Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner Argerich has lost her touch?

I've made a topic out of fun, comparing Yuja and Argerich in what seems to become a copied pose.

Since starting piano, Argerich quickly became my favorite pianist. She seemed almost godlike in the sense that her speed and precision were amazing, while still retaining musicality. She didn't flourish over the top (think LL) nor was her playing grossly superfluous.

But some believe that Argerich has lost it with age, that she's beat up with life, that newer pianists like Y. Wang and Lisista have surpassed her.

I don't know... Although she's old, she's still playing virtuosically at Verbier, and still alive.

But to argue who the greatest female pianist of the 20th-21st century is.. I have to vote for Argerich hands-down. At her prime, you could argue she was better than Horowitz.

Who thinks that? Who is "some"?

No one said anything of the kind on your other thread, if that's where you're getting this reading of the masses from.

I don't think this is a commonly held opinion at all.

-J

70 is not really that old.

It's not necessary to name names. They are just opinions that you can assert or refute here.

People said they've surpassed her technically. Technical ability doesn't make one artist better than another..

Please do not compare other pianists to Horowitz.................

(I'm listening to Mahler 6- scherzo follows 1st movement, as it SHOULD, and not diluted by the premature appearance of the slow movement, IMO.)

Where was I...

Argerich has always been fair game, and when one scales the heights of accomplishment, of course there are going to be people who question her mastery, and that is fair enough.

It doesn't really mean anything to me anymore. I put her on the level of a Horowitz, Rachmaninov and Richter, and that is all that really matters. I have heard the recordings of those guys -WOW factor to the highest degree!- but Argerich is there too.

Hmm. I still prefer Argerich to Yuja Wang and Lisitsa. But in general, I prefer older (and passed on) pianists to younger pianists, such as Marc-Andre Hamelin, Andre Laplante, Stephen Hough, Alicia de Larrocha, Mitsuko Uchida, Emanuel Ax, Radu Lupu, Sokolov, etc.

I'm guessing that slerk is referring to the comments I made about Argerich/Yuja's technical skill. Slerk, I am not saying that Argerich has lost her "touch". I'm simply saying that Yuja has surpassed her from a standpoint of technique. Technique, however, does not a complete musician make. Argerich, make no mistake, is a phenomenal pianist by any standard. Her technique in her prime was absolutely second to none. Yuja, however, possesses technique like none I've yet witnessed. I've heard thousands of pianists and for me to say that her technique blows me away, well, it's saying something. She has a great deal yet to learn as a musician, however, and I'm hoping that with age and experience her playing will mature as well.

Additionally, I'd like to say that I, for the life of me, don't understand the fascination with Lisitsa.

Seriously, you can say and think whatever you'd like, but claiming "some say" naturally begs the question, "like who?" At the age of 70, I think she still has time to get even better

The natural response to "Yeah, I kinda made that up..."

-Daniel

Her accessibility adds to her appeal I think. What I find fascinating is all the bashing she receives. Greatest pianist ever? Nah... Great pianist anyways? Absolutely!

Some respect, guys!!

And what Jason (her fan) said.

I agree with everything you said. I'm intrigued to hear Yuja's playing in 10 or 20 years.

Lisitsa? Really?

Wang is really, really popular among the Asian community, I can tell you that. More so than Li Yundi or Lang Lang (obviously). She has a very charming nature and I do enjoy her playing.

Valentina is also really down to earth. I was reading earlier here that she stayed with a forum member for practicing, and things like that..

But I think to be a great pianist who sells well to the public, you need another touch of personality. Argerich had that; almost as if she played "hard to get" with fans. You could also be popular by being extremely down to earth and friendly.

And why must we not compare to Horowitz? Well, with him, people either love him or hate him.

Yeah. I don't like Lisitsa too much... I heard that she has a MEAN Liszt concerto 1 though, I should hear it. And I do like how she "lets it rip" in the Rachmaninoff 1st sonata, but there are other things in her playing of it I don't like too much...

stores, is there a particular YouTube you could recommend? I only say this because I value your input.

As for technique, well this is hard to beat:

I was just surprised that you would mention her at all. Don't get me wrong, I think she is quite good, but not anywhere near Argerich-good. (and I'd rather listen to Wang than either)

OSK, what do you think of her Chopin etudes? Can you give me a few examples of the things you don't like?

Personally, I think her Chopin Etudes are fine. But I mean, I would rather listen to larger-scale pieces than Chopin Etudes... Such as the Sonatas, Scherzi, Ballades, Polonaise-Fantasie, etc. etc. etc. And I feel that her playing of larger-scale pieces is rather shallow. It's hard to explain in text, but compare her Rachmaninoff Sonata No. 1 to the great (and sadly underrated) John Ogdon's performance.

