Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5 >
Topic Options
#1729972 - 08/10/11 08:52 AM Scales Bootcamp
ShiroKuro Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3234
Loc: not in Japan anymore
My copy of Scales Bootcamp, by Philip Johnston, arrived and I started working with it yesterday.
Scales Boot Camp

I though it would be nice to have a thread here for people to share impressions and talk about how they're using it. I'm temporarily without a teacher, so I'm just starting at the beginning, A minor, and slowly doing the twists and so on, it seems like for easier scales I'll probably spend a week on them but for more difficult ones it will take more. We'll see how that prediction holds up!

Also, yesterday I used the Boot Camp book with the Palmer book
Palmer Complete Scales book

The Palmer book has all the chords, apes and cadences written out , which I need, so I don't think I'll want to stop using it, but the Johnston book's way of teaching the fingering and all the achievements are really helpful.

Other people please share your thoughts!
_________________________
Started piano June 1999. My recordings at Box.Net:
https://app.box.com/s/j4rgyhn72uvluemg1m6u




Top
(ads P/S)
Petrof Pianos

piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#1729991 - 08/10/11 10:07 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
KlinkKlonk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/19/09
Posts: 351
Scale Bootcamp, that's brilliant lol.

Top
#1731675 - 08/12/11 11:32 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
SAnnM AB-2001 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 2022
Loc: Canada
Shiro,

I loved the Practiceopedia so much I ordered the Scales Boot camp and also the Palmer book.... hurry up mail!! I'm at a point now where (perhaps because I'm not taking exams and my teacher doesn't push for it ).... I feel I need to become more fluent in scales and arpeggios etc.... hopefullly this will help..

I think and my piano buddy keeps telling me... that to be better at sightreading we need to be familiar with all the scales and chords and variations.... I'm finally beginning to believe her because my sightreading is pretty slow....
_________________________
It's the journey not the destination..

Top
#1731825 - 08/12/11 03:48 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: SAnnM AB-2001]
cubop Offline

Silver Supporter until Dec 28 2012


Registered: 12/17/10
Posts: 368
Loc: Norway
The book arrived today, so I have now joined the Bootcamp. That book makes you really want to practice them scales. It would have been fine to have more than the harmonic minor scales, but it should be easy to fill in the other two. In case anybody should need a good book on chords, the Mel Bay Pianochords uses almost the same color coded system as the Bootcamp. The book contains a lot of information, but is small enough to fit in any pocket.
I also bought an acoustic piano today, but that is another story.

Top
#1742418 - 08/29/11 02:00 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
Arctic_Mama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/09
Posts: 379
Loc: Alaska
I wanted to bump this thread up and ask how everyone is liking the book? I have been told to work on scales and thought this might be a solid resource, as I need a little more guidance than just notes on a page to be efficient at them (my fingering is where I stumble).

Any reviews from users?
_________________________
Starting over after a decade-long hiatus from playing!
Yamaha CLP320

Burgmuller - Inquietude

Top
#1742424 - 08/29/11 02:47 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
Dave B Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 1732
Loc: Philadelphia area
I'm curious as to just what information the books offer. A scale is a scale, no? Move it from key to key?

Top
#1742624 - 08/29/11 01:20 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
Arctic_Mama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/09
Posts: 379
Loc: Alaska
I was under the impression it was just a systematic approach (more of a curriculum than just scores, Czerny-style) with fingering hints. I discovered long ago that not all scales should be fingered the same way!).

I've been impressed by the other Johnston resources I've seen, and if this one is a fraction as helpful as his practice books I am hoping to get a lot out of it smile
_________________________
Starting over after a decade-long hiatus from playing!
Yamaha CLP320

Burgmuller - Inquietude

Top
#1742627 - 08/29/11 01:31 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: Dave B]
Sedona Drum Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/02/11
Posts: 32
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Originally Posted By: Dave B
I'm curious as to just what information the books offer. A scale is a scale, no? Move it from key to key?

Go to the links that ShiroKuro provides, Dave. There are short videos that explain the book and its techniques.

It looks interesting and seems to provide structure, something important to me. I may give it a try.

Top
#1742635 - 08/29/11 01:44 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: cubop]
PianoStudent88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 2975
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: cubop
It would have been fine to have more than the harmonic minor scales, but it should be easy to fill in the other two.

Fingering for natural vs. harmonic vs. melodic minor scales sometimes differs from each other. I'll post the differences when I'm home again.

I use the Faber Achievement Skill Sheets 5 and 6 for scale fingerings.
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

Top
#1742639 - 08/29/11 01:52 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
PianoStudent88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 2975
Loc: Maine
For those of you working on this book, how does it differ for you from just working through scales in some systematic order that you decide?

A few orders are: circle of fifths through the sharps, then through the flats. Or trios based on black/white appearance of the I triad: F, C, G; D, A, E; Eb, Ab, Db; B, Bb, Gb. Or similarities of fingering: C, G, D, A, E; F; B, Db, Gb; Bb, Eb, Ab. This last is the order I'm using.

Fold minors in as desired; I'm doing them all after the majors.

What order does Scales Boot Camp use? Does it include skills besides parallel motion (e.g. contrary motion or pattern, cadences, arpeggios cross-hand or one-hand, others....)?

[ETA: I just read Sedona Drum's post more closely. I'll go look at the videos, which may answer my questions.)


Edited by PianoStudent88 (08/29/11 01:53 PM)
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

Top
#1742684 - 08/29/11 03:13 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
PianoStudent88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 2975
Loc: Maine
OK, I viewed the videos and I'm convinced. I ordered a copy. (Also ordered Practiceopedia while I was there: it looked like it will have some techniques to help with my persistent practice problem, which is having one or two passages in every piece that I consistently fumble-finger no matter what I do.)

I already knew the 123/1234 system, but the visual highlighting of the scale presentation has me thinking I will highlight my Achievement Skill Sheets of scales, to help me see the 123/1234 patterns of similar scales clearer, and of major and their related (either parallel or relative) minor scales.

What really convinced me to buy is that, although I could in principle round up a cartload of different ways to practice scales, I figure I'll save time by getting a trainload all in one place in the Scales Boot Camp.

I want to be sure I practice these carefully and not just blow through to achieve a checkmark for a poorly done rendition.
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

Top
#1743124 - 08/30/11 08:44 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
PianoPraise Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/05/11
Posts: 72
I just ordered my copy.

I hope it doesn't take too long to get.
_________________________
Started lessons 03/22/11

Top
#1743138 - 08/30/11 09:33 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
PianoStudent88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 2975
Loc: Maine
Piano Praise, I hear you! I was so eager for my copy that I did what I never do, which is pay extra for shipping to get it here by Priority instead of Parcel Post. Here's to scales!
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

Top
#1743139 - 08/30/11 09:36 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
PianoStudent88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 2975
Loc: Maine
As promised, here are the differences in minor key fingering. The keys that start on a white key have the same fingering in major and all three minors. The keys that start on a black key have different fingering from the parallel major in either the LH or RH, but not both.

Bb: LH differs.
major: 321 4321
minor: 21 321 43

Eb: LH differs
major: 321 4321
minor: 21 4321 3

Ab: LH differs
Ab major: 321 4321
G# natural minor: 321 321 4
G# harmonic minor: 321 4321 (same as major)
G# melodic minor ascending: 321 4321 (same as major and harmonic minor)
G# melodic minor descending: 34 123 12 (same as natural minor)

Db: RH differs
Db major: 23 1234 1
C# natural and harmonic minor: 34 123 12
C# melodic minor ascending: 23 1234 1 (same as major)
C# melodic minor descending: 21 4321 3 (same as melodic ascending), OR 321 321 4 (same as natural and harmonic minor).

Gb: RH differs
Gb major: 234 123 1
F# natural and harmonic minor: 34 123 12
F# melodic minor ascending: 23 1234 1
F# melodic minor descending: 21 4321 3 (same as melodic ascending), OR 321 321 4 (same as natural and harmonic minor).

(I'm trying to work out a pattern for these changes. For example, maybe the fingering matches key for key the relative minor? Or some other pattern to explain the changes. I'd love to hear if anyone else has an overarching pattern.)


Edited by PianoStudent88 (08/30/11 09:38 AM)
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

Top
#1743172 - 08/30/11 11:00 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
samasap Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/10
Posts: 607
Loc: UK
I like the sound of that and may adapt my scales I teach people and use that name!

