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#1728394 - 08/07/11 06:10 PM Crash Course through Sonar 7 Producer and ASIO4ALL
PianoMan1990 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 36
Loc: Chuluota, Florida
Here is a quick video quickly going through some of the basics in setting up Sonar 7 with your digital piano, how to record what you play, and how to export it as an mp3 or other format. Also I go over how to start up ASIO4ALL audio driver and use it to give you zero latency when playing. Enjoy.

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#1728445 - 08/07/11 07:34 PM Re: Crash Course through Sonar 7 Producer and ASIO4ALL [Re: PianoMan1990]
Pianero Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/15/11
Posts: 19
thanks for the video man, but setting the buffer in 512 really you get zero latency?

you must have a great cpu, in my sempron 3200+ i have the buffer of the asio4all in 144, and if i play a bach invention that contains many notes, i can feel that there's still latency and it's very annoying to play like this frown

i'm now in the struggle of what will be better to buy to solve this latency, if a good CPU or a sound card that supports asio drivers

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#1728473 - 08/07/11 08:20 PM Re: Crash Course through Sonar 7 Producer and ASIO4ALL [Re: PianoMan1990]
PianoMan1990 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 36
Loc: Chuluota, Florida
Yeah I really have zero latency. Like I said in the video I have 1ms input and 16ms output. Completely undetectable by me. As soon as I hit the note its coming out my speakers or headphones. I am running dual core 1.83ghz proccesors in windows 7 64 bit ultimate edition with 3gb of RAM. I fix computers for a living but I don't remember having to tweak anything special to get my latency to next to nothing. I am running REaltech HD Audio sound card if that makes a difference. Here is a video I did in another section that shows you my latency numbers. Its in reason 5 but it carries over because no matter what DAW I have used i have no latency that I can detect at all.
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#1728476 - 08/07/11 08:24 PM Re: Crash Course through Sonar 7 Producer and ASIO4ALL [Re: PianoMan1990]
PianoMan1990 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 36
Loc: Chuluota, Florida
Ill take a video when I get home tonight on my phone showing that when I play there is no latency between me depressing the keys and the sound coming out. Maybe my laptop is just better equipped to do all of this. Not knowing the rest of your system specs to compare to mine I dont know. Maybe you can post them and Ill take a look to see what the weak point is in your system that could be upgraded to improve your latency issues.
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#1728513 - 08/07/11 09:34 PM Re: Crash Course through Sonar 7 Producer and ASIO4ALL [Re: PianoMan1990]
Pianero Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/15/11
Posts: 19
Originally Posted By: PianoMan1990
Ill take a video when I get home tonight on my phone showing that when I play there is no latency between me depressing the keys and the sound coming out. Maybe my laptop is just better equipped to do all of this. Not knowing the rest of your system specs to compare to mine I dont know. Maybe you can post them and Ill take a look to see what the weak point is in your system that could be upgraded to improve your latency issues.


thanks for your time grin


my pc is:

sempron 3200+ (1800 mhz), 2 GB ram, HD Western Digital WD5000AAKS-00A7B2, creative soundblaster pci 64, windows xp


and right now i have an horrible kawai wk50 (jhahaha) conected via midi to the sound card with a cable like this:


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#1728562 - 08/07/11 11:03 PM Re: Crash Course through Sonar 7 Producer and ASIO4ALL [Re: PianoMan1990]
PianoMan1990 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 36
Loc: Chuluota, Florida
OK so I made a quick video of me playing to show you that i have no latency at these settings. As soon as its done processing Ill post it here. Im running Dual Core at 1.83 Ghz each processor. Is yours single core? Also USB to MIDI is what I use I dont plug directly into my sound card. Im running all of this on a laptop as well. Anyways vid should be done soon and youll be able to hear and see what Im talking about smile



Edited by PianoMan1990 (08/07/11 11:14 PM)
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#1728580 - 08/07/11 11:25 PM Re: Crash Course through Sonar 7 Producer and ASIO4ALL [Re: PianoMan1990]
Hideki Matsui Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 786
I have to say, I just bought a MacBook and am really surprised that I detect no latency. It has me rethinking my generally negative view of software pianos.
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Shigeru Kawai SK5
Vintage Vibe 64
Roland LX-15e
Roland Jupiter 80

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#1728585 - 08/07/11 11:33 PM Re: Crash Course through Sonar 7 Producer and ASIO4ALL [Re: PianoMan1990]
PianoMan1990 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 36
Loc: Chuluota, Florida
If done properly like I have done it here they are amazing! Especially when you get some good VSTi's installed and running. I use TruePiano's and a few others but I must say with the proper equipment and a little luck you can get everything set up without latency issues and really go to town on these DP's.
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#1728595 - 08/08/11 12:15 AM Re: Crash Course through Sonar 7 Producer and ASIO4ALL [Re: PianoMan1990]
Hideki Matsui Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 786
I haven't decided which piano program I want on the Mac, but I have Logic Studio with Omnisphere and Razor installed. All running seamlessly via a Novation SL MK 2.
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Shigeru Kawai SK5
Vintage Vibe 64
Roland LX-15e
Roland Jupiter 80

