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#1722844 - 07/29/11 05:50 AM Tone Wheel (Drawbar) Registrations (Database / Combinations)
RafaPolit Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 263
Loc: Quito, Ecuador
Friends,

Once more, I have this site to thank for introducing me to new aspects of my own DP that I was unaware of! Yesterday MoePiano asked about Classical/Church organs and liked to a fantastic (to me at least) Roland C200 model, of which there are some really interesting videos on YouTube.

As I was watching the C-200 being played by Hector Olivera, I thought to myself: why is it that none of those sounds made it into my FP-7F and why did they delved so much on the Tone Wheel Organ!!! (Needless to say, I had actually no idea what the Tone Wheel Organ was or how to use it smile )

Having had the whole afternoon of leisure, I decided to look into what exactly is a Tone Wheel Organ to find that the versatility through the possible Registrations (in the Tone Wheel lexicon, and not the Roland's one) is almost limitless.

Of course there are some limitations of the FP-7F as the Rotary Speed and other issues, but the basic tones of the original Pipe Church Organs, having now found some 'equivalencies' are more or less able to be reproduced.

Also, I found an interesting description of how to mathematically combine those Registrations to produce the effects of combining Organ Stops.

I'm not sure if there is much interest here about those, but I'd like to share those sites for those interested:

Links:
- Drawbar Settings and Organ equivalents
- The Science of Hammond Organ Drawbar Registration

Also, as I am a bit of a geek (but I'm confident I'm not alone in that respect here on PW smile ), I made an Excel file with a database of all the Registrations available over at Keyboardservice and I reproduced the Combination Calculator on the stefanv site in order to both quickly access the Registrations, combine them and, most importantly, send the setting to my FP-7F to quickly change the settings.

Here's what I did:




So, one can either select from the drop down (by name) the sound and the file will automatically display the correct drawbar settings (the percussion needs to be entered by hand at this point) and it will yield the SysEX data for the FP-7F, but people could adjust it for their own needs.

I'm not sure if there is any interest for me to actually host the file, but if someone is interested, drop me a line here.

I think I'm more happy about the Organ sounds of the FP-7F now that I understand what they are smile

Best regards,
Rafa.


Edited by RafaPolit (07/30/11 01:20 AM)
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#1723153 - 07/29/11 04:36 PM Re: Tone Wheel Registrations (Database and Combinations) [Re: RafaPolit]
John_In_Montreal Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/21/11
Posts: 399
Loc: Montreal Canada
Hi RafaPolit,

Wow, that's a kewl link for the drawbar settings. I had found this one (click here) a while ago and thought I had found them all; (Google didn't report much).

If you continue with your Excel database, I'm interested smile

I have more than a passing interest in the "Hammond sound", I hope to be somewhat proficient at playing the organ within a few years. Up to now, my only reference was the 1953 or 1955 book " Dictionary of Hammond-organ stops : an introduction to playing the Hammond electric organ and a translation of pipe-organ stops into Hammond-organ number-arrangements" by Irwin, Stevens. I've also been trying at times to pierce the secrets behind Rick Wright's drawbar settings for some Pink Floyd songs smile

Thanks for posting this!

John
_________________________
"My piano is therapy for me" - Rick Wright.
Instrument: Rebuilt Kurzweil K2500XS and a bunch of great vintage virtual keyboards. New Kurzweil PC3X.

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#1723518 - 07/30/11 12:57 PM Re: Tone Wheel Registrations (Database and Combinations) [Re: RafaPolit]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4323
Loc: Northern NJ
Raffa, thanks for all your hard work on this, it's really great!

I think you should definitely host the file somewhere, I'd certainly give it a look.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1723893 - 07/31/11 03:49 AM Re: Tone Wheel (Drawbar) Registrations (Database / Combinations) [Re: RafaPolit]
RafaPolit Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 263
Loc: Quito, Ecuador
Friends, nice to know there are similar interests here!

Mine was driven mostly for the love of Baroque music. I found that the 'organ' section of the FP-7F was completely lacking any good 'church organ' that could be played, mostly due to the Tone Wheel Organ presets being more biased towards Jazz~Gospel. Little did I know that, by changing registrations you can actually make a Tone Wheel (Hammond) Organ sound like a Church Organ!

Its really nice to know it can. I have found that layering it with a slight touch of one of the 'flute sounding' organs, you can get that pipe blowing effect on the attack and preserve the fantastic variant tone of the Hammond 'harmonics' approach. For 'on the go', one of the GM sounds will do, when hooked to a computer, its nice to double it with another sound of the same Organ group... that is only accomplished by inputting the midi CH1 and then outputting to two separate channels, but most DAWs could do that and in real time, so I found that is a nice option as well.