Top
#1743257 - 08/30/11 01:47 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
Arctic_Mama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/09
Posts: 379
Loc: Alaska
Pianostudent88, I honestly think that with some of those the changes just need to be memorized. There's no system or reason for them except convenience/practicality. If there's an overarching system, I haven't heard of it!
_________________________
Starting over after a decade-long hiatus from playing!
Yamaha CLP320

Burgmuller - Inquietude

Top
#1743522 - 08/30/11 10:18 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
PianoStudent88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 2975
Loc: Maine
Arctic_Mama, what, no system? Eeeek! smile

I discovered at my lesson today that there's more to playing in a key than just knowing the scale. I also need to be able to connect the visual appearance of the notes with which ones should be sharped or flatted. Oh, for a book of pieces in all keys, major and minor, to practice this. Wait, there is such a book. Oh, to have the skills to play WTC.

Are there any other collections in all keys like WTC, but easier?
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

Top
#1743685 - 08/31/11 08:09 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
GlassLove Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/22/10
Posts: 769
Loc: Michigan
Yes, there are collections easier than WTC written in all major and minor keys.

Have you every played Robert Vandall's preludes? Some of the early ones are really quite easy. Alfred publishes all 24 in one collection. You can also buy them in three separate volumes (with volume 1 containing the easiest pieces of the collection). They are really beautiful pieces too!! smile
_________________________
Christine











Top
#1743823 - 08/31/11 12:53 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: PianoStudent88]
PianoPraise Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/05/11
Posts: 72
PianoStudent88

I paid for Priority too, but it was only 5 cent more. LOL


Edited by PianoPraise (08/31/11 12:54 PM)
Edit Reason: added who I replied to
_________________________
Started lessons 03/22/11

Top
#1743828 - 08/31/11 01:00 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: PianoPraise]
Andy Platt Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 2334
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: PianoPraise
PianoStudent88

I paid for Priority too, but it was only 5 cent more. LOL


Shame I didn't notice that option when I bought Practiceopedia. It took 8 days for USPS to get it from Northern PA to Northern VA. That's probably slower than a package would have taken in the 18th century!!!
_________________________
  • Liszt - Liebestrume No. 3, S541
  • Bartk - Romanian Folk Dances, Sz. 56
    My Hungarian Period wink

Kawai K3

Top
#1743885 - 08/31/11 02:24 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
Arctic_Mama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/09
Posts: 379
Loc: Alaska
That's downright speedy! Up here to Alaska the packages sent by standard post either come in three to five days (when they end up on a plane) or two to three WEEKS (if they get stuck on the barge). Priority is the only way to guarantee delivery inside a week or so, short of second day air.

One of the very few downsides of living up here.

I'll be putting my in order for Practiceopedia and Scales Bootcamp this Friday, after pay day. I'm excited!
_________________________
Starting over after a decade-long hiatus from playing!
Yamaha CLP320

Burgmuller - Inquietude

Top
#1743889 - 08/31/11 02:35 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
PianoStudent88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 2975
Loc: Maine
GlassLove, thanks for the suggestion. I'll get the Vandall Preludes. Give my music store a reason to love me again, now that I've switched lessons from the store to my teacher's home wink.

PianoPraise, priority was over $2 more expensive for me. For 5 cents it would have been a no-brainer. I'm hoping it will get here before the weekend, and I can take it on my Labor Day trip with me.

I'm eyeing The Practice Revolution too, because for whatever reason I'm completely fascinated by materials for teachers. But at $30, and assuming it's sort of the teacher's version (how to motivate and guide others) of Practiceopedia (how to motivate and guide yourself), I'm resisting for now.

Heck, I even want to get the Promoting Your Teaching Studio book too, and I'm ages away from being a teacher. (My idea would be to play well enough and take up piano teaching in retirement. I have no idea why this is my dream right now, but there it is.) But that's another $30 it's hard to justify spending while I'm only a student.
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

Top
#1743910 - 08/31/11 03:26 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: PianoStudent88]
Sedona Drum Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/02/11
Posts: 32
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88

(My idea would be to play well enough and take up piano teaching in retirement. I have no idea why this is my dream right now, but there it is.)


It's a nice one.

Top
#1743943 - 08/31/11 04:27 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: Sedona Drum]
Arctic_Mama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/09
Posts: 379
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By: Sedona Drum
Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88

(My idea would be to play well enough and take up piano teaching in retirement. I have no idea why this is my dream right now, but there it is.)


It's a nice one.


+1!

That's a great idea to aspire to. And it will keep your brain engaged during retirement, which is really critical for continued mental acuity and physical health. There can never be enough passionate piano teachers smile
_________________________
Starting over after a decade-long hiatus from playing!
Yamaha CLP320

Burgmuller - Inquietude

Top
#1746720 - 09/05/11 08:00 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
PianoPraise Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/05/11
Posts: 72
My copy arrived on Saturday. I started with the C Major scale, It will probably take me a while to get through. I have only been playing since 03/22/11.
_________________________
Started lessons 03/22/11

Top
#1749931 - 09/10/11 12:36 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
Arctic_Mama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/09
Posts: 379
Loc: Alaska
I have to bump this thread with a hearty recommendation. My Scales Bootcamp finally came and it is PHENOMENAL! Clever, consistent, thoughtfully constructed and well written. This is sucker is THE best and easiest systematic approach to scales I have seen.

I am working through it and have nothing but glowing reviews. I'll report back as I progress more with it, but I can already tell it was money well spent.

Bravo, Mr. Johnston.
_________________________
Starting over after a decade-long hiatus from playing!
Yamaha CLP320

Burgmuller - Inquietude

Top
#1750786 - 09/11/11 03:29 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
PianoStudent88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 2975
Loc: Maine
Back from my trip, to be greeted by Scales Boot Camp waiting on my doorstep. I'm working on the first few tickmarks on the scales in order of difficulty. Except I think Db and Gb are easier than Bb and Eb (Johnston thinks the reverse), but I guess I have to confront Bb and Eb sometime, so maybe I'll use Johnston's order for those anyway.

I've completed the 24 Hour ScaleStorm (30 Achievements in one day) and am working on the 7 Day ScaleStorm (150 Achievements earned in one week). I figure at the start with the easier scales and achievements gives me the best chance to earn this Bonus. (The Bonus Achievements are on page 94.)

I'd been learning the scales 1 octave before, and fortunately seem to have just now gotten skilled enough that I can easily up the ante to Johnston's 2 octaves. 4 octaves is still a challenge: I lose my way between sets of 3 and sets of 4 fingers.
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

Top
#1750879 - 09/11/11 07:35 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
Arctic_Mama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/09
Posts: 379
Loc: Alaska
I'm working through it one scale at a time, in order. So right now it is a minor and I ws able to get to 10 in a row, both hands, in about an hour yesterday. All the rhythm, articulation, and speed challenges are on the docket for tomorrow and hopefully I can check that one off and move onto A Major.

Good stuff smile. I love the flexibility of how we can use the book, too... As it suits us!


Edited by Arctic_Mama (09/11/11 07:35 PM)
_________________________
Starting over after a decade-long hiatus from playing!
Yamaha CLP320

Burgmuller - Inquietude

Top
#1751195 - 09/12/11 09:04 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: Arctic_Mama]
PianoPraise Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/05/11
Posts: 72
PianoStudent88 and Artic_Mama,

How long have you been playing?

I started on the C Major scale, but I have only been able to do the first playthrough on Left, Right, then together, and the memory part of the Left and Rights, not together yet.

My lessons have not included scales at this point, I have added these on my own. I haven't spent a lot of time on the book because by the time I spend time on my assignments, I just don't take the time for the scales.
_________________________
Started lessons 03/22/11

Top
#1751246 - 09/12/11 10:17 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: PianoPraise]
Dulcetta Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/11/11
Posts: 75
Loc: U.K.
I've just ordered a copy this morning.
I have the ABRSM complete manual of scales, which I intend using as a starting point for learning to play piano. This looks like a good motivational book to accompany it. I'm in the UK so it will probably take a few weeks though.
_________________________
It will be happened; it shall be going to be happening; it will be was an event that could will have been taken place in the future. Simple as that.

