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#1724477 - 08/01/11 11:36 AM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: PaulaPiano34]
Hank Drake Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/31/01
Posts: 1659
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Originally Posted By: chobeethaninov

Also, is this just me, or does it seem like recently there's a lot of emphasis on looks? Like Wang with her skimpy silk dresses and Lisitsa with her blonde hair blowing all over the place?? IMHO there seems to be a lot of "looks show" going on (who can make the best faces or wear the best designer clothes) and less about the actual music.


Seems to be a lot of that these days. Not that it didn't happen before - just look at some of Argerich's early DG covers. She wasn't wearing skimpy clothes, but her smoldering sensuality came through the camera lens.

On a related note, I stumbled on this site, which some may find amusing:

http://awkwardclassicalmusicphotos.com/
_________________________
Hank Drake

The composers want performers be imaginative, in the direction of their thinking--not just robots, who execute orders.
George Szell

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#1724485 - 08/01/11 11:57 AM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: Hank Drake]
PaulaPiano34 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/16/10
Posts: 1217
Originally Posted By: Hank Drake
Originally Posted By: chobeethaninov

Also, is this just me, or does it seem like recently there's a lot of emphasis on looks? Like Wang with her skimpy silk dresses and Lisitsa with her blonde hair blowing all over the place?? IMHO there seems to be a lot of "looks show" going on (who can make the best faces or wear the best designer clothes) and less about the actual music.


Seems to be a lot of that these days. Not that it didn't happen before - just look at some of Argerich's early DG covers. She wasn't wearing skimpy clothes, but her smoldering sensuality came through the camera lens.

On a related note, I stumbled on this site, which some may find amusing:

http://awkwardclassicalmusicphotos.com/


Yes but that I feel is different. Argerich never put looks before music and her sensuality was just something that came from inside of her strong personality.

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#1724520 - 08/01/11 12:54 PM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: Pogorelich.]
Skorpius Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/17/08
Posts: 751
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Please do not compare other pianists to Horowitz.................


There are tons of pianists that I'd rather hear than Horowitz.
_________________________
Working On-

Deux Arabesques, Debussy


On Queue-

Danse Russe from Petroushka, Stravinsky
Toccata, Ravel





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#1724522 - 08/01/11 01:01 PM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: Hank Drake]
beet31425 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3754
Loc: Bay Area, CA
Originally Posted By: Hank Drake
On a related note, I stumbled on this site, which some may find amusing:

http://awkwardclassicalmusicphotos.com/


Those are nice.

I always thought the worst album covers ever were Norrington's Bruckner covers. He looks like the drunk uncle at a party. Awful:

http://www.musicalcriticism.com/recordings/cd-norrington-bruckner7.jpg
http://www.independent.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00136/bruckner-cd-cover_136785t.jpg
http://media.jazzstore.com/cache/w200/pr...mphony-no-6.jpg
_________________________
Beethoven: op.109, 110, 111

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#1724532 - 08/01/11 01:19 PM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: slerk]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17949
Loc: Victoria, BC
As I said in "the other Argerich thread" where a video was posted of Wang accompanying Harrell in Brahms: If I had been an audience member and Wang had walked on stage dressed as she is in that video, I'm enough of an old fogey to have got up and walked out in disgust.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#1724538 - 08/01/11 01:33 PM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: argerichfan]
BadOrange Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 368
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Originally Posted By: stores
Yuja, however, possesses technique like none I've yet witnessed. I've heard thousands of pianists and for me to say that her technique blows me away, well, it's saying something.

stores, is there a particular YouTube you could recommend? I only say this because I value your input.

As for technique, well this is hard to beat:


thanks for posting that. Great technique and posture. None of that overindulgent body movement. I love the way he bounces on the keys. That is how its done.


