, all of the above might get to me)


Edited by pppat (07/25/11 04:50 PM)
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#1720738 - 07/25/11 04:55 PM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: Loren D]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Oh, and by the way, anybody interested in talking about hammer technique, honoring the thread?

I think Bill's technique is outstanding. Have a problem with it personally, because I feel-I-have-to-feel the pin all the way through. If not, I get unsure.

Anybody?
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#1720783 - 07/25/11 05:58 PM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: Rockin'88]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4182
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: Rockin'88

I love it when the grown-ups fight.


When you find the grown-ups in this thread let us all know.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1720791 - 07/25/11 06:10 PM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: Loren D]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Dan: an easy remark to make. Pin-point any juvenile stuff instead, then we can have a constructive discussion.
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#1720800 - 07/25/11 06:21 PM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: pppat]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4182
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: pppat
.......... then we can have a constructive discussion.


If such a thing did exist here, there would be a lot more experienced techs on this board.

Quite frankly, I wouldn’t waste any of my valuable time.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1720812 - 07/25/11 06:49 PM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos
Originally Posted By: pppat
.......... then we can have a constructive discussion.


If such a thing did exist here, there would be a lot more experienced techs on this board.

Quite frankly, I wouldn’t waste any of my valuable time.


If so, you are wasting time right now, entering syllables here. Do not feel obliged in any way smile
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#1720864 - 07/25/11 08:27 PM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: Loren D]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Patrick,

I typically use the jerk method with my tuning hammer. That's the way I was taught. But, I also use the tap tap method similar to what Bill uses and it does work very well. It doesn't take much effort to get a string to move and to be in tune. The biggest effort is making sure the note is stable and set. Of course, it depends on the piano I'm tuning at the moment too. Some pianos just fall right into place very easily with no effort whereas others need a little bit of coaxing and others, a LOT of coaxing! My dad always said, let the piano know who's boss. Take control. When that happens, you are in control of what happens to the pin, string and the rest of the piano in tuning. Of course, some pianos are persistently pesky, but for the most part, when we take control of the tuning hammer, it is we, who are in control of that tuning pins destiny regardless of which method we use. Each of us must find a method that works best for us and that method may very well not be what I use. But, then again, it might... Trial and error works best. The more we fool around with the pin, going back and forth, back and forth, the less stable the pin and the string, becomes. The sooner we can get it in tune, the better all the way around. We are finished sooner, we make more money, the piano stays in tune longer and everyone is happier.

When raising pitch, I do not always go above first and then down and in tune. If the pin sets as it's going in tune, great, it's in tune and then I'm done.

Currently, I am considering purchasing a Cyber Tuning impact hammer. Loren uses one and boasts that it is wonderful. I tried Dean's at the convention. I was amazed at how easily it bumped the pin and string right in tune and with so little effort. I think in a few weeks, I will buy one.

There, that's my contribution. Did it help any? smile
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1720872 - 07/25/11 08:46 PM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: Loren D]
Steve W Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/18/07
Posts: 249
Loc: Omaha, NE
Jerry,
I for one found it helpful!

I seem to recall from the "4 techs" video that when Bill is doing his "tap tap" method, he just nudges the pin/string into tune without needing to go above pitch and finish with a counterclockwise movement. I am assuming that there is something about this technique which promotes pin setting, in addition to string setting?

If so, would seem to potentially save time during a tuning. A couple seconds saved at each string could add up.
_________________________
Steve W
Omaha, NE

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#1720877 - 07/25/11 08:54 PM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: Loren D]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Yes, it adds up very quickly indeed. If we saved 3 seconds on each string x 200 some strings adds up to quite a bit of saved time. Over 600 seconds. I think that is about 10 minutes +.

Using small incremental movements not GIANT movements when tuning unless you're raising pitch 1/2 tone, will lead you to an in tune piano quicker than jumping all over the place going past "in tune" 6 different times. Or, one quick, accurately placed movement, giant or not, will bring you close to being in tune after which you can tap tap tap the remainder of the way. Or, jerk, jerk, jerk.

We are of course, striking the string at the same time with the hammer because we strike the key each time we are moving the pin. Each movement requires another hit of the string to check it and to check the tuning. The key is to try and set the pin at the exact same moment you put the string in tune. With practice, it can be done.

_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1720883 - 07/25/11 09:01 PM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Jer,

I kind of thought that you would go for the impact hammer smile smile
Please let me know if it worked out for you.

By the way, I have passed on the rumor of this guy I know who can pitch raise in six minutes. They all go "Wow" and I feel proud smile
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#1720937 - 07/25/11 10:47 PM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: Loren D]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2545
Loc: PA
Ah, we're back on topic! smile Yes, all pianos are different, and all react differently to various techniques. There are ones where you can go right to it and it's there, and then there are others that, well....