Top
#1751252 - 09/12/11 10:29 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: PianoPraise]
PianoStudent88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 2975
Loc: Maine
Hi PianoPraise, I've been playing for a while: early intermediate, Piano Adventures level 3A. I've been working on scales (one octave) for a few months now, which is why I could hit the ground running in the Scales BootCamp. When I started out though in my own work on scales, I had to go very slowly and it took a while for the hands-together C major scale to "click." Persist, it will come.
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

Top
#1751309 - 09/12/11 12:38 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: PianoPraise]
Arctic_Mama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/09
Posts: 379
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By: PianoPraise
PianoStudent88 and Artic_Mama,

How long have you been playing?

I started on the C Major scale, but I have only been able to do the first playthrough on Left, Right, then together, and the memory part of the Left and Rights, not together yet.

My lessons have not included scales at this point, I have added these on my own. I haven't spent a lot of time on the book because by the time I spend time on my assignments, I just don't take the time for the scales.



I've been playing for about six months this go around, and I played several years as a child. I'm putting my pieces on the back burner for a few weeks while I work through this. I'm also an intermediate student.


Edited by Arctic_Mama (09/12/11 12:40 PM)
_________________________
Starting over after a decade-long hiatus from playing!
Yamaha CLP320

Burgmuller - Inquietude

Top
#1752892 - 09/15/11 10:49 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: Arctic_Mama]
cubop Offline

Silver Supporter until Dec 28 2012


Registered: 12/17/10
Posts: 368
Loc: Norway
I have had Bootcamp for a while now, and it is a pleasure to use. But today I got another book, which is a fine companion and continuation to Bootcamp: Willard Palmer, The Complete Book of Scales, Chords, Arpeggios and Cadences.
ShiroKuro has a link to it in the first post in this thread, but it deserves to be mentioned again. The book gives all three variants of the minor scales, and too much useful information to mention here. Everything more clearly explained than I have seen in any other book on this subject.
Definitely a book that makes life easier for anybody learning to play the piano.

Top
#1753039 - 09/15/11 03:45 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
Arctic_Mama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/09
Posts: 379
Loc: Alaska
Yes, I've heard great things about Palmer's book as well. It has been on my wish list for a few months smile
_________________________
Starting over after a decade-long hiatus from playing!
Yamaha CLP320

Burgmuller - Inquietude

Top
#1755063 - 09/19/11 12:10 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
PianoStudent88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 2975
Loc: Maine
I've finished the 7-day Scale Storm (150 ticks in a week), gotten ten scales to Trainee, and notched my first two Intermediates.

When doing Tabletop scales, I find that HT is much harder than HS. In fact, I'm going to have to completely dissect and rebuild HT before I can do it Tabletop.

I'm enjoying the book immensely.
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

Top
#1755075 - 09/19/11 12:37 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
Arctic_Mama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/09
Posts: 379
Loc: Alaska
Good going!
_________________________
Starting over after a decade-long hiatus from playing!
Yamaha CLP320

Burgmuller - Inquietude

Top
#1756885 - 09/21/11 08:05 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
Arctic_Mama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/09
Posts: 379
Loc: Alaska
Woohoo! Got to Master level on A Maj to add to a min (harmonic). I'm holding off on the twists until later, but I am so excited that when I get to my tempo challenges I have to force myself to play the scale SLOWLY enough to qualify, as I can easily make it in more than 4 beats per tick at 140.

Today I was focusing on my tone and tension through the tempo challenges and applying some wonderful visuals from our Arioso's blog (play through the keys as though dipping fingers into a bowl of molasses) and between her tip and my own lack of tension I actually found myself getting sleepy in the middle of my scale blush


Good stuff, this book. The longer I work in it, the more highly I recommend it!
_________________________
Starting over after a decade-long hiatus from playing!
Yamaha CLP320

Burgmuller - Inquietude

Top
#1756944 - 09/21/11 10:01 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: Arctic_Mama]
Lain Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/14/11
Posts: 613
Originally Posted By: Arctic_Mama
Woohoo! Got to Master level on A Maj to add to a min (harmonic). I'm holding off on the twists until later, but I am so excited that when I get to my tempo challenges I have to force myself to play the scale SLOWLY enough to qualify, as I can easily make it in more than 4 beats per tick at 140.

Today I was focusing on my tone and tension through the tempo challenges and applying some wonderful visuals from our Arioso's blog (play through the keys as though dipping fingers into a bowl of molasses) and between her tip and my own lack of tension I actually found myself getting sleepy in the middle of my scale blush


Good stuff, this book. The longer I work in it, the more highly I recommend it!


Every time I come back to this thread, I'm tempted to get a copy of the book too. All I have is Hanon...
_________________________
"You are the music while the music lasts" - T.S. Eliot

Top
#1756960 - 09/21/11 10:31 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
Arctic_Mama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/09
Posts: 379
Loc: Alaska
I much prefer it to my Czerny, at least. It is different - systematic, simple, thorough. It's not pretending to be an etude or sheet music, but the exercises are also not the type that will cause repetitive stress or strain. It's scales and their fingering, put in a format of a challenge with various creative ways to practice them to help them be remembered and keep the pianist from getting bored with them. There's nothing revolutionary (other than that his explanations are very clear and easy to remember) but it makes scales practice a lot less boring.

This and Practiceopedia are both some of the better piano investments I have made. Very well written, worth every penny. I don't think you'll be sorry if you order it, but don't expect something it isn't - this isn't a magical method or secret trick, so much as a smarter and more intuitive use of the same time we'd spend on scales, otherwise.
_________________________
Starting over after a decade-long hiatus from playing!
Yamaha CLP320

Burgmuller - Inquietude

Top
#1756973 - 09/21/11 10:53 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: Arctic_Mama]
Lain Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/14/11
Posts: 613
Originally Posted By: Arctic_Mama
I much prefer it to my Czerny, at least. It is different - systematic, simple, thorough. It's not pretending to be an etude or sheet music, but the exercises are also not the type that will cause repetitive stress or strain. It's scales and their fingering, put in a format of a challenge with various creative ways to practice them to help them be remembered and keep the pianist from getting bored with them. There's nothing revolutionary (other than that his explanations are very clear and easy to remember) but it makes scales practice a lot less boring.

This and Practiceopedia are both some of the better piano investments I have made. Very well written, worth every penny. I don't think you'll be sorry if you order it, but don't expect something it isn't - this isn't a magical method or secret trick, so much as a smarter and more intuitive use of the same time we'd spend on scales, otherwise.


Hey, thanks for the additional details. When I find myself bored with Hanon and Czerny, I will definitely get this book. Thanks.
_________________________
"You are the music while the music lasts" - T.S. Eliot

Top
#1756976 - 09/21/11 10:57 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
Arctic_Mama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/09
Posts: 379
Loc: Alaska
I'm just competitive enough that, say, trying to do ten perfect scales in a row with no errors or changing up the dynamics and tempo distracts me from the clock. A shocking amount of time can pass when you're trying to pass just *one more* achievement wink
_________________________
Starting over after a decade-long hiatus from playing!
Yamaha CLP320

Burgmuller - Inquietude

Top
#1756977 - 09/21/11 10:59 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: Arctic_Mama]
Lain Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/14/11
Posts: 613
Originally Posted By: Arctic_Mama
I'm just competitive enough that, say, trying to do ten perfect scales in a row with no errors or changing up the dynamics and tempo distracts me from the clock. A shocking amount of time can pass when you're trying to pass just *one more* achievement wink


You can even collect achievements while practicing?! (Thinking about online flash games... grin)
_________________________
"You are the music while the music lasts" - T.S. Eliot

Top
#1756980 - 09/21/11 11:04 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
Arctic_Mama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/09
Posts: 379
Loc: Alaska
It is based off of computer games, actually. Each scale begins with a diagram of the fingering, then a list of ways to practice it to earn achievement tick marks and levels of skill. It goes from completely basic to brain meltingly tricky, depending on how far you want to go (and how well you want to learn it, if you do them all you know the scale for life, literally. You HAVE to know it well to do some of the twists).

It is simple, necessary, logical scales practice, but done in such a way that I WANT to keep practicing and perfecting them. That is almost unheard of, for me. You can play them casually or do as I am - an intensive study course. It is easily modifiable to however you want to practice them.
_________________________
Starting over after a decade-long hiatus from playing!
Yamaha CLP320

Burgmuller - Inquietude

Top
#1756981 - 09/21/11 11:08 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: Arctic_Mama]
Lain Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/14/11
Posts: 613
Originally Posted By: Arctic_Mama
It is based off of computer games, actually. Each scale begins with a diagram of the fingering, then a list of ways to practice it to earn achievement tick marks and levels of skill. It goes from completely basic to brain meltingly tricky, depending on how far you want to go (and how well you want to learn it, if you do them all you know the scale for life, literally. You HAVE to know it well to do some of the twists).

