Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum WNG action vs. Kawai Millenium action

I do not have experience with the newest version of the Kawai actions. This does not mean that I don't have experience working on older Kawai composite actions, and it also doesn't mean that I don't have experience playing Kawais with the newest version.



"Denigrating" is an outrageous exaggeration, and I have no idea how you inferred that from my post. Kawai should be lauded for its pioneering efforts in materials science, especially when everyone else was laughing at them. I don't think the Kawai parts are bad; it's just my impression is that WNG is far superior.

And since you're inferring that, as a "technician in training", I'm not really qualified to have that impression....

For the past two years, I've worked in a university shop, which was a valuable experience. During that time, I've made lots of connections, toured three factories, and done more hammer filing, action regulation, key rebushing, string replacement, center repinning, hammer hanging, and touchweight correction work than a lot of professional technicians, all while studying piano at the graduate level.




I'm saying that most of the non-Shigeru Kawais I've come across (either working on them as a tech or playing them as a pianist) have a heavier touch. Inertia and friction tend to be causes of that, so, yes. In my experience, Shigeru Kawais, which I believe use the same parts, do not have this characteristic.



I have stated numerous times, including this thread, that I personally have a preference for light actions. In fact, it's probably safe to say that most pianos are heavier than I prefer.




Touchweight correction is more or less a standard procedure where I was working, time and money permitting, whether it's a 30 year old practice room grand or the concert grands in the hall.




I agree with you only to a point. If I don't like a piano, I can live without playing it, or working on it (at least for now).



While this is probably true for other comments I've made around here, particularly about Steinway, I don't think it's true in this instance. Regardless, I am well within my rights to be anonymous, especially since I have no affiliation with any companies and have not yet made a living in the industry. If you have a problem with the forum policy, you can appeal to the moderators. Technicians who have read enough of my posts will probably make the connection if I ever meet them in person, anyway.

Nicely put James.

I would suggest Beethoven checks out the official Kawai regulation spec, which, IMHO is about the best and most comprehensive free instruction a tech can get:http://www.kawaius-tsd.com/PDF/Regulation%20GP-English.pdf. Thank you Kawai for sharing this technical info with us.

Beethoven, only a maybe, but Kawai pianos have a softer tone than many US pianos and other Asian pianos, thereby the softer tone (less output to input) can give you the impression of a heavier touch. Have you actually weighed the Kawai actions you say are heavy? Because, correctly regulated, they should behave similarly to a correctly regulated Yamaha or Steinway.

Regarding the benefits of an 'inert'composite action, the Kawai or WNG actions may well be less susceptible to humidity fluctuations. However, the 'composite' action stack is sitting on a foundation of wooden keyframe and a wooden keybed and as these wooden components move with humidity fluctuations, this in turn affects the general action regulation. (You only need give the domes a slight twist to make major changes to the key depth and key height - humidity does this free of charge.) So until other important wooden components such as keyframe, keybed, soundboard, bridges and tuning plank could ever(?) be made from composites, there is little benefit in fitting composite action parts.

No it wasn't.



I know how to do all this, so other than using it as a checklist, I'm not really sure how it would help me, to be honest. This doesn't actually teach how to do any of those things, and I can't imagine that anything could, other than by learning from a technician and practicing.



It's easy to distinguish the difference between a soft tone and a heavy action.



Some.



I've played everything from Yamahas to Steinways and Boesendorfers with wildly different touch characteristics within their respective brands. Why is the possibility of this happening with Kawai so shocking?



Don't tell this to Kawai or WNG. They might want their R&D money back.

Again, if you haven't worked with either the WNG or the Kawai M-III parts, how can you state that one is "probably superior?"




Saying "However, I think Kawai's are usually very dissatisfying to play because they're sluggish" pretty much defines the word denigration. It is different than just saying "I don't like the Kawai action" and it is the main reason why I bothered signing in to post on this thread in the first place.

You are a frequent poster here, and people come on these forums looking for advice. Pianos are complicated and the search to buy one can be arduous and frustrating. Most buyers (and pianists) know very little about the technical aspects of the instrument. Everything you say about a brand or a feature has the chance to influence someone one way or the other. Are you getting my point? We all need to be responsible with our words.

I stand behind everything I wrote in my other post.

Hi Chris,

First, I always enjoy your posts and I do not disagree with your responses until this last statement.

While you have a point in that pianos are ever changing beasts because of the nature of their construction, the composite action parts have been a boon on a couple of fronts.

1) Today's WNG action with hard bushings is absolutely less effected by climactic changes than a standard new action, particularly in the initial settling in period. We have had successful projects placed in recording studios, teaching studios, and schools using WNG. Some of these folks, particularly Front Row Seat Productions make their living based on the performance of their facilities. This was not a quick decision for any of these people.

2) The WNG allows rebuilders to choose sub-components and literally design the correct dimensions based on either an original design or a redesigned action.

I will be the first to admit that there is no perfect solution out there, but simply dismissing this technology seems akin to thinking that since I cannot control what diseases and chronic issues my family is prone to, I might as well not do anything that might improve my chances, like controlling diet and exercise, etc.