But in the end, it may just be personal taste. So if we need to agree to disagree, that's perfectly fine with me.

We don't necessarily disagree completely. I enjoy her performances of the shorter works. I do go back to watch her etude videos and also go back for some nocturnes and waltzes but never for a concerto or a sonata really. It wasn't a conscious decision that I made and I can certainly see your point.

That's the only statement that I disagree with. I think Chopin's small-scale works, especially his etudes, are on par with his large-scale works (if not indeed sometimes greater), and I have no preference for the longer pieces. Of course, there is always the issue of overplaying, but that affects small- and large-scale alike.

-J

Neither Wang nor Lisitsa can carry Argerich's music bag as far as I'm concerned, either technically or especially musically.

Lisitsa and Yuja compared to Martha? Let s hear their Bach partitas and judge!

Gavrilyuk, in my opinion, blows both VL and YW out of the water. And recently i was listening to somepieces by Lang lang and Gavrilyuk, same repertoire. And the winner was Alexander again. More and more, fame means nothing. I think Yuja is becoming the female version of lang lang. Hopefully she ll stay away from that. As for technique, i think Hamelin and Volods are out of this world. Yuja s version of Volodos ' Turkis march i heard recently was pretty sloppy in some sections. Anyway it not that what bothers me of her playing. Anyway , she s still what , in her early 20s?

Pogo, i d compare Richter to Horowitz any day of the week!! In Beethoven and Bach , i don t think Volodya would last two rounds!

It makes them better in the area of technical ability. Technical ability allows an artist to demonstrate their musicality.

What do you base this statement on or is just idle speculation?

How is this relevant to discussing how great a pianist is? Stayed with a forum member....who cares?

Lisitsa and Wang are IMO nowhere near that category of being a world class pianist who will be remembered as one of the greats. You place far too much emphasis on personality.

If Argerich lives another 20 years and keeps on playing it's probably true that some pianist will surpass her technical skill(or maybe some already have) at one point. I don't see the slightest relevance in discussing something like this. Does anyone expect her to be able to play as well technically when she's 90 as she did when she was younger?

At such a high level of technical skill, I think it's irrelevant to compare technical prowess. Argerich, Hamelin, Kissin, Katsaris, etc. all have supreme technical ability.

Well said PL.

Every performer, particularly instrumentalists and singers, must eventually cope with the limitations brought on by age. (The only exceptions I can think of are those who died tragically young, like Lipatti and Kapell, and Nathan Milstein whose technique at his last concert at 82 was undiminished.)

Pianists are luckier than singers. Piano technique is basically in the brain, so as long as their fingers retain their strength and ccordination, they can continue well into old age. Vocal chords are not as durable and break down at a younger age. Argerich is 70 - that's not old as pianists go. If she's lost anything technically, and from what I can tell she hasn't, she's gained in musical perception.

Exactly my thought. What basis?


Exactly! We listen to performances NOT because the pianist has done some good deeds!


No one can be in tip-top shape all through life. Aging is part of life. One cannot expect Argerich (or any one else for that matter) to be at her best technical prowess when compared to her younger days. Lisitsa and Wang are newcomers who are trying their best to make their niche in this competitive piano world. Though they possess great technical skills, only time can tell if they will be able sustain their popularity. Personally, I believe they both still have room to grow to be top performers. Though their playing can be dazzling and showy, it is still very much playing that focuses on the "veneer". Nevertheless, the bottom line is that such comparison is pointless.

Argerich is a fantastic artist and really communicates something deep and profound in the music she plays. I think that as she grows older, her interpretations grow even better. Wang and Lisitisa are musical, but I feel they just don't reach as deep as Argerich and all those other old masters.

Also, is this just me, or does it seem like recently there's a lot of emphasis on looks? Like Wang with her skimpy silk dresses and Lisitsa with her blonde hair blowing all over the place?? IMHO there seems to be a lot of "looks show" going on (who can make the best faces or wear the best designer clothes) and less about the actual music.

Seems to be a lot of that these days. Not that it didn't happen before - just look at some of Argerich's early DG covers. She wasn't wearing skimpy clothes, but her smoldering sensuality came through the camera lens.

On a related note, I stumbled on this site, which some may find amusing:

http://awkwardclassicalmusicphotos.com/

Yes but that I feel is different. Argerich never put looks before music and her sensuality was just something that came from inside of her strong personality.

There are tons of pianists that I'd rather hear than Horowitz.

Those are nice.