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#1728609 - 08/08/11 12:40 AM Re: Crash Course through Sonar 7 Producer and ASIO4ALL [Re: PianoMan1990]
PianoMan1990 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 36
Loc: Chuluota, Florida
very nice!!!!!! I am more of a PC guy always have been but MAC seem to have less issues when running DAW's and music equipment. But they also generally have more hardware in them to do that like faster cpu's more ram etc. MAC's have always seemed to have more high end gear in them. Whatever you choose Im sure its gonna be great having a DP around to record on as well as any acoustics smile
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http://www.PBSWebDesign.com/Piano

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#1728639 - 08/08/11 02:19 AM Re: Crash Course through Sonar 7 Producer and ASIO4ALL [Re: PianoMan1990]
Pianero Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/15/11
Posts: 19
Originally Posted By: PianoMan1990
OK so I made a quick video of me playing to show you that i have no latency at these settings. As soon as its done processing Ill post it here. Im running Dual Core at 1.83 Ghz each processor. Is yours single core? Also USB to MIDI is what I use I dont plug directly into my sound card. Im running all of this on a laptop as well. Anyways vid should be done soon and youll be able to hear and see what Im talking about smile



great, then seeing this, my problem i assume is that because of my cpu is single core... also i will try to get a midi/usb cable

thanksss

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#1728670 - 08/08/11 06:47 AM The quest for low latency... [Re: Pianero]
Per Baekgaard Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/21/11
Posts: 53
Loc: Danmark
First, I think the buffer settings in ASIO4ALL is not the only parameter that impacts latency. The actual hardware (your soundcard) can also add to this, so even if one person's buffer of 144 samples at, say, 44.1 kHz, would yield a theoretical minimum latency of 3.3 mS (assuming single-buffering), it might be more than this for some other person's hardware. You have to measure it in order to actually detect the real latency. You may be surprised, as I have been...

Secondly, there is a difference between what small levels we can detect initially and what we actually very quickly adjust to.

When I started playing my first board, a JV-80, I initially tried to avoid using it in performance mode as it had a perceptible delay compared to simple play mode... I even talked to Roland about this, but never met anyone else that had noticed this problem. Also today, when playing one keyboard via MIDI, I can still notice a slight "hesitation" compared to when I use the built-in sounds of the same keyboard.

However, in reality, this has never been a problem for me in real life situations. I just tell myself to forget and after a few minutes, I have adjusted to the playing.

Thirdly, you could validly ask what is the optimal latency.

Many would say 0 mS, but that is not so and not what you're used to...

Research shows that a real piano has a latency difference of 30mS or more between playing piano (quietly) and staccato forte notes (1); some quote a slightly later version of this work as reaching a conclusion of 30mS latency for staccato forte notes and 100mS for piano notes (2). My current DP in fact has a setting that can be used to impact how the delay varies with the playing levels, to mimic a real piano.

Further, sound travels at roughly 1/3 a meter pr. mS. In a symphony orchestra setting, this means there will be delays of as much as 40 mS between members of the orchestra. If your speaker is 2 meters away, there is already a latency of 6 mS, so instead of reducing your PC latency, one could use headphones instead, at least in the studio?

Lastly, too short latency impacts us negatively... Research (3) have shown an optimal latency from one player to the next to be around 11.5 mS. If less than that, we tend to speed up instead of playing in sync.

We are very good at keeping time. Trained people can probably keep a steady rhythm within a 4mS "window"; some even less. But we can adapt to a wide range of delays, and other research seems to suggest that the range of -25mS to +42mS is perceived by most as "simultaneous".

If you're also a bass player, remember that to even detect the pitch of a low A (110 Hz) likely require at least 10mS before even a full cycle has been produced.

So, as musicians, and in practical terms, I would say that latencies less than 20 mS is something most of us can unconsciously adopt to (unless you try to think too hard of it). I'm probably quite sensitive to latencies myself, but have learned that the benefits of trying to get to 3mS is not worth the pain; I can play well in time with latencies of 10mS or more.

Now, the untold story is jitter... which is the random variations in latency. It is also related to the buffer size. As you produce sound, it gets stored to a buffer. When that buffer is full, it is sent to be output. If you happen to create a sound right as the buffer is about to be filled, you will have a maximum delay of one buffer. If it happens right as you're about to fill the last part of the buffer, there is virtually no (extra) delay. So your buffer setting probably becomes equal to the jitter -- and that should in practice be kept as low as possible. The results of (2) suggest they should be kept less than 6mS.

Apologies for the long and boring scientific approach here!


-- Per.

(1) http://www.speech.kth.se/prod/publications/files/qpsr/1988/1988_29_1_031-109.pdf
(2) http://www.ime.usp.br/~kon/papers/icmc04-latency.pdf
(3) http://ccrma.stanford.edu/groups/soundwire/publications/papers/chafe_ISMA2004.pdf
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Hornung & Møller Acoustic Grand
Roland RD-700NX, Nord Electro 3, Yamaha P150, Roland JV-80

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#1728759 - 08/08/11 10:56 AM Re: The quest for low latency... [Re: PianoMan1990]
PianoMan1990 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 36
Loc: Chuluota, Florida
Well I learn something new everyday! Thanks for that great and informative post! I am a nerd so I love learning about facts like these. Yeah a dual core would probably help you out pianero. Sonar has a meter to show what your processors are running at and both of mine never get above 15% when playing intensively.
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http://www.PBSWebDesign.com/Piano

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