I think this just came out. Anybody had a chance to try it??

I'm interested in the usual 3 questions- (1) How is the action. (2) How is the piano sound. (3) How does it compare to the usual lot- FP4, RD300GX, P150, CP33 etc.

It's only 76-key and semi-weighted but that's ok for me, as long as the action is very responsive it doesn't have to be that heavy. I'm surprised they didn't increase the polyphony from 64 yet, but then again, they're the only one in this price range that has 4 zones (instead of single layer/split).

I can only find it at Sweetwater online. Guitar Center don't have it. In fact I haven't seen any Kurzweil's near me period. They don't have much of a dealer presence here but I heard in the past they made some pretty amazing piano stuff. I'd really like to verify that. If you've tried it- please review. Thx!

In the past Ray Kurzweil himself was the lead engineer at Kurzweil and personally desinged the K250. Everything Ray Kurzweil has built was always a decade or so ahead of then current technology. But Ray always seems to invent something, build a company around it then sell the company and start over. He has not worked at Kurzweil in ages. I think he moved on to computer voice recognition after leaving the piano company. Before digital pianos it was book readers for blind people.

Chris is right. KMS is a shell of it's former self. After the debacle that's been the last 10 years of ownership of the kurzweil name and the spotty record of support and product delivery through this period, it's no wonder few dealers will touch them.

KZ

I apologise for my overuse of technical terminology now (being a former Kurzweil owner)...


Kurzweils are rubbish.


Same old, same old, same old piano voice. Just an excruciating noise. Dreadful quality control. AVOID. If you own a Kurzweil and like it there is treatment available...

Cheers,

Steve

Well Good, now I don't feel like I am missing out on anything special. Without being able to try these things personally sometimes you build them up in your head "...Well this one could be really great, the one you've always been looking for".

Guess I will move the FP-4 back to the top of my list. (Btw- my list has been changing over the past 6 months- MP5->P155->CP33->FP4. (One day I will pull the trigger. I promise.)

I own a K2600X which I sold a Yamaha S90 in order to buy. Though there are some things that I miss about the S90, you're not gonna catch me selling the Kurzweil to buy it back. The S90's pianos were better, and the action was excellent, but Kurzweil's orchestral suite runs circles around that of the Yamaha. Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge Yamaha fan, but I remember having to layer/split/velocity edit like four string and horn voices (while eating up nearly all the polyphony) just to get a good, responsive orchestral patch that was only almost as good as the presets that my Kurz has by default (Dynamic Orchestra if anyone's interested). Yamaha's string and brass sections seemed so flat and uninspiring.

I think that your opinion of Kurzweil will vary depending on your use of the instrument. If you play in pit orchestras and often cover string and brass ensembles like I do, the Kurzweil is excellent. If you want a good digital piano, get a Roland, Yamaha or Kawai. If you're a tweeker, get a Korg or a Moog or something.

My favorite thing about my Kurzweil is how the programs (or patches, voices, whatever you call them) are made up of about 10 different sounds, which can be added to, deleted or otherwise edited in the Edit menu, which gives many of the orchestral programs a very dynamic sound. Some of my favorites are Dynamic Orchestra, Touch Orchestra, Huge Brass and Horn & Flute With Strings. Very touch responsive - play Horn & Flute W/Strings lightly and you get a breathy string ensemble. Play in mezzo and you get a good, all-around string sound. Play a little heavier and you get a brassy sound coming through. I couldn't do that on the Yamaha, but then again the Yamaha had some piano voices that blew the Kurz out of the water --- but obviously piano isn't in my primary use model, otherwise I would have stuck with the Yammy.

Kurzweils aren't rubbish, they just aren't for everybody. The thing with Kurzweil is you either love or hate 'em. There's really no middle ground, and unfortunately, few people have actually used one to their fullest potential, if at all.
Quality control isn't something I've had any negative experience with, but this is my first Kurzweil. All I know is that mine was manufactured in '99 and is still going strong. >knock on wood I guess<.

The SP4-7 is new enough that not many will have tried it. However, the electronics is based on the new (past couple of years) Kurzweil chipset, and the sounds are based on a subset of thone on my Kurzweil PC3X, which I have owned since March, 2008; and play daily.