I always thought the worst album covers ever were Norrington's Bruckner covers. He looks like the drunk uncle at a party. Awful:

http://www.musicalcriticism.com/recordings/cd-norrington-bruckner7.jpg
http://www.independent.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00136/bruckner-cd-cover_136785t.jpg
http://media.jazzstore.com/cache/w2...er-norrington-bruckner-symphony-no-6.jpg

As I said in "the other Argerich thread" where a video was posted of Wang accompanying Harrell in Brahms: If I had been an audience member and Wang had walked on stage dressed as she is in that video, I'm enough of an old fogey to have got up and walked out in disgust.

Regards,

thanks for posting that. Great technique and posture. None of that overindulgent body movement. I love the way he bounces on the keys. That is how its done.

Some people in this thread seem to mix up objective technical ability with subjective artistic preference.

Focusing on looks (skimpy clothes, flowing blonde hair) seems to work against these pianists! People judge them based on how they dress and somehow have a model in mind that assigns an inverse relationship between a pianist being conscious about looks and his/her talent. That's what I perceive from several of the comments made here.

It seems to be more of a piano phenomenon than a violin one. People seem to be more accepting of attractive violinists for some reason. (Josefowicz, Hahn, St. John, Akiko-Meyers...)

On a bit of a tangent, I think male pianists err too far in the wrong direction - ignoring dress altogether and wearing the same drab suits all the time. The French seem to be way ahead of the curve: Thibaudet, Tharaud, and Bavouzet always look pretty sharp.

Not to mention:



Whew!

I'm not saying that once I see a skimpy-dressed pianist, I immediately judge them as bad, but I feel people are emphasizing looks too much over the actual music making.

honestly, anyone at that age has earned the right to never be criticized for being old or "losing their touch". When you get old, you get old. Just a little rude considering what she had/has accomplished. It is not easy playing piano at that age. Very few can. Unless you have played with perfect technique all your life, you are bound to have some health issues that will make playing very painful. Not to mention your hearing is most likely down to 6 kHz.

+1

Agree, Bruce!

furthermore, the videos w/the gals inappropriately dressed--well
they are getting really obscene comments. If you are really
focused and serious about your art, why take such silly
side-trips...it just generates more offensiveness, poor taste,
entices kooks to post junk...

All part of the charm we love Bruce

Let's see, I am Asian myself and don't live in a pineapple under the sea.

This used to not be a problem with records and CDs! But a lot of the appeal in piano music is the presentation as well; which is why LL has a strong fanclub and Liszt was so popular.

Somebody mentioned the Bach Partitas? Her Bach is amazing; it truly sings. Her Partitas really show her musicality. She can play Bach as romantically as Chopin Nocturnes or as violently as certain Prokofiev. I applaud her!

Yes, we do love Bruce. He can be so unintentionally funny sometimes! (Just kidding.)

This is why I love this forum so much, all the colourful members here, pianoloverus, Kreisler, stores, bad orange, MarkC, liszt85, the 'other' Jason, Andromaque... never a dull moment.

BruceD-my favorite person.

Who cares if her technique is not what it was 30 years ago? Seriously, comparing YW or VL to MA is plain obscene. I guess Arrau recordings from his 30s are better than the ones from his 60s because his technique wasn t the same? Everybody blames the age of Argerich. There are a lot of examples of pianists with a flawless technique at 70 and older. Argerich probably has other issues. Watching her most recent videos , i can t see any flaws in her technique.

This whole technique thing ... kids go out of the conservatoire and we re supposed to believe they are Arraus or Richters or Marthas. It takes something more than fast fingers to become an artist of such stature. It s not the olympics, you know ... Meanwhile, there a re a ton of artists that remain obscure that are worth in my opinin much more than most of these young virtuosos.

There are plenty of pianists (and violinists) who keep performing in public well past their sell-by date, when their technique has gone into tatters - I actually attended a concert recently of one such pianist who I'd admired on his CD recordings (made over 20 years ago), and wished I hadn't....

If only he'd followed the example of Ashkenazy, who has long stopped playing piano in public because he couldn't rely on his fingers on the day anymore due to arthritis (though he still makes excellent recordings).

But I can't say that Argerich is in that category - her playing technically is still in the top drawer (based on recent concert broadcasts). She isn't one of my favorite pianists - her sudden impulsive spurts of tone and pace, which are present also in her earliest recordings - are still there, and remain disconcerting to me because they seem random and often misplaced (e.g. in a recent broadcast of Chopin's E minor Concerto). OK in a live concert, but disturbing on repeated hearings.

So if I'm Caucasian, I'll automatically know how three white pianists rank in popularity?