It is simple, necessary, logical scales practice, but done in such a way that I WANT to keep practicing and perfecting them. That is almost unheard of, for me. You can play them casually or do as I am - an intensive study course. It is easily modifiable to however you want to practice them.


I'm sold. I'll start saving money for the book.
_________________________
"You are the music while the music lasts" - T.S. Eliot

Top
#1756984 - 09/21/11 11:10 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
Arctic_Mama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/09
Posts: 379
Loc: Alaska
Yay! Let us know what you think of it when it arrives smile
_________________________
Starting over after a decade-long hiatus from playing!
Yamaha CLP320

Burgmuller - Inquietude

Top
#1756997 - 09/21/11 11:22 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
PianoStudent88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 2975
Loc: Maine
Arctic Mama, congratulations on your two Masters. I see you're taking the depth-first approach in contrast to my breadth-first approach.
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

Top
#1757063 - 09/22/11 01:58 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
Arctic_Mama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/09
Posts: 379
Loc: Alaska
Breadth doesn't work well for me, because I feel like I am relearning the same things over and over as I forget them, due to not knowing or understanding them well enough to begin with. I am terrible at survey studies! We probably learn differently, and I think it is a testament to Johnston's manual that two completely different approaches can be taken and still net wonderful results smile

_________________________
Starting over after a decade-long hiatus from playing!
Yamaha CLP320

Burgmuller - Inquietude

Top
#1757342 - 09/22/11 12:45 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: Arctic_Mama]
cubop Offline

Silver Supporter until Dec 28 2012


Registered: 12/17/10
Posts: 368
Loc: Norway
I am now working on C major thumb under legato playing, and going right to left right hand 3 to 4 is tricky getting up to reasonable speed. Smooth and precise transitions is difficult no matter how you play the scales, so I have found that it is smart to give lots of attention to that.

Top
#1757413 - 09/22/11 02:10 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
Arctic_Mama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/09
Posts: 379
Loc: Alaska
Do take a look at the thumb over method as well. Though I can do thumb unders like butter, even at speed, there is a certain logic to the thumb over method for almost all scale work, unless it is legato at an andante pace wink
_________________________
Starting over after a decade-long hiatus from playing!
Yamaha CLP320

Burgmuller - Inquietude

Top
#1757443 - 09/22/11 03:11 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: Arctic_Mama]
cubop Offline

Silver Supporter until Dec 28 2012


Registered: 12/17/10
Posts: 368
Loc: Norway
Arctic Mama, I do practice thumb over too, and dont have problems with that. But your fingers are probably in better shape than mine, and I am improving.
I just read your post about buying an acoustic, and I wonder if you have considered finding one used locally. I just bought a 90 year old upright in good condition at a nice price, and at least it sounds awfully much better than any DP I have tried. I got the best sounding piano in the shop, and saved about 10k against the next best.
Hope you will get a good piano no matter how you do it.

Top
#1757488 - 09/22/11 04:24 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
Arctic_Mama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/09
Posts: 379
Loc: Alaska
I don't mind buying one locally, used or new, but I absolutely love Walters in general and much of the local used inventory is junk that is warped, won't hold a tune, or has plate cracks and the like. Much of the new inventory is Japanese and Chinese uprights whose tone I am less than fond of, or grands I WILL look to buy one day, but won't fit in our current home. It is quite the conundrum wink

I am very happy with my digital right now and only really window shopping and planning budgetary stuff. I do keep an eye on my local Craiglist every week or two, though!
_________________________
Starting over after a decade-long hiatus from playing!
Yamaha CLP320

Burgmuller - Inquietude

Top
#1757640 - 09/22/11 07:49 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
Arctic_Mama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/09
Posts: 379
Loc: Alaska
Whew!

When he classes a sharp/b flat minor as a 'highest difficulty' scale, he isn't kidding! Contrary motion on that one is breaking my brain!
_________________________
Starting over after a decade-long hiatus from playing!
Yamaha CLP320

Burgmuller - Inquietude

Top
#1758996 - 09/25/11 02:59 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: Arctic_Mama]
Dulcetta Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/11/11
Posts: 75
Loc: U.K.
Mine was on the doormat when I came home from holiday yesterday, so that is less than two weeks to the UK and no custom charges, for a change. thumb

Not impressed with the daft angle of the written notes though......
_________________________
It will be happened; it shall be going to be happening; it will be was an event that could will have been taken place in the future. Simple as that.

Top
#1759130 - 09/25/11 06:19 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
Arctic_Mama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/09
Posts: 379
Loc: Alaska
He did that to fit the entire exercise on the page without a line break, and since the point is the chart and not the notes, I think the gamble was that it wouldn't bother too many users wink
_________________________
Starting over after a decade-long hiatus from playing!
Yamaha CLP320

Burgmuller - Inquietude

Top
#1760979 - 09/28/11 08:43 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: Arctic_Mama]
Dulcetta Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/11/11
Posts: 75
Loc: U.K.

I'm one of those peeps who likes things in a logical order and I can't stop myself from twisting my whole body to the same angle as the written notes.. lol
book now removed from music stand while playing...

At master level of C major and starting F major.
Playing fifty times in a row was hilarious, the playing was easy enough, but I kept losing count.
_________________________
It will be happened; it shall be going to be happening; it will be was an event that could will have been taken place in the future. Simple as that.

Top
#1761014 - 09/28/11 09:58 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: Dulcetta]
pg2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/11
Posts: 65
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Hi,

noobie here... First post. Have been following this thread. I'm so excited I bravely ordered both Scales Boot Camp and Practicoepedia late last night.

Will be watching the mail box with bated breath...
_________________________
Where did you say middle "C" was?

Proud owner of a 1917 Chas. Brothers Grand Piano named "Goldy" She sings like a bird. I lucked out Big Time.

Korg SP 250

Top
#1761068 - 09/28/11 12:06 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
Arctic_Mama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/09
Posts: 379
Loc: Alaska
Good luck, PG2!

Dulcetta, I actually know how fast I do a scale, so a set a timer for the approximate time it would take me to do 50-60 scales and go for it. I cannot keep track of them otherwise, and I make errors in my fingers when trying to keep the count that I wouldn't be making otherwise. Thus, I just do my thing for six minutes at about 140 BPM and if I can make it with no errors I'm good!
_________________________
Starting over after a decade-long hiatus from playing!
Yamaha CLP320

Burgmuller - Inquietude

Top
#1761082 - 09/28/11 12:39 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: Arctic_Mama]
Dulcetta Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/11/11
Posts: 75
Loc: U.K.
Hi Pg2 , hope your book arrives soon.

Thanks Arctic Mama, it is what I resorted to also. Glad I'm not the only one.

Although , if you have to stop at around the 44th time because of an incredibly itching nose, does starting again where you left off still count, or is it back to the beginning ?
_________________________
It will be happened; it shall be going to be happening; it will be was an event that could will have been taken place in the future. Simple as that.

Top
#1761172 - 09/28/11 03:19 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
Arctic_Mama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/09
Posts: 379
Loc: Alaska
If my nose itches, my kids call for me, or the phone rings, I just pause the timer and go deal with it, then come back and continue. I only count it against myself when an error occurs, as that is what I am trying to work against is fingering issues or the wrong notes. I'm no merciless perfectionist wink


Edited by Arctic_Mama (09/28/11 03:56 PM)
Edit Reason: Typo fixed
_________________________
Starting over after a decade-long hiatus from playing!
Yamaha CLP320

Burgmuller - Inquietude

Top
#1762115 - 09/30/11 05:55 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: Arctic_Mama]
Dulcetta Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/11/11
Posts: 75
Loc: U.K.
lol , that is good to hear because my nose keeps doing that , as if answering the 70th question of the day beginning with "mummy why ....?" wasn't difficult enough, laugh

Pleased with my progress though.
Day five and I have reached Master level of C major and Advanced level of F, Bb and Eb Major. Working on Ab today. I'm going round the circle of fifths backwards for the major scales then will start the minors. Achieving the majority of the core challenges, leaving the Octave collector count until I have learnt all the scales ( I intend using this for revision), and I never see 6 people, just my boyfriend once a month, my toddler everyday and the rest of my family twice a year, and not within the vicinity of a piano, so I can forget that one lol.