Jerry, glad you're thinking about the Cyberhammer! You'll love it, I'm surel Its been a lifesaver for me; no more coming home with a sore shoulder and arm. I'm debating now on whether or not to get a grand Cyberhammer or a Fujan for grands, On one hand, $900, on the other hand, $400....
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1721108 - 07/26/11 08:29 AM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4789
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
Put a lid on it Jeff. Stop looking for and creating trouble. Go into your own thread instead of highjacking this one.


Jerry:

You don't get it. Bill was hijacking this hammer technique thread into a temperament sequence thread. THAT is what triggered my objection.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1721131 - 07/26/11 09:29 AM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: UnrightTooner]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3036
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
Put a lid on it Jeff. Stop looking for and creating trouble. Go into your own thread instead of highjacking this one.


Jerry:

You don't get it. Bill was hijacking this hammer technique thread into a temperament sequence thread. THAT is what triggered my objection.


Jeff,

I can see how you perceived that but really the two topics are inter-related. Hammer technique is used to tune a temperament as well as the rest of the piano, is it not? I related how I helped a struggling exam hopeful who had spent an hour trying to tune a temperament but failed. I had worked with him over several years. He could not tune a successful temperament without changing his strategy. The night before the exam, changing his hammer technique strategy proved to be the key to his success.

I am not deliberately "bashing" cycle of 5ths ET sequences. I have only tried to point out and demonstrate why for some people (certainly not all), such approaches have not worked. I could use one just as successfully as you or the many people who use them do.

However, after many years (now 20) of serving as an examiner and witnessing rather consistent trends among those who pass and those who fail, I believe I know and thoroughly understand what the problems are and have sought solutions to them. Apparently, those efforts have been successful.

Those efforts and the reporting of them, both in hammer technique and temperament sequence are not intended to demean, mock or ridicule you or anyone else who uses traditional/classic methods in any way. I have said this repeatedly, yet the mere mention of a modern strategy is called "bashing".

You or anyone else is invited to start an in depth thread on classic/traditional methods, what it takes to use them and perfect them. Let technicians try both sides of the issue and decide for themselves which works best for them.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1721132 - 07/26/11 09:32 AM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4789
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
.....

I reiterate: What I learned in 1979 to be the "most mechanically correct" method proved to be true for me. Anyone is invited to demonstrate and/or prove that any other methods are superior.


Yes, back to the subject.

Bill: How was it explained to you why this is the "most mechanically correct" method? I am not so much interested in why YOU think so as why those that taught you thought so.

[Edit:] Didn't mean to crosspost, Bill.


Edited by UnrightTooner (07/26/11 09:34 AM)
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1721142 - 07/26/11 09:52 AM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: Loren D]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4789
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Bill:

I stand by original comment about you bashing 4ths and 5ths tuning and tuners and changing the subject:

Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
.....

I know why the traditional sequence does not work for many people and have explained why it does not work many times. It may well be true that some technicians successfully tune a piano using a traditional sequence and a slow pull hammer technique. Inevitably, however, these are the people who take far longer to tune a piano than those who use a much more efficient and mechanically correct technique. The temperament sequence is analogous. Compounded and cumulative errors are inevitable with that method and they take much more time and skill to sort out and correct than a sequence that leads one far closer to perfection on the first attempt at tuning each string.

.....

The highlighted sentences show that you do not consider 4ths and 5ths tuning or a slow pull hammer technique to be viable alternatives at all. Piggybacking one on top of another is doubly insulting. You only give lip service to the idea that other methods have their place. Doing so makes it worse yet. I do not believe you are sincere in saying:

Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
.....

I am not deliberately "bashing" cycle of 5ths ET sequences. I have only tried to point out and demonstrate why for some people (certainly not all), such approaches have not worked.

.....

But this does not mean we cannot still discuss the subject. smile
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1721145 - 07/26/11 09:59 AM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: Loren D]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2545
Loc: PA
I give up on this thread. Jeff keeps bringing up 4ths and 5ths. This could have been a good thread about Bill's hammer technique.
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DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1721153 - 07/26/11 10:14 AM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: Loren D]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4789
Loc: Bradford County, PA
I criticize someone else for bringing up 4ths and 5ths and then get blamed as if I was the one that brought it up! Well, I can’t take that sort of thing seriously either.

HaHaHaHaHaHa!
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1721167 - 07/26/11 10:45 AM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: Loren D]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2545
Loc: PA
Whatever, Jeff. The fact remains that we were doing fine until you started with your personal slam against Bill. Why don't you just start a Personal Slam Against Bill thread and leave us to discuss his hammer technique?
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1721176 - 07/26/11 10:57 AM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: UnrightTooner]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2545
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
I criticize someone else for bringing up 4ths and 5ths and then get blamed as if I was the one that brought it up! Well, I can’t take that sort of thing seriously either.

HaHaHaHaHaHa!


That's my point. You showed up to criticize.
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1721177 - 07/26/11 11:00 AM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: Loren D]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2545
Loc: PA
Ok. Stop feeding the trolls and back on topic..
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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