Some people like the piano patches in Kurbzweils, I am among that group. Others don't like them. As far as service is concerned, the service did almost disappear a few years ago. Short version - Kurzweil was the victim of a forced takeover by another Korean company, who sold off most of the parts stock, fired almost all the R&D people (one person left), and attempted to destroy the company. It took several years for the Korean courts to sort through, but that was done in 2007. Kurzweil is now a division of the Korean mega-corporation Hyundai.

Base samples are still those from the old Kurzweil, although new samples are in the process of being developed (their process takes over two years). I personally have owned seven different Kurzweil keyboards, only sold one (to replace with a later model), and am well pleased with the company. They are legend in the theatrical industry for their ability to build machines that work well in orchestra pits to synthesize orchestral parts.

Cut to chase moment: TRY EACH BRAND YOURSELF - you are the only person who can determine what sound you like to your own ears.

Good point about keeping an open mind. How do you like the action for piano stuff, say, compared to a Roland?

I like the action of my PC2x and my PC3x (my two 88 key boards) better than any of the Yamahas that I have played, including a CP300. I live in a small town, and there are no Roland dealers (besides, in my former work as an electronic technician, I had problems getting parts through Roland, and would not likely buy for that reason - which I stress is only a personal thing).

I played the church Kurzweil SP2X yesterday in a recital, the action is 88 key weighted, but does not take nearly as much force to operate as either of my two - this is not necessarily a fault, but I personally prefer the somewhat stiffer action.

Again, I stress that time would not be wasted at all in trying to play some typical material on EVERY contender. It is not just the sound, I have EWQL's Gold Pianos on a fast computer, and can use it with my Kurzweils (I don't bother with this except in studio work), it is the overall mechanicals. What you will prefer tends to be affected substantially by what you have become used to. If I had the budget to purchase, I would probably be interested in the Yamaha Avant Grande, which has an action that controls electronics, but is built very similar to a grand piano action. The different price points in each company's line also affect just how good an action they can install in a particular model.

Yes, definitely keep an open mind... don't rule something out based on the opinions of a couple of people, especially when none of them have actually played it. (Almost no one has played one yet, outside of a trade show, because at least in the U.S., they haven't started shipping yet, it's supposed to ship at the end of the month.)

I'm not saying people who haven't played one have no valid input... the piano sound is going to be the same as the piano sound in the other Kurzweil models, so that is a known quantity. But even there, some people really like the Kurzweil piano sound, others don't, and that's something you have to decide for yourself. As for service issues, my limited experience with them for service was better than my experience with Roland. But really, I rarely need to deal with service departments for any of this stuff.

Your question about the action is what I'm most interested in myself, and this is an area where it seems like basically no one knows, since the SP4 apparently uses a different action from any of the existing models, so we'll just have to wait and see. If the action is good, I think the combination of sounds, features, weight, and price will make it a strong contender.

EDIT: nice quick overview at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FY1qwZpQ7c

I have two related question:

- I've heard from numerous sources that the Kurzweil piano sound really shines in the context of a band as it punches through in the mix, where other, much more sophisticated piano voices go under. So it seems to be made for band rather than solo play. Can you second that?

- I've also heard that Kurzweil uses Fatar keyboards for their instruments. Is that true? Does somebody know which keyboard model is built in which stage piano?

They do use Fatar actions...don't know exactly which one(s) and Fatar do make a number of different actions.

If you want something to cut through an electric band Yamaha is probably the best place to look, at least initially. I'm not the biggest Yamaha fan because I tend to like a slightly darker sound but their sound signature is infinitely better than Kurzweil and whilst bright has a pleasing balance to it. Kurzweils have a cluster of notes in the midrange that are too prominent and much too distinctive...and in this regard they have always been the same, even in the days before stereo sampling, there was always this hideous sound in the mid-range. From the source piano I guess...which I would urge them to change! I've had a couple of Kurzweils and I shudder at the memory of the bloody things. Horrible piano sounds and very poor key actions. In fact, both had action problems (sticking under-key weights) and one went into total brain melt-down and was pronounced unfixable.

I know they have their devoted fans and I do respect the opinion of others. My experience was blighted by reliability issues but I would strongly encourage potential buyers to consider EVERYTHING else before investigating Kurzweil.