Edited by BadOrange (08/01/11 01:34 PM)

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#1724601 - 08/01/11 03:02 PM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: slerk]
pno Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1042
Loc: ♪oron♪o, on♪ario, canada...
Some people in this thread seem to mix up objective technical ability with subjective artistic preference.
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#1724614 - 08/01/11 03:24 PM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: slerk]
liszt85 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 3159
Focusing on looks (skimpy clothes, flowing blonde hair) seems to work against these pianists! People judge them based on how they dress and somehow have a model in mind that assigns an inverse relationship between a pianist being conscious about looks and his/her talent. That's what I perceive from several of the comments made here.
_________________________
Current:
Beethoven: Sonata Op.31, No.2 ("Tempest")
Debussy: Danseuses de Delphes (Prelude 1, Book 1)
Next in line:
Chopin: Ballade No. 1 in G minor, Op.23
Debussy: Le vent dans la plaine (Prelude 3, Book 1)
Debussy: Les sons et les parfums tournent dans l'air du soir (Prelude 4, Book 1)

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#1724637 - 08/01/11 03:59 PM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: liszt85]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13776
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Originally Posted By: liszt85
Focusing on looks (skimpy clothes, flowing blonde hair) seems to work against these pianists! People judge them based on how they dress and somehow have a model in mind that assigns an inverse relationship between a pianist being conscious about looks and his/her talent. That's what I perceive from several of the comments made here.


It seems to be more of a piano phenomenon than a violin one. People seem to be more accepting of attractive violinists for some reason. (Josefowicz, Hahn, St. John, Akiko-Meyers...)

On a bit of a tangent, I think male pianists err too far in the wrong direction - ignoring dress altogether and wearing the same drab suits all the time. The French seem to be way ahead of the curve: Thibaudet, Tharaud, and Bavouzet always look pretty sharp.
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#1724662 - 08/01/11 04:37 PM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: Kreisler]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8851
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
The French seem to be way ahead of the curve: Thibaudet, Tharaud, and Bavouzet always look pretty sharp.

Not to mention:



Whew!
_________________________
Jason

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#1724680 - 08/01/11 05:05 PM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: liszt85]
PaulaPiano34 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/16/10
Posts: 1217
Originally Posted By: liszt85
Focusing on looks (skimpy clothes, flowing blonde hair) seems to work against these pianists! People judge them based on how they dress and somehow have a model in mind that assigns an inverse relationship between a pianist being conscious about looks and his/her talent. That's what I perceive from several of the comments made here.


I'm not saying that once I see a skimpy-dressed pianist, I immediately judge them as bad, but I feel people are emphasizing looks too much over the actual music making.

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#1724707 - 08/01/11 06:14 PM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: slerk]
BadOrange Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 368
Loc: Banned
honestly, anyone at that age has earned the right to never be criticized for being old or "losing their touch". When you get old, you get old. Just a little rude considering what she had/has accomplished. It is not easy playing piano at that age. Very few can. Unless you have played with perfect technique all your life, you are bound to have some health issues that will make playing very painful. Not to mention your hearing is most likely down to 6 kHz.

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#1724708 - 08/01/11 06:15 PM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: BadOrange]
PaulaPiano34 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/16/10
Posts: 1217
Originally Posted By: BadOrange
honestly, anyone at that age has earned the right to never be criticized for being old or "losing their touch". When you get old, you get old. Just a little rude considering what she had/has accomplished. It is not easy playing piano at that age. Very few can. Unless you have played with perfect technique all your life, you are bound to have some health issues that will make playing very painful. Not to mention your hearing is most likely down to 6 kHz.





+1

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#1724739 - 08/01/11 07:08 PM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: BruceD]
nola Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/31/11
Posts: 80
Loc: Louisiana
Agree, Bruce!

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#1724740 - 08/01/11 07:14 PM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: PaulaPiano34]
nola Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/31/11
Posts: 80
Loc: Louisiana
furthermore, the videos w/the gals inappropriately dressed--well
they are getting really obscene comments. If you are really
focused and serious about your art, why take such silly
side-trips...it just generates more offensiveness, poor taste,
entices kooks to post junk...

