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#1721582 - 07/27/11 12:26 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Beeboss, such a lovely touch. I'm so envious...
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#1721670 - 07/27/11 07:43 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1332
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Well that's the point. It's so much work but no one's paying attention. So it's emotionally draining. At least I got to practice 'Very Early' in public.
Btw: there's lyrics to Very Early in the Bill Evans book. It's not a bad tune for vocalists.
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#1721750 - 07/27/11 11:49 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Jazz+ Offline
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Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 838
Loc: Banned
Excellent Beebee, I bookmarked your Blackberry Winter for further listening.
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#1721757 - 07/27/11 12:02 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1194
Loc: uk south
Thanks Jazz+, glad you liked it
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#1721777 - 07/27/11 12:44 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jjo Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 625
Loc: Chicago
Beeboss: I'm an Alec Wilder fan, and Blackberry Winter is one of his best. Your rendition was excellent.

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#1722235 - 07/28/11 05:21 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1194
Loc: uk south
Thanks jjo
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#1722590 - 07/28/11 06:58 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
I had my teacher listen to some our gig tunes and he said my problem on the swing tunes was that the drummer was not setting the proper swing groove and it was affecting everyone.

He said the drummer should accent more 2/4 when we do swing tunes.

Thoughts?

I'm uncomfortable trying to explain to the drummer that his doing too much anticipation of the 8ths instead of just the standard ding-a-ding.

I'm not a drummer and the last time I made a comment like that to a drummer at the jam session, he just blew up and ignored me. I pay my current drummer so I suppose this is not the same as a jam session.
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#1722606 - 07/28/11 07:30 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1194
Loc: uk south
My view is that generally you get the best out of musicians when you don't tell them what to play. If you don't like his playing then get another drummer. But be careful as nobody likes being sacked.
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#1722611 - 07/28/11 07:39 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2991
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
I would follow Dave's advice and do a trio. Then you've removed all the other factors that make it easy not to swing.

Not to bring my own stories but a couple of weeks ago, we played a large hotel lobby. I was simply hired for this and did not pick the band. But worst, the organizer invited folks to play. Including, of all musicians out there, a theramin player! Wait, not one, 2 theramin players.
Humbly, they chose "not to play" because "they were not really jazz instruments". My a$$ they didn't play. The whole time they had their evil machines on low volume. The constant buzzing and confusing harmony made it impossible to get a groove. Add to that, the shape of that room was such that it was difficult for the drummer to hear me or the bass (no monitors). It was fun, and we have a really cool crowd, but honestly, we did not play good.

The point: All participants in a band affect the swing.

If bass+ drums can't practice by themselves, then the 3 of you should meet.
If it still doesn't work, move people around.
I don't know how it is in your neck of the woods, but over here, if you pay, you quickly get really really good musicians.
I mean you would be surprised how much one of McBride's drummers might cost... Perhaps your teacher can recommend a good combo.
For the same price as the all those guys, you might be able to afford his 2 guys ...

And then, guaranteed, you're gonna swing like heck.
Just think how good you sound when you play along to some Horace Silver or Wynton Kelly. It's all about that rhythm section.

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#1722615 - 07/28/11 07:44 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2991
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
>> If you don't like his playing then get another drummer. But be careful as nobody likes being sacked.
+1 on both statements. You can't afford the bad reputation. It's a lot of people out there, you don't have to play with those you don't like. I would not try to tell someone how to play their own instruments.

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#1722618 - 07/28/11 07:49 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
KlinkKlonk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/19/09
Posts: 357


Edited by KlinkKlonk (07/28/11 07:53 PM)

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#1722620 - 07/28/11 07:54 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
Dave Ferris Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 1728
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
Originally Posted By: beeboss


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Siqh2s2TY0s

Blackberry Winter by Alec Wilder, with a groove section towards the end


One of my favorite tunes that as been on my *to learn* list for the longest time. I've often played it behind vocalists but never really worked on it.

Really enjoyed it David ! You brought out some really nice inner voicings on the tune and as usual, you have that refined lyrical, singing touch which is so important for a tune like this. And then the vamp at the end was cool.

Bravo !!
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#1722623 - 07/28/11 08:08 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: KlinkKlonk]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: KlinkKlonk


LOL - we're keyboardists. We can play the drums and bass too without an external device. Haha!

Anyway, back to the more serious issue, I might just make a nice 'request' for a more regular cymbal ride pattern for longer periods. The drummer is a really nice guy and overall he plays really well. So I don't really want to fire him.

But some of you already made a comment about some of our swing tunes and there's a groove issue. It's not always a problem but seems to occur more at the mid tempos. Uptempo, there's less of a groove issue.

I thought the problem was with me (I always accept the blame first) but my teacher said that even he couldn't swing if the groove doesn't allow it.