What I have come to absolutely LOVE!! is that, with both links above (now combined on the excel file I'm linking at the bottom), one can, on one hand reproduce the single Stops of most Organs (with correct naming!!! instead of hard to read numbers), and, on the other hand, combine them.

So, for instance, a knowledgeable guy says that to play a Toccata and Fugue he would recommend:
Bourdon or Principal 16' (if you have one)
Principals 8, 4, 2 2/3, 2, Mixture (possibly 2 Mixtures)
Gedackt 8' (maybe--if the 8' Principal does not have enough fundamental by itself)

This, two days ago, meant nothing to me! Now, thanks to the guys at Keyboardservice.com I can actually select Bourdon, Principal 8, Principal 4, Principal 2, Quint 1 1/3 and Gedeckt 8 as individual registers. And, thanks to the incredible math algorithm in stefanv.com (which is fairly obvious and yet very powerful after he explains it smile ), I can combine them and VOILA! I have a perfectly nice Church Organ sounding on my FP-7F!!

Can you tell I'm excited? I really think that the only problem is changing registers quickly, but saving them in sequence into the DPs registrations can be useful for changing tones for a given work.

So, about the file:
Code:
- First and foremost, please don't distribute it yourselves,
  if someone else would find it interesting, please point
  them here and hopefully they'll comment as well.  Also
  always please give credit where credit is due, as I have
  with both sites I used for compiling the info and math.
- The file is 'as is' so, please, suggest any changes you may
  think interesting.
- The file is Excel 2007
- Combinations. The first sheet is called Combinations.
  From it you can:
    - Recall all the pre-loaded tones in column B.  
      If you load only one tone (by deleting all other names in column B) you will get
      that tone's value and the Roland FP-7F SysEX for that sound (others need to
      adjust for their own use, of course)
    - By selecting several tones, combine their 'sound tone' in an additive manner
      (the results are truly fantastic!)
    - You may, at any time, override the loaded value by entering one manually in
      column E.  To enter a value, start with an apostrophe, and follow it by
      nine consecutive (no spaces) number.  Like so '546757363.  The (') will prevent
      excel from automatically suppressing leading zeros.  Entered value takes precedence
      over database loaded value.
    - For those interested in 'opening the hood', there are several hidden rows an 
      columns that need to be unhidden for understanding.
- Standard Registrations. The second sheet contains all the Registrations.
    - This contains a list of all the registrations found in Keyboardservice.com, with 
      percussion settings as well.
- Favorites.  A place to store your favorite settings.
- There are two hidden sheets I use to create the Combinations sheet.  Its not very
  elegant as is, but its quick and dirty... if you want to create a more versatile
  and changing-over-time programming, please, share back your progress, I'd be very
  interested.


File:
Drawbar Settings.xlsx

That's about it. Please let me know what you think, best regards,
Rafa.


Edited by RafaPolit (07/31/11 03:56 AM)
_________________________
Roland FP-7F

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#1724469 - 08/01/11 11:14 AM Re: Tone Wheel (Drawbar) Registrations (Database / Combinations) [Re: RafaPolit]
John_In_Montreal Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/21/11
Posts: 399
Loc: Montreal Canada
I've downloaded the file but not looked at it yet. Thanks for making that, i'll experiment later on smile

John
_________________________
"My piano is therapy for me" - Rick Wright.
Instrument: Rebuilt Kurzweil K2500XS and a bunch of great vintage virtual keyboards. New Kurzweil PC3X.

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#1736609 - 08/19/11 02:40 PM Re: Tone Wheel (Drawbar) Registrations (Database / Combinations) [Re: RafaPolit]
FliPiano Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/19/11
Posts: 1
Loc: Norway
Hi RafaPolit
Thank you for the work you have done with the excel drawbar settings.

and hi all at the Pianoworld smile
I am a beginner, now learning to play piano, have played a little bit organ earlier, but nothing that I can use to show of smile
I bought the Roland FP7-F after reading posts, experience, reviews here at Pianoworld.
My goal is just to learn to play piano for myself, and have some good fun at it.


Some question regarding sending the Drawbar values as Sysex to the FP7-F
Which tool/software do you use to send the Sysex?
I have tried SysEx librarian (on Mac) and Midi-OX (on Windows), but I do not get the SysEx correctly transmitted.
I hear that the sound changes, and some "noise" at "note off", maybe percusion?
The sound is not what should be expected with the drawbar settings I choose.
It seems that I am not sending the SysEx correctly.

Do I have to set up the FP7F to get the SysEx correctly?
It is now "factory reset"

Would love to be able to send the drawbar settings from the computer, and not have to go through the menus.
I am also considering trying to expand the excel sheet, try to add some code/script so the SysEx can be sent directly from excel.



Please have in mind that I am a beginner at the Piano and on Music/Midi-software.
I have a good experience/knowledge on computers, software and some programming.

Best regards
Bjorn

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