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#1724846 - 08/01/11 10:07 PM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: BruceD]
Ridicolosamente Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 1467
Loc: Miami, Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: BruceD
...I'm enough of an old fogey to have got up and walked out in disgust...
All part of the charm we love Bruce smile
_________________________
Currently working on:
-Dane Rudhyar's Stars from Pentagrams No 3

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#1724880 - 08/01/11 11:19 PM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: pianoloverus]
slerk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 320
Loc: Massachusetts, USA
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: slerk
Yang is really, really popular among the Asian community, I can tell you that. More so than Li Yundi or Lang Lang (obviously).
What do you base this statement on or is just idle speculation?



Let's see, I am Asian myself and don't live in a pineapple under the sea.

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#1724881 - 08/01/11 11:21 PM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: PaulaPiano34]
slerk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 320
Loc: Massachusetts, USA
Originally Posted By: chobeethaninov
Originally Posted By: liszt85
Focusing on looks (skimpy clothes, flowing blonde hair) seems to work against these pianists! People judge them based on how they dress and somehow have a model in mind that assigns an inverse relationship between a pianist being conscious about looks and his/her talent. That's what I perceive from several of the comments made here.


I'm not saying that once I see a skimpy-dressed pianist, I immediately judge them as bad, but I feel people are emphasizing looks too much over the actual music making.


This used to not be a problem with records and CDs! But a lot of the appeal in piano music is the presentation as well; which is why LL has a strong fanclub and Liszt was so popular.

Somebody mentioned the Bach Partitas? Her Bach is amazing; it truly sings. Her Partitas really show her musicality. She can play Bach as romantically as Chopin Nocturnes or as violently as certain Prokofiev. I applaud her!

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#1724891 - 08/01/11 11:36 PM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: Ridicolosamente]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8851
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: Ridicolosamente
Originally Posted By: BruceD
...I'm enough of an old fogey to have got up and walked out in disgust...
All part of the charm we love Bruce smile

Yes, we do love Bruce. He can be so unintentionally funny sometimes! (Just kidding.)

This is why I love this forum so much, all the colourful members here, pianoloverus, Kreisler, stores, bad orange, MarkC, liszt85, the 'other' Jason, Andromaque... never a dull moment.
_________________________
Jason

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#1724905 - 08/02/11 12:11 AM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: Ridicolosamente]
PaulaPiano34 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/16/10
Posts: 1217
Originally Posted By: Ridicolosamente
Originally Posted By: BruceD
...I'm enough of an old fogey to have got up and walked out in disgust...
All part of the charm we love Bruce smile


BruceD-my favorite person.

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#1724988 - 08/02/11 03:19 AM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: slerk]
izaldu Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 1250
Loc:
Who cares if her technique is not what it was 30 years ago? Seriously, comparing YW or VL to MA is plain obscene. I guess Arrau recordings from his 30s are better than the ones from his 60s because his technique wasn t the same? Everybody blames the age of Argerich. There are a lot of examples of pianists with a flawless technique at 70 and older. Argerich probably has other issues. Watching her most recent videos , i can t see any flaws in her technique.

This whole technique thing ... kids go out of the conservatoire and we re supposed to believe they are Arraus or Richters or Marthas. It takes something more than fast fingers to become an artist of such stature. It s not the olympics, you know ... Meanwhile, there a re a ton of artists that remain obscure that are worth in my opinin much more than most of these young virtuosos.

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#1725009 - 08/02/11 05:43 AM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: slerk]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5017
There are plenty of pianists (and violinists) who keep performing in public well past their sell-by date, when their technique has gone into tatters - I actually attended a concert recently of one such pianist who I'd admired on his CD recordings (made over 20 years ago), and wished I hadn't....

If only he'd followed the example of Ashkenazy, who has long stopped playing piano in public because he couldn't rely on his fingers on the day anymore due to arthritis (though he still makes excellent recordings).