Did any of you notice the groove issue in the rhythm section? It was more noticeable on this tune (ATTYA) where I couldn't really develop a good swing feel. The drummer was doing an anticipated 8th pattern right from the beginning.

ATTYA
http://www.box.net/shared/qgat0qmhkirsr9oeydnm
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#1722680 - 07/28/11 10:00 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
cubop Offline

Silver Supporter until Dec 28 2012


Registered: 12/17/10
Posts: 368
Loc: Norway
jazzwee, I have listened carefully to the ATTYA track, and it is difficult to hear what the drummer is doing, but it seems you are right about his playing. But since you say that he is a nice guy and usually plays reasonable well, it might be possible to give him some hints. I did some gigging with a bass player a long time ago, and he told me that I did not swing. I did not like that of course, and I had done some gigs with a trumpet player who was way ahead of both of us, and he was very happy about my ability to swing. So I told him that, and he answered: that was before you started doing all those complicated things. I thought it was very helpful, and did my best to correct that.
But I think your worst problem is the trumpet player. People who play like that should not do gigs at all.
So my advice would be to keep the drummer and see how things work out, and send the trumpet player back to some serious listening and woodshedding.

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#1722769 - 07/29/11 12:34 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
cubop, being a drummer, your comment is particularly important. I think it's subtle. He just has to maintain the jazz ride-pattern for a longer period instead of breaking it up so often with anticipation accents. Sometimes he does it right so it may be an unconscious thing.

Frankly, I didn't know what to listen for before. I just have difficulty swinging with some drummers and I don't know what's happening. It's not part of our jazz education. You just assume everyone knows their instruments.

A previous drummer at a jam was too heavy on 1 and 4 and too much of a bass drum pattern that was getting in the way of the groove. Everyone hated his playing. But very few had the guts to speak up. It was bad because he was the house drummer of the jam session. Finally, the jam organizer just put his foot down and replaced him. I think he got pretty mad but everyone else was happier.

I like this drummer though. He's reliable, listens well and works well with the bass player. So maybe just a little subtle "ideas" might work out.

p.s. -- about the trumpet player and guitar player, both of which are obviously at a lower level than the rest of the group, I'm giving newer musicians a chance to play. I would have appreciated that of someone if I were given that kind of chance. I do get some grumbling from the core group but as long as they don't destroy the group, I can handle a mediocre solo. The guitar player always plays out of time though so he's out. That's more than I can handle.
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#1722834 - 07/29/11 04:47 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Dave Ferris]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1194
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris
Originally Posted By: beeboss


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Siqh2s2TY0s

Blackberry Winter by Alec Wilder, with a groove section towards the end


One of my favorite tunes that as been on my *to learn* list for the longest time. I've often played it behind vocalists but never really worked on it.

Really enjoyed it David ! You brought out some really nice inner voicings on the tune and as usual, you have that refined lyrical, singing touch which is so important for a tune like this. And then the vamp at the end was cool.

Bravo !!


Thanks Dave, glad you liked it.
I am going to learn some more Wilder tunes I think. I know 'moon and sand' but what others are there?
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#1722902 - 07/29/11 09:26 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1332
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Just thought you guys/gals would appreciate this (Monk's advice to Steve Lacy


Edited by chrisbell (07/29/11 09:27 AM)
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#1722909 - 07/29/11 09:40 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: chrisbell]
jjo Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 625
Loc: Chicago
Jazzwee: One suggestion would by to try to tune out the drummer and just listen to the bass player. I find I seem to play my best when we have some informal time with just bass and piano. If you two develop a good groove, maybe the drummer will improve by hearing the two of you.

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#1722914 - 07/29/11 09:47 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1332
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Did any of you notice the groove issue in the rhythm section? It was more noticeable on this tune (ATTYA) where I couldn't really develop a good swing feel. The drummer was doing an anticipated 8th pattern right from the beginning.

The drummer sounds like he doesn't know what he's doing, he really has to play less. My suggestion if you want to keep the guy, is to hold trio rehearsals (drums/bass/pno) and work on the groove.
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#1723036 - 07/29/11 01:11 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: chrisbell]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: chrisbell
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Did any of you notice the groove issue in the rhythm section? It was more noticeable on this tune (ATTYA) where I couldn't really develop a good swing feel. The drummer was doing an anticipated 8th pattern right from the beginning.

The drummer sounds like he doesn't know what he's doing, he really has to play less. My suggestion if you want to keep the guy, is to hold trio rehearsals (drums/bass/pno) and work on the groove.


But HOW do you tell him to play less without getting him angry?