Cheers,

Steve

It seems that some people have good luck with Kurzweils and some do not. I personally own three Kurzweil keyboards and none have had issues, other than one (the SP88x) which received some shipping damage. I'm not terribly crazy about the piano sound on most, but I bought the Kurzweils for their orchestral sounds, which outshine the rest, IMO. Of all the actions (all three are slightly different), I like the feel of the K2500XS the most.

Ok, I agree they have an impressive range of other sounds, especially orchestral...I'm happy to give you that! I had a Kurz piano (Mk 12 I think it was) and it had very few dud sounds (unfortunately the grand piano was one!)...that thing was a world of discovery...until it went haywire and the shop took it back and chopped it up (yes, they took an axe to it after several failed attempts to fix it).

Steve

So that's the notorious Fatar keyboard--- now I see what the fuss is about. My brother has a Kurtzweil, probably not their top-of-the-line since he's a horn player and got it for his kids. But, it's one of the worst DPs I've ever touched. No doubt it's a few years old now, maybe 6, 7, 8, but I have played Casio kids' toys that had a better action.

I hope they have gotten their feet under them again. I guess we'll find out with the new release.

Fatar has made many different keyboard mechanisms, some much better than others, I wouldn't generalize about the whole brand. But yes, Kurzweil uses Fatar keybeds. As does Nord. Studiologic controllers are also Fatar. From what I've read, some Korgs use Fatar (and some use Yamaha, and some use their own).

The Nord keyboard is manufactured by Fatar but modified according to Nord's specification. I don't think Korg use Yamaha keyboards...they certainly once did but I don't think they do now. Every Korg piano I've seen lately has had uneven gaps between keys - not random gaps, there would appear to be some sort of pattern to the odd gaps - but no Yamaha I've ever seen has ever had any visual defect or idiosyncrasy with the keys like this.

I think there was mention that Casio were using Fatar actions (not sure if this is still the case)...but then they are criticised for being clicky and loose and, after lots of use, keys start to hit adjacent keys on the worst affected instruments.

The general feedback about Fatar seems negative but there are many different actions as you say so perhaps the bad rep is not always deserved.

Steve

At least in the current Privia line, the keybeds are made by Casio, not Fatar, according to a message Casio's Mike Martin posted on another forum. I don't know whether or not it has always been the case.

The SP4-7 is now available. Anybody tried or bought it?

sounds like a good light weight board for gigging musicians who just need a simple collection of common live sounds.

I would like to know how the semi-weighted keys feels like, especially when playing piano.

Someone on the Keyboard magazine forum has just got one and offers his opinion here.

Thanks Aidan. Very useful!

PC3X, PC3K and many other boards from Kurzweil (ProX-UP, ProX-MG,...) use Fatar TP40L (L = lightweight). It is not graded , but does have aftertouch , which most other manufacturers seem to have deemed unnecessary.

The TP40L appears to be a more reliable keybed than what was previously in the PC2, K2500/2600, PC88 series. So everything that counts for the older range of models in terms of keybed quality is not by definition valid for the current range. Still you have to play it, to see if you like the touch of the TP40L. It's not heavy weighted on purpose, because you want to be able to play more than only piano sounds on the board (Organ, Strings, Synth, etc).

As far as the sound is concerned. Yep...always the same material since the last 20 years of Kurzweil (well roughly ;-)

It's dusty , but in many cases very much up to the job for live gigs, orchestral work and others. Don't expect the ultimate grand though !

Hi,

I own & use a Kurzweil SP4-7 as my piano sounds as well as a midi controller for my external synth modules. After a brief aquainting period, I have come to enjoy the semi-weighted action of the keys that's slightly 'stiffer' than other 76 semi-weighted keyboards of it's class. This keyboard really needs to be hooked up in stereo to fully enjoy it's sound quality. With other keyboards that I own, I could have 2,500 sounds and use about 4 of them, the SP4-7 has those basic Piano, Elec.Piano,Clavinet,String,Brass,Synth,Synth Lead, Perc. Etc. that I use on a regular basis. It's like a "swiss army knife" of common sounds. I compare the SP4-7 with a Korg Stage Vintage 73 or Nord Electro. I use a Roland VK-8 Module through a Leslie(controlled by the SP4-7) for organ sounds and a Roland XV-2020 module for bells and whistles. I like my SP4-7

My SP4-7 arrives Friday, so I'll be very interested to see how well the action works. I had a PC3 for a few weeks, and the action on that wasn't bad for a semi-weighted. But, I figured it would take me the rest of my life to work out how to program the darn thing, so I sold it and will use the SP4-7 with its basic preset sounds as a cheaper alternative. Now, with OS2 and the ability to load other PC3-series sounds, I think it'll be just as useful, but a lot lighter and easier to operate.