My 2 cents,

By the way, great thread all!

James, you ain't just another cool jazzer. (But I knew that already)

Beethoven:

You say that you have a bias toward lighter actions, yet find actions that are too heavey to you as needing re-design. In fact, you find most pianos needing lighter actions. I don't hear that complaint from others.

I think you need to reconsider your subjectivity on this and realize that the problem is that pianos manufacturing standards are heavier than you prefer.

The ability to adjust the action geometry afforded by the WSG action is clearly an advantage, but only in rebuilding situations.

this is a great thread in an informational kind of way.

Beethoven

Please weigh all the actions you say are heavy and let us know what the down and return weights are. Kawai's engineering is excellent and if you have followed their spec reg and the weights are within Kawai's parameters yet you think they're heavy, then we have an interesting discussion.

Rich

I love you too!

I was a little short sighted in my comment that there is little benefit in fitting composite action parts as I based my view on that of a new piano retailer, ie I didn't even consider the matter from that of a rebuilder, so I take your point.

When I used to sell new Kawais even before the composite actions were introduced - and to this day with new Yamaha - I never had to recentre any Kawai or Yamaha piano. Maybe it's because the climate in the UK doesn't have such high humidity swings as in the US.... Whatever the reason, a well engineered action made with treated quality cloth centres and well seasoned wood is, to continue your medical analogy, something not to be sneezed at.

Chris, as much as I'd love to do that, I'm currently about 1000 miles away from said pianos.

Steve, while I do acknowledge this bias, I was not the only pianist or technician to think that these particular pianos were somewhat heavier than normal.

In my original post, I stated that it was my impression. As a pianist, I definitely prefer the touch characteristics of WNG actions I've played. As a technician, I've held the WNG parts in my hand and they look to be very high quality (not that Kawai's aren't), however, I could very well end up rebuilding an action with these parts in the future and hate them. That's why I said it was an impression. Your persistence on this is starting to get ridiculous.

Also, I have worked on the M-III, just not the most recent version, the M-III Ninja with the "Phenolic Stablizers". In other threads on PW, there seems to be little dissent with the notion that older Kawai actions, at least, are heavier.





No, it's not. Denigration more or less implies a sinister connotation, akin to libel. What I said is really just a criticism based on my experiences. Anyone with decent reading comprehension can make the distinction between what ultimately is an opinion, and a fact.

One possible advantage of composite actions that hasn't been mentioned is the potential for a lower cost. Wooden action parts are machined, and composite parts are molded. One family mold could pop out all the parts needed for one note, for example. Some post machining would be required, of course. Total cost is a combination of materials, time, processing, labor, and so on, so it would be difficult to make a definitive statement without having the complete picture. It is interesting to note that molded plastic is extensively used in most very low cost consumer items. I could imagine a highly automated process for making composite actions--all you'd need is enough volume to pay for the tooling.

Two years? Wow.



Well, not to worry. Now that you are no longer a school boy, you'll be out in the world and finally getting a true education. You'll look back at some of the comments you made here and wonder what you were thinking.

At least that's how it worked for me. :-)

Forgive me, but I am unsure if you're being sarcastic or not. I kind of feel like you probably are, but I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.



I frankly don't even really know how to respond to this. What makes you think that I didn't get a true education? True, the ivory tower inevitably shields most people from the "real world" to a degree, including myself, I considered it a valuable experience. I got to see and do things, and meet people that I probably wouldn't have if I entered the "real world" after high school.

As for me potentially regretting various comments I've made on here in the future, I think everyone here has said things that they regret in one way or another. I'm sure I've said my fair share, and probably haven't always been as courteous as I should have been, but we all have our moments.

I don't pretend to be the absolute authority on all things piano related. However, the implication in this thread that I don't know what I'm talking about is absurd, and doesn't do anyone much good except, perhaps, to stroke a few egos. Let's all move on, shall we?

I watched this Kawai video on "Making a Grand Piano". If you scan through it, there is a part showing how they put the M3 action together. It is mostly done by machine, but it seems some hand-made adjustments are required.





I am just curious are the WNG actions put together by machines or more hands on oriented, since they are mostly used in restored pianos. It seems Kawai parts are made, then pieced together separately. Interesting.

Woah, neat! Thanks for sharing that, Aliwally!


I would guess that the WNG parts involve some sort of automated process, but are assembled into the pianos by hand at M&H and the small shops that use it for rebuilding. I guess Petrof is also using WNG in its Monsoon STEEL piano that we're talking about in another thread.

No problem, I thought it was pretty neat too. My only thing about seeing something like this makes me think that a consumer grade piano or (even mass produced professional grade piano, not all). Don't get treated like this, especially the lower-end pianos whether Grand or Upright.

Hey Chris,

I agree - Kawai did a beautiful job with these tech manuals. The photos are superb and I would think that the majority of technicians would be able to glean some very useful information from them.

Hey Rich, hope it's cooler in Philly than it is here. Yuck!