I really can't find anything wrong with Argerich's technique these days. Having a good technique at 70 - which really isn't all that old - is not remarkable in and of itself. Having the kind of stratospheric level of technique (not just mechanics, but real technique) that Argerich still posesses is noteworthy. And her musical insights have improved with age - for example, she's much more convincing in slow movements than she used to be.

Let's also remember that Argerich faced a life threatening illness about a decade ago. We're lucky she's still alive and blessing us with such great music making.

Can we make a BruceD appreciation thread?

OSK is the most colorful of all: ORANGE!

yeah, I kinda forgot to include him...

How do you know that all the attention they give to looks takes away attention from music? You feel that way though, and that's all I said. The fact that you think there is an inverse correlation is all I was commenting on. Btw, I wasn't commenting on just your post. This seems like a general view here on PW, one that I don't agree with. There very likely exists one (or more) shabbily dressed horrible pianist for every well dressed horrible pianist.

Also, all the "well dressed" and pianists people refer to in such threads are always the younger pianists (LL, YW, VL, etc). Have you ever considered the thought that it might actually be the case that you prefer older pianists to these younger pianists and so are misled into believing that choice of dress has an inverse relationship with musicality?

So I don't think people should even care about what dress or suit pianists choose to wear. Comment on the musicality, that's all fine. However, to say that focusing on looks takes away attention from the music (or "emphasize looks OVER the actual music making") is being unfair. I think they are all the more professional for taking the effort to look good on stage as well, to provide a complete experience to a live audience (visual as well as auditory).

You probably wanted to ask "So if I'm Caucasian, I'll automatically know how popular three (white) pianists are in the Caucasian community". Don't try to pull a fast one on slerk. When asked this question, it doesn't seem so very absurd anymore, does it (assuming that you get to talk to a lot of Caucasians, by virtue of having lived in places with lots of Caucasians for a majority of your life and having talked to piano enthusiasts over the years)?

I didn't probably want to ask him that...that's what I asked him.

That is not what you asked him. You asked him if you'd automatically know the popularity of white pianists! That isn't the issue here. The issue here is if you would probably know the popularity of pianists in the Caucasian community as opposed to the Asian community because you seemed to object to slerk claiming he was Asian and that he probably had a good idea about what popularity of pianists was like in the Asian community.

Is this so very difficult?

It seems difficult for you to understand.

Yea, it is difficult for me to understand why its so very difficult for you to see the difference in focus.. I thought logical abilities were much more common in the population than that. I strangely have a suspicion that you realize too that there is a difference but are just too adamant to admit it.

We're flirting with a lock here.

Just agree to disagree and MOVE ON.

That's 3 (only very slightly aggressive) exchanges between us and we're already flirting with a lock? My, you are one strict mod, Kreisler! I'd agree with you if you just said that this topic has run its course. Yea yea, I know.. it doesn't matter if I agree or not.

Since there was some discussion above regarding attire, I thought the following to be interesting (I hate to say it, but she seems somewhat proud of the review).

Music review: Yuja Wang and Lionel Bringuier at Hollywood Bowl

I'd like to add that she DID receive a little note from me.

Fleisher had a little something to say about the obsession with "stars" in his PBS interview:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/entertainment/july-dec11/leonfleisher_07-18.html

I'll bet she treasures it.

about couture or about music??

I have a feeling stores's advice on both would be well worth heeding.

Well, Herr moderator may be more privy to things than common mortals, but last I checked the Maison Dior knows no stores.. (only boutiques!)

Plus the lady is pleased with the reviews of both accounts. That should tell you (and him) something.

Oh she does. She fired back and I may have lost a friend, but I stand by what I said and the way I feel about things like this.

Maybe you could share the reason you have that feeling. Then maybe your repeated fawning over him will seem less meretricious.

In all of his postings, stores' has proven one thing over and over again - the music is always at the top of his priority list and his respect for the music drives everything he says. (The moderator in me sometimes wishes it didn't make him so tenacious in his arguments, but the musician in me finds himself agreeing with stores 99% of the time.)

+1

By the way: stores, don't worry if you lost a friend. You have plenty of other fantastic musical friends, one of whom is now among my very favorite pianists now, and whom I dearly hope to study with next summer!

That's because the violin is so small compared to the body. When you perform violin, you're much more "out there" than if you play piano. There's no big hulking contraption to hide behind. As for Yuja's dress...well...I'll say that as long as she's wearing it for the right reasons, there's no basis for us judging it against her. Sometimes when you look good, you feel good. It's not the most practical dress for a pianist though, because when you're sitting down someone might be able to peek up. At least she isn't a cellist?

Wait a minute... Did I miss something???? Is Stores friends with Yuja Wang???? Who else is Stores friends with??? Wow!!!!

Apparently so.