On the whole, I find the Kurzweil sounds to be very good (with outstanding reproduction), but lacking enough layers and sophistication to rival, say Korg's new EPs or the best of the APs from Roland/Korg/Yamaha/Nord/Kawai. However, when you add in the synths, KB3 organs, strings and so on, it's a pretty good all-round package. I also found that I LIKED the sounds, even if they're not quite up there with the best, technically.

Since people are talking about the SP4-7 I think I can say something about the SP4-8 on this thread ... I bought a Kurzweil
SP4-8 to use as a MIDI Controller with a Muse Receptor box running Ivory 2 ... I have yet to receive the Receptor box but
the SP4-8 came today ...

I was a bit shocked -- although I loved the feel of the action on the SP4-8 when used as a MIDI Controller (the Piano velocity curve they have worked well) I had all kinds of problems within 10 minutes of using it :

1) there was a fairly significant ground hum when I plugged the audio outs into a high quality speaker so I could use the internal sounds ...

2) there was a situation where one of the notes from one of the internal sounds was permanently on with no key depressed ...

3) at one point the SP4-8 stopped transmitting MIDI data to the MIDI out port even though I had the Global MIDI parameter set to Local+MIDI (which means MIDI data will be sent to MIDI out and you can use internal sounds as well) ...

4) then when I booted it up the polarity on the sustaining pedal was reversed (they say this can happen if you have your foot on the pedal during the bootup but I didn't !)

5) When I did what the manual said to do to check the Operating System level it did not show up

I have to admit I was a bit surprised that the SP4-8 was so flaky -- they solved all of the technological problems it was supposed to cover back in the mid-90s ... I have had a Kurzweil K2500 for 13 years and it has amazing (and stable) functionality ... I have to agree with what someone said in an earlier post -- it is no longer a leading edge company and the quality control appears to have gone way down ... when I researched them a little bit I saw that they almost went out of business in 2004 and my gut is they have never recovered ...

oh well ...

I did want to warn people about my experience with SP4-8 as it sounds great on paper ...

Hey dbelmont2, thanks for the warning - and sorry to hear about all those problems with your SP4-8. I hope you manage to get them sorted. Your story doesn't exactly fill me with confidence about the SP4-7 I have on order!

Still, on a positive note, the PC3 I had for a short while seemed very well put together and operated very stably.

Thanks -- it is quite possible that given how new the SP4-8 (it came out about a month ago) that initial users like myself wind up being part of quality control for Kurzweil ...

I know the SP4-7 has been out longer (though I am not sure how much longer) ...

From what I've heard, there were issues with the SP4-7 when it first came out (sticky action etc.) that had to be weeded out. It hit the streets around the end of 2010. The board I have on order (delayed, it seems) is B-stock - which may be a good thing if it's been refurbished and checked, or a bad thing if it's one of the problem stock. We'll see.

Voxpops -- I know this an expensive route but how do you think the Nord NP88 would to as a MIDI Controller for use with Ivory 2 ?
Have you done much MIDI with the NP88 ?

Thanks ...

Very sorry to hear about that dbelmont! On the studio I helped build, they had a PC2X which I found a fantastic instrument at the time (I still do!). This same people recently bought a SP3X which, the day it came, had some clicks and pops on the main outputs, but I think that problem got solved, not sure exactly how, I didn't follow the subject closely.

Recently, when shopping out for my own DP I headed directly to the local Kurzweil distributor and there was something missing... as you and others put it, it just seemed that they were "no longer a leading edge company".

Hope they sort things out as they had some fantastic things going for them waaaayyy back up until not very long ago. I also hope you get your problems fixed and you can enjoy your new DP for a long time,

Rafa.