I'm practising 3rd and 6th apart, but will leave the rest of the twists until all scales learnt and then use it to advance and improve.
Tempo wise I can get to 135-150 , 2 notes per beat, before it starts to get muddy sounding and I suspect one hand is faster than the other.

The book is definitely a good way of organising my practice, reassuring me I am making steady progress and good motivation to stick to my plan.
_________________________
It will be happened; it shall be going to be happening; it will be was an event that could will have been taken place in the future. Simple as that.

Top
#1762527 - 09/30/11 07:41 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
Arctic_Mama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/09
Posts: 379
Loc: Alaska
That is AWESOME! Thirds and sixths make my brain twitch, I'm leaving that and the other twists for spot practice warmups when I have them all down.

You're making awesome progress and fortunately kids don't seem to mind the repetitious nature of scales quite so much as adults wink
_________________________
Starting over after a decade-long hiatus from playing!
Yamaha CLP320

Burgmuller - Inquietude

Top
#1762541 - 09/30/11 08:00 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: Arctic_Mama]
PianoStudent88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 2975
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Arctic_Mama
You're making awesome progress and fortunately kids don't seem to mind the repetitious nature of scales quite so much as adults wink

I don't believe that. I'm not saying it's the other way either. For myself, for scales in particular, I understand the value of practicing them, and how to practice them repetitiously, than I ever did as a child.
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

Top
#1762546 - 09/30/11 08:06 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
Arctic_Mama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/09
Posts: 379
Loc: Alaska
Oh, I agree! What I meant was that my kids, for example, don't care when I play the same passage again and again, but my husband gets a bit twitchy wink

I completely agree that as adults we have bit of an edge on self discipline and understanding the theory behind why they are so important.
_________________________
Starting over after a decade-long hiatus from playing!
Yamaha CLP320

Burgmuller - Inquietude

Top
#1762584 - 09/30/11 09:23 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
PianoStudent88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 2975
Loc: Maine
LOL, now I see what you meant! :-D
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

Top
#1762737 - 10/01/11 07:40 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: PianoStudent88]
Dulcetta Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/11/11
Posts: 75
Loc: U.K.
Thanks and yes I understood what you meant about kids not minding the repetitious practice, the way it would annoy other family members.

I have always been a routine, pattern, and organised type of person , to the point of driving others mad .lol
Even as a kid I would practice the same measure of classical guitar over and over till I was happy with it, my dad called me a broken record. laugh
_________________________
It will be happened; it shall be going to be happening; it will be was an event that could will have been taken place in the future. Simple as that.

Top
#1762774 - 10/01/11 09:40 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: Dulcetta]
Dulcetta Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/11/11
Posts: 75
Loc: U.K.
Starting Db major now, but will be spending first fifteen mins working on Ab major contrary motion which is the most challenging so far.
_________________________
It will be happened; it shall be going to be happening; it will be was an event that could will have been taken place in the future. Simple as that.

Top
#1765035 - 10/05/11 08:29 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
PianoPraise Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/05/11
Posts: 72
How is everyone doing working through this book?
_________________________
Started lessons 03/22/11

Top
#1765089 - 10/05/11 10:18 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
pg2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/11
Posts: 65
Loc: Ontario, Canada
They've arrive!!!. On the 27th of Sept I ordered Scales Bootcamp and Practiceoepedia. I've been trying to track the order. USPS tracking system was down and when it wasn't it all appeared to be at the very beginning of the process until last night.

So, I figured it'll be a few more days. ...but no, a knock on the door this morning and standing in front ot me was a short tubby grayed hair pleasant man holding a package in his hot little hands with a polite Sign here and print There request.

I obeyed, barely managing to keep from ripping the parcel right out of his hands because I knew. Oh yes, I knew that Boot Camp and Practiceoepedia books had arrived.

Smiling as politely as could be managed I got the door closed, then tore open the packaging.

There they were. My very own copies of Scales Bootcamp and Practiceoepedia.

After looking at the contents and scanning various chapters it's clear.

People... these book are the answer to this women's prayers offering solutions to all kind of concerns that have plagued me.

Yahooo.... I'm in like Flynn . all I have to do now is start. I'm off to the piano.

I'll let you know how it goes


Edited by pg2 (10/05/11 10:21 AM)
_________________________
Where did you say middle "C" was?

Proud owner of a 1917 Chas. Brothers Grand Piano named "Goldy" She sings like a bird. I lucked out Big Time.

Korg SP 250

Top
#1765238 - 10/05/11 02:22 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
Arctic_Mama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/09
Posts: 379
Loc: Alaska
I'm glad they arrived and look helpful, I know they have been for me smile

PianoPraise, I'm doing well! Mastered a minor, A Major, b flat minor, and beginning B flat Major. I am just working through cover to cover, doing all the basic achievements and tempo challenges and saving the twists for warmup work in the future. It is taking me between half a week and a week per scale, anywhere from 20-60 minutes per day on them.
_________________________
Starting over after a decade-long hiatus from playing!
Yamaha CLP320

Burgmuller - Inquietude

Top
#1765403 - 10/05/11 07:33 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
Dulcetta Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/11/11
Posts: 75
Loc: U.K.
ooh you do sound excited PG2 !

Arctic mama, sounds good, that is a discipline I couldn't do, I like routine, but not cover to cover , I have to find a less obvious way . I think going from major to minor would confuse me. I think it will take me some time to get all the tempo challenges done.

PianoPraise, I have posted a fair few times in this thread already but here is today's update;

Day 11; I have reached Master level of C major and Advanced level of F, Bb , Eb , Ab, Db, and F# Major.

(I'm going round the circle of fifths backwards for the major scales then will start the minors.I'm leaving the Octave collector count until I have learnt all the scales ( I intend using this for revision).The only twists so far is 3rd and 6th apart, but will leave the rest of the twists until all scales learnt and then use it to advance and improve.
Tempo wise I can get to 135-150 2 notes per beat.)
_________________________
It will be happened; it shall be going to be happening; it will be was an event that could will have been taken place in the future. Simple as that.

Top
#1766346 - 10/07/11 09:22 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: Dulcetta]
PianoPraise Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/05/11
Posts: 72
I have not worked on the book as much as I should. I am trying to master the C Major scale then move to F Major. I am thinking this might not be the best way to approach the book. It looks like everyone else is working on several scales at the same time.

I have only been spending approximately an hour a week on this scale. We haven't started scales in my weekly lesson.
_________________________
Started lessons 03/22/11

Top
#1766511 - 10/07/11 03:34 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
PianoStudent88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 2975
Loc: Maine
PianoPraise, if this is your first time working with scales I think it makes sense to work on just one scale until you feel a degree of mastery of it. Maybe around or approaching Intermediate level in the BootCamp taxonomy.

Many method books teach scales in this order: C, G, F, D, A, E. Relative minor scales might start to be thrown in after about F, so a, d, e, etc.

The scales C, G, D, A, E all share the same fingering ([5]4321-321 in LH, 123-1234[5] in RH). (I'm using the convention of capital letters for major scales, small letters for minor scales.)

The order chosen for the rest of the major scales is sometimes: Ab, Db, Eb in some order; then B, Bb, F# in some order. The logic of this is based on the pattern of the root triad. C, G, F root triads are all white keys. D, A, E are white-black-white. Ab, Db, Eb are black-white-black. B, Bb, and F# each have their own pattern.

There are two different things going on with scales. One is the fingering. The other is knowing what the notes are in the scale independent of the fingering, or even of the keyboard. I find that knowing what notes are in the scale helps me play them. This may seem obvious but I thought I'd mention it anyway.


Edited by PianoStudent88 (10/07/11 03:41 PM)
Edit Reason: add a paragraph
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

Top
#1766517 - 10/07/11 03:49 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
PianoStudent88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 2975
Loc: Maine
Incidentally, after the first 6 major scales, I don't find the root-triad pattern order helpful. For me, B, Db, F# form a group of "fingers 2, 3 on the two black keys; 3, 4, 5 on the three black keys". And this group is easier for me than Eb, Ab, and Bb, whose pattern is "RH finger 4 on Bb, LH finger 4 on the 4th note of the scale". And neither of those patterns is the pattern some people like, which is going around the circle of fifths. And there are several other orders you could choose, including chromatic, white-note then black-note, random, or some other system. So the order you choose can be highly personal.