Do I just say: "Hi Joe, could we try just simplifying the ride cymbal pattern? I'd like to see if get a better groove...."
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#1723042 - 07/29/11 01:29 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1332
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
If his name is Joe, then yes that sounds like a good approach . . . smile

Always try and make it sound like you're all in it together . . .
"I'm not happy with our grooving/swing, let's try and make it better . . ."


Edited by chrisbell (07/29/11 01:30 PM)
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#1723054 - 07/29/11 01:49 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
I just emailed him now. We'll see what happens. I made a super friendly comment and referred to it as my teacher's comment from listening to our recordings. (He's a fan of my teacher). So I didn't make it out as coming from me. I added a bunch of praises too so hopefully it evens out (I was leaning on more positive).

I really like him though and knowing his personality (very soft spoken), he might appreciate the comment from an authority figure (my teacher).
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#1723125 - 07/29/11 03:54 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Well it worked out well. I got a response to the email and he realizes he was breaking the ride pattern, he said because he was having a conversation with me on the solos. He didn't realize he was breaking the groove so he thought the advice makes sense.

Whew! I think the fact that the advice came from someone he respected (rather than just little ol' me) helped.

I guess just like with pianists, too much complexity hurts not helps. I told him long ago that I was the "play simply" kind of guy.
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#1723194 - 07/29/11 05:29 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1332
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Cool.
Well that shows you that he's worth keeping around.
I had to tape my drummers highhat together to get him to understand what i meant. smile

Next time I might give him an offer he can't refuse . . .
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#1723236 - 07/29/11 06:32 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: chrisbell]
cubop Offline

Silver Supporter until Dec 28 2012


Registered: 12/17/10
Posts: 368
Loc: Norway
Chrisbell, I suppose you are not joking about the hihat. Making people understand what you mean can be tough, so whatever works... I had never thought it was possible to mess up things with the hihat, unless you put the accents on 1 and 3, or perhaps are way off on 2 and 4.
In an earlier post I see that you are practicing a form of martial arts, and since I have been doing that myself for a long time, it would be interesting to know what you are practicing. My own prctice is Yang style Tai Chi, and some forms of Chinese and Tibetan Chi Gung.

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#1723250 - 07/29/11 06:58 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
Well at least the drummer in my case understood what the concept of "break the pattern" (ding-a-ding ride pattern) meant because that would have been difficult trying to explain. Sometimes it's hard understanding what is entailed in other instruments.

For example, at my first gig with a sax player, the sax was out of tune. I didn't know if there was a tuning process and the sax player says she auto adjusts for the environment (temperature). New concept to me. So I kind looked like a fool when I said "do you need to tune?". Well the fact is she was out of tune on the first tune we did so that's why I brought it up.

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#1723255 - 07/29/11 07:24 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2991
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
>> So I kind looked like a fool when I said "do you need to tune?".
What's wrong with asking someone to tune up?

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#1723370 - 07/30/11 01:30 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7060
Loc: So. California
I guess a (good) sax player can tune it instinctively. There's no need to pretune. They adjust based on the temperature of the sax, not by tuning to some other instrument. I didn't know that.

I also never hear my bass player tune at a gig. (not like guitar players). I thought it's very professional that they arrive with their instruments pretuned. The drummer doesn't pretest his drums either.

When we set up there's already an audience sitting there (I have a friend play solo piano before the set and in between sets).

So we tend not to make noise as we set up. We just count it down and the first thing they hear is music. A little iffy sometimes because there's no sound check. So the first few bars may not be balanced.

I set up way early so I do a sound check on myself.
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#1723375 - 07/30/11 02:04 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
Doug McKenzie Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/25/05
Posts: 47
Loc: Australia
Hi David

I really enjoyed the 'Blackberry Winter' track you did - not a song I knew. Aside from 'Moon and Sand', the other Wilder songs that I really like are 'I'll Be Around' and 'While We're Young'
Doug

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#1723388 - 07/30/11 03:07 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: cubop]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1332
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: cubop
Chrisbell, I suppose you are not joking about the hihat. Making people understand what you mean can be tough, so whatever works... I had never thought it was possible to mess up things with the hihat, unless you put the accents on 1 and 3, or perhaps are way off on 2 and 4.

I was not joking smile I wanted to show him that he could swing without playing so much. I personally loathe hearing the hihat on 2 and 4 on e v e r y tune. That hihat pattern can really lock the beat in as well as getting in the way of my left hand.

Originally Posted By: cubop
In an earlier post I see that you are practicing a form of martial arts, and since I have been doing that myself for a long time, it would be interesting to know what you are practicing. My own prctice is Yang style Tai Chi, and some forms of Chinese and Tibetan Chi Gung.
Yang style Taichi is a great art. The school I belong to is Bujinkan Ninpo Taijutsu. The school itself contains the teachings of nine other schools; the oldest is over 900 years old.
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