But I can't say that Argerich is in that category - her playing technically is still in the top drawer (based on recent concert broadcasts). She isn't one of my favorite pianists - her sudden impulsive spurts of tone and pace, which are present also in her earliest recordings - are still there, and remain disconcerting to me because they seem random and often misplaced (e.g. in a recent broadcast of Chopin's E minor Concerto). OK in a live concert, but disturbing on repeated hearings.

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#1725024 - 08/02/11 07:19 AM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: slerk]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19271
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: slerk
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: slerk
Yang is really, really popular among the Asian community, I can tell you that. More so than Li Yundi or Lang Lang (obviously).
What do you base this statement on or is just idle speculation?



Let's see, I am Asian myself and don't live in a pineapple under the sea.
So if I'm Caucasian, I'll automatically know how three white pianists rank in popularity?

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#1725037 - 08/02/11 08:13 AM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: slerk]
Hank Drake Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/31/01
Posts: 1659
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
I really can't find anything wrong with Argerich's technique these days. Having a good technique at 70 - which really isn't all that old - is not remarkable in and of itself. Having the kind of stratospheric level of technique (not just mechanics, but real technique) that Argerich still posesses is noteworthy. And her musical insights have improved with age - for example, she's much more convincing in slow movements than she used to be.

Let's also remember that Argerich faced a life threatening illness about a decade ago. We're lucky she's still alive and blessing us with such great music making.
_________________________
Hank Drake

The composers want performers be imaginative, in the direction of their thinking--not just robots, who execute orders.
George Szell

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#1725135 - 08/02/11 11:50 AM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: argerichfan]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6070
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
Can we make a BruceD appreciation thread? laugh

Originally Posted By: argerichfan

Yes, we do love Bruce. He can be so unintentionally funny sometimes! (Just kidding.)

This is why I love this forum so much, all the colourful members here, pianoloverus, Kreisler, stores, bad orange, MarkC, liszt85, the 'other' Jason, Andromaque... never a dull moment.

frown frown

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#1725175 - 08/02/11 12:45 PM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: Orange Soda King]
liszt85 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 3159
Originally Posted By: Orange Soda King
Can we make a BruceD appreciation thread? laugh

Originally Posted By: argerichfan

Yes, we do love Bruce. He can be so unintentionally funny sometimes! (Just kidding.)

This is why I love this forum so much, all the colourful members here, pianoloverus, Kreisler, stores, bad orange, MarkC, liszt85, the 'other' Jason, Andromaque... never a dull moment.

frown frown


OSK is the most colorful of all: ORANGE!
_________________________
Current:
Beethoven: Sonata Op.31, No.2 ("Tempest")
Debussy: Danseuses de Delphes (Prelude 1, Book 1)
Next in line:
Chopin: Ballade No. 1 in G minor, Op.23
Debussy: Le vent dans la plaine (Prelude 3, Book 1)
Debussy: Les sons et les parfums tournent dans l'air du soir (Prelude 4, Book 1)

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#1725189 - 08/02/11 01:04 PM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: liszt85]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8851
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: liszt85
Originally Posted By: Orange Soda King
Can we make a BruceD appreciation thread? laugh

Originally Posted By: argerichfan

Yes, we do love Bruce. He can be so unintentionally funny sometimes! (Just kidding.)

This is why I love this forum so much, all the colourful members here, pianoloverus, Kreisler, stores, bad orange, MarkC, liszt85, the 'other' Jason, Andromaque... never a dull moment.

frown frown


OSK is the most colorful of all: ORANGE!

yeah, I kinda forgot to include him...
_________________________
Jason

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#1725190 - 08/02/11 01:06 PM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: PaulaPiano34]
liszt85 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 3159
Originally Posted By: chobeethaninov
Originally Posted By: liszt85
Focusing on looks (skimpy clothes, flowing blonde hair) seems to work against these pianists! People judge them based on how they dress and somehow have a model in mind that assigns an inverse relationship between a pianist being conscious about looks and his/her talent. That's what I perceive from several of the comments made here.


I'm not saying that once I see a skimpy-dressed pianist, I immediately judge them as bad, but I feel people are emphasizing looks too much over the actual music making.