Hmmm, I don't find going around the circle of fifths helpful to me because I already know the notes of the scales, so I don't need the circle order of "add a sharp (or flat)". So I've chosen my order based on a progression of perceived complexity (to me) of the fingering pattern.
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

Top
#1767247 - 10/09/11 11:32 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
Eglantine Offline

Silver Supporter until Jan 01 2013


Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 804
Loc: Another Country
I bought Palmer's 'Complete Scales...' by accident a few weeks ago, and refer to it daily.

I'm going to take a look at Bootcamp.
_________________________
Currently working on: F. Couperin - Preludes & Sweelinck - Fantasia Chromatica
J.S. Bach, Einaudi, Purcell, Froberger, Croft, Blow, Frescobaldi, Glass, Couperin
1930s upright (piano) & single manual William Foster (harpsichord)


Top
#1767318 - 10/09/11 02:15 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
pg2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/11
Posts: 65
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Well, I'm working on Am and C. C major is going really well because I've practiced it quite a bit over the past few months.

The A minor on the other hand is giving me fits. I managed to get the once in each hand and once together. I've done the two octaves as well. I only trip up in the fingering when !'m descending in the grand tour.

I did get through it once very, very, very slowly but keep screwing it up since. So I've gone back to the beginning and doing the really really... really... really... slow thing in hopes I can figure out how I'm tripping myself up. It's strictly a problem in the fingering. Same thing with the contrary motion for Am .Having trouble coordinating the fingering for that too.. I can do it all over the keyboard in C .

I'll get it eventually. It's a good thing I love a challenge. looking forward to being able to thunder up and down with contrary motion in the middle that's my goal for all scales. in the meantime. Pray for me, LOL

I really love the deep base growl at the low end of the piano. Yummy.


Edited by pg2 (10/09/11 02:17 PM)
_________________________
Where did you say middle "C" was?

Proud owner of a 1917 Chas. Brothers Grand Piano named "Goldy" She sings like a bird. I lucked out Big Time.

Korg SP 250

Top
#1767662 - 10/10/11 12:13 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
Arctic_Mama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/09
Posts: 379
Loc: Alaska
I've been on vacation, it's good to be back and I'll be resuming my scales tomorrow.

I am only working on one at a time, but I haven't ever found fingering methods or triad groupings helpful. For me, mastering the scale pattern first and then linking it to the greater theory and arpeggios works better, that's why I'm just going cover to cover. It's less intuitive to memorize, but it keeps me from getting stuck in a 'method' for learning the scales. Things like the circle of fifths confuse me more than help, I just do better memorizing which keys have which sharps and flats, take ______ fingering, fit in ______ chords and inversions, etc etc. The patterns become apparent to me after I learn and cement it, but if I learn the 'trick' first, it somehow handicaps my comprehension.

In the same way, I do better working basic repetition and building from the ground up on things like math and science, not jumping around and learning bits and pieces over the years, so I think it is just my brain wink
_________________________
Starting over after a decade-long hiatus from playing!
Yamaha CLP320

Burgmuller - Inquietude

Top
#1767666 - 10/10/11 12:17 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
Arctic_Mama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/09
Posts: 379
Loc: Alaska
PG2, I can only do contrary motion scales by rote - that is, l must know them so well backwards and forwards, literally eyes closed, that I just let my hands and brain do their thing and let each scale flow outward. If I think about the individual notes and fingerings, especially on extremely difficult scales like b flat minor (my most recent) I can literally not do it at any respectable tempo. Contrary motion is a good test for my knowing a scale well, because just like in the middle of a piece I have to 'know' the scale - thinking about the bits of it kind of defeats the purpose (for me).

Maybe saving the contrary motion work, beyond a run-through or two, until after you have done the repetition challenges will help? Part of the reason I save the tempo challenges for last is because I can't work through both tempo AND accuracy. I must first be accurate, then I can speed it up and run it contrary, in thirds, dynamically adjusted, etc etc.

Your mileage may vary, but this has been my experience over the past few weeks.
_________________________
Starting over after a decade-long hiatus from playing!
Yamaha CLP320

Burgmuller - Inquietude

Top
#1767672 - 10/10/11 12:35 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
Brian Lucas Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 899
I don't know much about this approach, so they might include this concept, but I'll share one helpful scale exercise I do with my students.

Once you can play your scale up and down, try playing every other note (1-3-2-4-3-5, etc). I find that you really have to be able to see the key in order to do that. Whenever I inherit a student who has learned scales the traditional way (using fingers, rote, muscle memory, etc.) I always ask them to do this, and usually find that they can't. (One more reason why I believe memorization doesn't work)

I believe in order to become a great player, you have to be able to visualize everything on the keys. So play your scales out of order, and see how easily you can see it.

PS: If that's easy, try fourths (1-4-2-5-3-6...)
_________________________
-Brian
BM in Performance, Berklee College of Music, 21+ year teacher and touring musician
My Downloadable Video Piano Lessons
My Sight Reading eBook
My Music

Top
#1767950 - 10/10/11 12:38 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
pg2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/11
Posts: 65
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Ok my face is red.

I talked about being hung up on the A min contrary motion scales. Turns out I was doing them right but it took a little on line search where I could see the scales printed out in regular treble and bass clef form, one above the other like in regular sheet music.

I'm just learning about sharps and flats, playing them that is. And have been feeling a little intimidated by that idea but it was coming along in regular playing.

Because I learned the C major contrary scale a while go, on my own I might add, somehow I got the idea that all the keys should line up so to speak exactly the same way. Not the sharps coming in at different times in different hands. Silly how a misplaced idea stuck onto something else can create such confusion. Talk about trying to stuff a square peg in a round hole.

So there I was doing it right but figuring it had to be wrong. Totally forgot about hand independence.

Boy, I had all kinds of plans to take it to a friend so she could show me where I was going off the rails. I struggled and struggled to make it fit. I had really worried it like a dog with a bone.

Once I saw it in regular notation it made total sense I think I need to get a Palmer's or Alfred's so I can see it both ways. Good thing i'm persistent and good thing I know how to laugh at myself.

Teach me to have a little more faith in myself. My instincts are very good and I can hear when I'm off the rails and clearly I can problem solve too. Yeah I really love playing the scales. Such lovely sounds in the minor scales very eastern sounding to my mind moorish almost... the Amin scale in particular.

Anyway, I'm a happy camper today and will try to keep the faith with my own abilities to figure out where and how I'm going off the rails and to recognize when I've got it right too even when it's different than I expected it to be.
_________________________
Where did you say middle "C" was?

Proud owner of a 1917 Chas. Brothers Grand Piano named "Goldy" She sings like a bird. I lucked out Big Time.

Korg SP 250

Top
#1767998 - 10/10/11 01:43 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
PianoStudent88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 2975
Loc: Maine
pg2, I'm glad you figured it out! Sometimes there are things that someone just doesn't even think to say, and it takes a totally different view, like you finding the traditional line-up scales, to see what the block is. Congratulations on having A minor down pat.
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

Top
#1768280 - 10/10/11 09:29 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
Arctic_Mama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/09
Posts: 379
Loc: Alaska
Yay! I'm glad you figured it out! I like minor scales, too, especially the harmonic minors (as opposed to the natural or melodic).
_________________________
Starting over after a decade-long hiatus from playing!
Yamaha CLP320

Burgmuller - Inquietude

Top
#1768296 - 10/10/11 09:51 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
Burt59 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/07/11
Posts: 21
Loc: St charles IL
I have to admit i have read this thread many times and i am really tempted by the adventure smile The thing is i only have 2 lessons since i started and i haven't really worked on scales yet. I think i should wait a bit maybe a month or so... what do you guys think?
_________________________

Clementi op 36 mvt 1
Kulhau OP 20 1

Playing since Oct2011

Top
#1768352 - 10/10/11 11:40 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
PianoStudent88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 2975
Loc: Maine
What does your teacher suggest? S/he may have a way to introduce you to scales with good mechanics, retention, and music theoretical understanding.
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

Top
#1768361 - 10/10/11 11:53 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: Burt59]
Brian Lucas Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 899
Originally Posted By: Burt59
I have to admit i have read this thread many times and i am really tempted by the adventure smile The thing is i only have 2 lessons since i started and i haven't really worked on scales yet. I think i should wait a bit maybe a month or so... what do you guys think?
I think it's never too early to start on scales. Not from a rote/mechanical perspective, but actually seeing the scale on the piano. Done slowly and correctly, it can really give your playing an edge.

If you have a teacher, definitely ask about it. I love when my students want to learn more theory. smile
_________________________
-Brian
BM in Performance, Berklee College of Music, 21+ year teacher and touring musician
My Downloadable Video Piano Lessons
My Sight Reading eBook
My Music

Top
#1769406 - 10/12/11 06:05 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
pg2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/11
Posts: 65
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Managed to get AM Grand Tour done and the Thrice is Nice thing done too. I'm growing a wonderful appreciation for Am as i work this scale. I'm really listening to every note individually. Each one is so beautiful even on its own.

Tomorrow I'm going to get the Ten Times thing done, I hope.

I just love ticking off those little boxes. I feel so solid like I really accomplished something. Works better for me than gold stars did as a kid.

I'm thinking of using something along the lines of those boxes and tick marks for other pieces I'm working on. I find it's a great incentive... all those lovely little tick marks, yeah!

I like doing the work that's required for these scales It's a good organized way of working, nice to know what to do next.
_________________________
Where did you say middle "C" was?

Proud owner of a 1917 Chas. Brothers Grand Piano named "Goldy" She sings like a bird. I lucked out Big Time.

Korg SP 250

Top
#1769909 - 10/13/11 12:46 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
Arctic_Mama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/09
Posts: 379
Loc: Alaska
:thumbsup:

I do hashmarks in my practice journal for other pieces, too, so I don't lose track and underwork a section initially, and because it helps me see how my times spent and what sections or voices, comparatively, give me more or less trouble. It's really helpful to me, along with writing out the scale and its' theory at the beginning of learning a new one.
_________________________
Starting over after a decade-long hiatus from playing!
Yamaha CLP320

Burgmuller - Inquietude

Top
#1770862 - 10/15/11 12:52 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
notbach Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 155
Loc: Texas
Hello, all. I've been lurking for a while and this thread has motivated me to post.

I am new to piano and have been studying with a teacher for around six months. During the early days of lessons she would introduce scales and cadences and ask me to practice them. After the fourth or fifth time I 'forgot' to work on them, she relented a bit. She still asks me to play them every now and then during the lesson (which I do poorly), but mostly we focus on pieces.

Recently, I've been more motivated to improve my playing. I've had a scales book all along, but really could not get motivated to crack it very often. It traveled to the bottom of the music pile on the piano, and rarely surfaced. Out of sight and out of mind, at least until I fumbled through a hands-together scale at my lesson.

I heard about Scales Bootcamp in this thread and did a little investigating. I watched the videos and read what others had to say both here and elsewhere. I'm typically pretty skeptical of learning from method books (never really helped me in my guitar playing), but for $25 I decided I could afford to be disappointed one more time.

My book arrived on Tuesday and I started that night (after getting home from my lesson). I started on C major and got up to Intermediate that night. Wednesday I worked on G major and got it to Intermediate. Thursday was for A minor - Intermediate. And then today I got all three (the 'very easy' scales) up to Advanced. I haven't tried any Twists yet, just the Core and Tempo sections.

Gotta say, the main thing I've learned is that I absolutely love checking off little boxes. I think there's a little endorphin rush each time I complete an achievement. Whatever is happening in my brain, it's keeping me motivated and practicing scales. So I guess what I'm saying is that this book is doing exactly what it advertised. I wouldn't exactly say that I like playing scales, but I'm trying to decide which one to start next.

A few observations so far:
  • I thought C major would be the easiest of the three (CMaj, GMaj, AMin) but is the trickiest as there are no black key landmarks.
  • Contrary motion is easy compared to parallel motion, contrary to my expectations.
  • My left hand is slightly behind my right, development-wise, but not nearly as much as I feared.
  • I wish there was a way to reveal the next tempo goal only after completing the current one. I don't believe that any human can play hands together at MM=140 with four notes to a beat. Inconceivable!

Anyway, kind of a long message. Thanks everybody for posting your experiences with this book as the positive reviews in this thread were a big factor in my investing in it.
_________________________
Actively working on:
Bach - Two-part Invention No. 14
Chopin - Prelude in E minor - Op. 28, No. 4
Notenbuch für Nannerl - Tempo di menuetto in F (Anonymous)

Top
#1771550 - 10/16/11 01:09 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
MatsG Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/10/11
Posts: 2
Tip. I uses the iPad app "Piano scales" a lot. Simple app that gives you the fingering and you can choose different scales in all keys simply by selec from the circle of fifths. You find the app in Apples AppStore or using link below.

http://web.comhem.se/pianoscales/

Top
#1771677 - 10/16/11 05:00 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
pg2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/11
Posts: 65
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Still working on 10 times a row for Am I manage to keep it going for maybe five times then get tangled aagain always on the downward part.

More slow practice is the only way I can see to fix this. I'm not racing at all but clearly it got to be even slower.

Slower S l o w e r S l o w e r ... ... ... and so on.

It's coming together I'm sure and I feel/think that once I have cracked this for one scale I'll have proven to myself can do it and I won't have this problem in quite the same way again. I hope.

I think also that this is like other things I do and just suddenly everything clicks and falls into place. All struggling falls a way.

On the other hand what is already coming out of this is I am striking the keys with so much more confidence, smoother legato so I'm definitely ahead of the game in that sense. I am also getting much more evenness which is a prime goal for me and that is really what I"m after.

In the meantime Slower S l o w e r S l o w e r ..
_________________________
Where did you say middle "C" was?

Proud owner of a 1917 Chas. Brothers Grand Piano named "Goldy" She sings like a bird. I lucked out Big Time.

Korg SP 250

Top
#1772108 - 10/17/11 10:07 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
PianoStudent88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 2975
Loc: Maine
pg2, I have the same problem of getting muddled coming down. I think I need to discipline myself to practice just down scales for a while, to really suss out what's confusing me in that motion.

Congratulations on your increase in fluency and technique.

After my initial sprint for 150 ticks in a week, I've slacked off. I'm picking up again now. Doing a lot of just playing scales for fluency, before aiming for actually achieving more ticks. Am currently working on scales that are coming up in my Technique book for lessons. That means a, d, e; then Ab, Db, Eb. Farther down the pike are Gb, Bb, and B, but I find those much easier than Ab and Eb, so I'm not so concerned with pre-prepping them.
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

Top
#1772139 - 10/17/11 11:06 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
pg2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/11
Posts: 65
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Hi PianoStudent88

Thanks for the advice and encouragement, I needed it.

I did try a bunch of the first R/L hands separate and the H/T for the first time . It was a great confidence builder to tick off those boxes.

I'm choosing to ignore the difficulty rating so i don't set myself up to be mentally beaten before I start them. I also have an That Was Easy button which I hit for everything I do that is correct and musical and fluid too.

I"m for doing anything that builds my confidence and is rewarding in some way like the tick marks and this luscious male voice who says "that was easy". If it were an either or thing I'd go with the ticks they are so satisfying. but the two
together really set me up.

Also am going to try giving myself permission to fail. I read about that in a book I think it's "The Perfect Wrong Note". At least I think that's where I read it.
_________________________
Where did you say middle "C" was?

Proud owner of a 1917 Chas. Brothers Grand Piano named "Goldy" She sings like a bird. I lucked out Big Time.

Korg SP 250

Top
#1777887 - 10/26/11 11:20 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
PianoStudent88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 2975
Loc: Maine
I've gotten up to Db in the exercise book I'm using in my lessons, so it gives my teacher the first chance to notice the altered end points that Boot Camp uses. E.g. Db LH starts with 3 on Db but alters that to end with 2 on Db when going up (turning around to come down) for an easier crossover when you're not continuing up the scale. My teacher wants me to play the unaltered fingering (3 for Db), as if I were going to continue up the scale, to get maximum practice at that fingering.

Next week I'll try pointing out that we always bookend the white-key scales with 5, not crossing for a lone 1, so why should the black-key scales not benefit from similar shortcuts. I don't think I'm going to get anywhere, though.