How do you know that all the attention they give to looks takes away attention from music? You feel that way though, and that's all I said. The fact that you think there is an inverse correlation is all I was commenting on. Btw, I wasn't commenting on just your post. This seems like a general view here on PW, one that I don't agree with. There very likely exists one (or more) shabbily dressed horrible pianist for every well dressed horrible pianist. wink

Also, all the "well dressed" and pianists people refer to in such threads are always the younger pianists (LL, YW, VL, etc). Have you ever considered the thought that it might actually be the case that you prefer older pianists to these younger pianists and so are misled into believing that choice of dress has an inverse relationship with musicality?

So I don't think people should even care about what dress or suit pianists choose to wear. Comment on the musicality, that's all fine. However, to say that focusing on looks takes away attention from the music (or "emphasize looks OVER the actual music making") is being unfair. I think they are all the more professional for taking the effort to look good on stage as well, to provide a complete experience to a live audience (visual as well as auditory).
_________________________
Current:
Beethoven: Sonata Op.31, No.2 ("Tempest")
Debussy: Danseuses de Delphes (Prelude 1, Book 1)
Next in line:
Chopin: Ballade No. 1 in G minor, Op.23
Debussy: Le vent dans la plaine (Prelude 3, Book 1)
Debussy: Les sons et les parfums tournent dans l'air du soir (Prelude 4, Book 1)

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#1725193 - 08/02/11 01:09 PM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: pianoloverus]
liszt85 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 3159
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: slerk
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: slerk
Yang is really, really popular among the Asian community, I can tell you that. More so than Li Yundi or Lang Lang (obviously).
What do you base this statement on or is just idle speculation?



Let's see, I am Asian myself and don't live in a pineapple under the sea.
So if I'm Caucasian, I'll automatically know how three white pianists rank in popularity?


You probably wanted to ask "So if I'm Caucasian, I'll automatically know how popular three (white) pianists are in the Caucasian community". Don't try to pull a fast one on slerk. wink When asked this question, it doesn't seem so very absurd anymore, does it (assuming that you get to talk to a lot of Caucasians, by virtue of having lived in places with lots of Caucasians for a majority of your life and having talked to piano enthusiasts over the years)?
_________________________
Current:
Beethoven: Sonata Op.31, No.2 ("Tempest")
Debussy: Danseuses de Delphes (Prelude 1, Book 1)
Next in line:
Chopin: Ballade No. 1 in G minor, Op.23
Debussy: Le vent dans la plaine (Prelude 3, Book 1)
Debussy: Les sons et les parfums tournent dans l'air du soir (Prelude 4, Book 1)

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#1725213 - 08/02/11 01:35 PM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: liszt85]
slerk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 320
Loc: Massachusetts, USA
Originally Posted By: liszt85
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: slerk
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: slerk
Yang is really, really popular among the Asian community, I can tell you that. More so than Li Yundi or Lang Lang (obviously).
What do you base this statement on or is just idle speculation?



Let's see, I am Asian myself and don't live in a pineapple under the sea.
So if I'm Caucasian, I'll automatically know how three white pianists rank in popularity?


Thank you. It's mostly from post-recital events that parents will gather around and talk about their kids and progress... It's very competitive. I don't know if anybody has seen the PBS documentaries of kid pianists in Shanghai? They practice about five hours minimum a day, with self-imposed isolation for the opes of competition; because let's face it! Concert Pianist is the most competitive profession out there..

And while tennis stars retire young, as do sports stars... I mean, Kempff was still playing at age 75+ and I'm sure some composers died on the keys..

You probably wanted to ask "So if I'm Caucasian, I'll automatically know how popular three (white) pianists are in the Caucasian community". Don't try to pull a fast one on slerk. wink When asked this question, it doesn't seem so very absurd anymore, does it (assuming that you get to talk to a lot of Caucasians, by virtue of having lived in places with lots of Caucasians for a majority of your life and having talked to piano enthusiasts over the years)?


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