In Boot Camp I'm currently focusing on Eb and Ab, to be ready for when they show up in my lesson exercise book next week. I'm improving. When I first started Boot Camp, I could barely get the three tick marks for playing with the fingering in front of me, and couldn't play contrary motion at all. Now I can play them from memory, and contrary too.
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

Top
#1777977 - 10/27/11 03:58 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
Arctic_Mama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/09
Posts: 379
Loc: Alaska
Great going, everyone! PS88, let us know what your teacher says to your suggestion about fingering. I do find that Johnston really worked to make everything as intuitive as possible and haven't found any of his choices to be awkward or bad form, but your teacher may have a reason for the altered fingering he/she uses.

I'm improving a ton as well, though I had to dial back doing the scales exclusively as I was getting bored. I am working on six tickmarks per practice session now, instead of spending about an hour a day on scales, alone. It makes the improvement slower, but I don't get brain fatigue quite so fast wink
_________________________
Starting over after a decade-long hiatus from playing!
Yamaha CLP320

Burgmuller - Inquietude

Top
#1777978 - 10/27/11 04:04 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
Arctic_Mama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/09
Posts: 379
Loc: Alaska
It is interesting you all have more difficulty descending the scale, in terms of errors. I'm the opposite - my fingerings just fall into place descending, but ascending I have to watch myself or I come up short on notes. It is something in the way I move my wrist, I think.

We're all so different! I think we all do agree on one thing, though - the achievements system is much more motivating than just being assigned a scale to perfect wink
_________________________
Starting over after a decade-long hiatus from playing!
Yamaha CLP320

Burgmuller - Inquietude

Top
#1790236 - 11/16/11 07:32 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
pg2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/11
Posts: 65
Loc: Ontario, Canada
I still can not play the 10 in a row for Am or now for CMaj, I can make it to about 7 in a row and then somehow tangle myself up. I haven't given up and i believe that if i can crack this once. it'll break the mental barrier.

But 7 times is better than 6 times. Hooray for me.

I can do this... I can do this...

whew...at least the scales are getting smoother and more even all the time
_________________________
Where did you say middle "C" was?

Proud owner of a 1917 Chas. Brothers Grand Piano named "Goldy" She sings like a bird. I lucked out Big Time.

Korg SP 250

Top
#1790298 - 11/16/11 09:05 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
PianoStudent88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 2975
Loc: Maine
pg2, great accomplishment to get to six and seven in a row. I haven't tried that challenge at all yet; three in a row is monumental enough for me.
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

Top
#1790357 - 11/16/11 11:23 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: PianoStudent88]
pg2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/11
Posts: 65
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Thanks for those kind words.

I've been all over myself for not making it to 10 times. It just seems to be taking forever.

I'm pretty sure when I crack the 10 times barrier once I will have broken a glass ceiling for myself. Ah well back to the keyboard...
_________________________
Where did you say middle "C" was?

Proud owner of a 1917 Chas. Brothers Grand Piano named "Goldy" She sings like a bird. I lucked out Big Time.

Korg SP 250

Top
#1865015 - 03/19/12 10:00 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
PianoStudent88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 2975
Loc: Maine
I've been reading the Piano Teachers' Forum archives, and came upon this post by Kreisler, which links to a document giving several ways of practicing scales musically -- that is, for best musical application.

Of interest to anyone practicing scales. It doesn't give fingering; rather it gives several ideas of how (and why) to practice scales.
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

Top
#1865200 - 03/20/12 07:07 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: PianoStudent88]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2230
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Just out of curiosity, does the Scale Bootcamp book accommodate 'natural' fingering in LH for G, D and A major (4th finger on F#) or just the C major fingering?
_________________________
Richard

Top
#1865204 - 03/20/12 07:18 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
Eglantine Offline

Silver Supporter until Jan 01 2013


Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 804
Loc: Another Country
Thanks for re-posting, PianoStudent88. Useful.
_________________________
Currently working on: F. Couperin - Preludes & Sweelinck - Fantasia Chromatica
J.S. Bach, Einaudi, Purcell, Froberger, Croft, Blow, Frescobaldi, Glass, Couperin
1930s upright (piano) & single manual William Foster (harpsichord)


Top
#1865247 - 03/20/12 09:20 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 2975
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: zrtf90
Just out of curiosity, does the Scale Bootcamp book accommodate 'natural' fingering in LH for G, D and A major (4th finger on F#) or just the C major fingering?

C major fingering is given for those keys, but the exercises could be done with any fingering.
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

Top
#1865265 - 03/20/12 09:58 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2230
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Thank you, PianoStudent88. I was looking at their site with the black notes for the three group and white notes for the four group and just wondered how they covered these keys.
_________________________
Richard

Top
#1865707 - 03/21/12 01:04 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
BrokenChord Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/25/11
Posts: 288
Loc: Michigan
Lets all do videos of us doing scales!

Top
#1865896 - 03/21/12 11:13 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: BrokenChord]
notbach Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 155
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: BrokenChord
Lets all do videos of us doing scales!


As I stated in my previous post, I don't believe that any human can play hands together at MM=140 with four notes to a beat.

OK, I know some can, but it is hard to fathom. I would love to see this!
_________________________
Actively working on:
Bach - Two-part Invention No. 14
Chopin - Prelude in E minor - Op. 28, No. 4
Notenbuch für Nannerl - Tempo di menuetto in F (Anonymous)

Top
#1865914 - 03/21/12 11:45 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
TomJamesMcmahon Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/20/12
Posts: 37
Loc: Bristol, UK
Hi all- just a couple of methods I find really useful in scale practice:
1. Arpeggio patterns play arpeggios 1-3-5-3, 2-4-6-4 etc.Very good for ensuring you know your scales and the chord qualities of different keys- i.e. major key chord ii always minor etc.

2.For speed practice this pattern up and down the scale- 123132 times 5. 231213. 312321. etc. you can do this with larger note groups focusing on the part of the scale you have most difficulty. Make sure you use the thumb as if you are continuing the scale. Contrary to popular opinion the thumb doesn't really go under as this immobilises the hand.
Hope this is useful!

Top
#1865965 - 03/21/12 01:16 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: notbach]
BrokenChord Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/25/11
Posts: 288
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: notbach
Originally Posted By: BrokenChord
Lets all do videos of us doing scales!


As I stated in my previous post, I don't believe that any human can play hands together at MM=140 with four notes to a beat.

OK, I know some can, but it is hard to fathom. I would love to see this!


I cant, but I really like doing scales..so it would be cool to share. Im planning on starting to share videos anyway. Maybe in the summer.

Top
#1867313 - 03/23/12 03:51 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
Kymber Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 1348
Loc: MA
Originally Posted By: ShiroKuro
My copy of Scales Bootcamp, by Philip Johnston, arrived and I started working with it yesterday.
Scales Boot Camp

I though it would be nice to have a thread here for people to share impressions and talk about how they're using it. I'm temporarily without a teacher, so I'm just starting at the beginning, A minor, and slowly doing the twists and so on, it seems like for easier scales I'll probably spend a week on them but for more difficult ones it will take more. We'll see how that prediction holds up!

Also, yesterday I used the Boot Camp book with the Palmer book
Palmer Complete Scales book

The Palmer book has all the chords, apes and cadences written out , which I need, so I don't think I'll want to stop using it, but the Johnston book's way of teaching the fingering and all the achievements are really helpful.

Other people please share your thoughts!



I really like the layout of the Palmer book. I think the visual connection is really helpful sometimes when learning theory etc. I might recommend it to my colleague who is a complete beginner.
Thanks!
_________________________
“The doubters said, "Man cannot fly," The doers said, "Maybe, but we'll try,"
And finally soared in the morning glow while non-believers watched from below.”
― Bruce Lee

Top
#1882891 - 04/20/12 09:13 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
GlassLove Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/22/10
Posts: 769
Loc: Michigan
I finally ordered scales bootcamp!!! It came in the mail yesterday. I have never played C major two octaves before (my teacher has me do one octave only). It is surprisingly tough. I have a lesson today, I will see what my teacher thinks about the book (she would likely approve ANYTHING that would get me to work on my scales more systematically!!!).


Edited by GlassLove (04/20/12 09:14 AM)
_________________________
Christine











Top
#2073271 - 04/29/13 04:19 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
Dulcetta Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/11/11
Posts: 75
Loc: U.K.
Hi, bumping up this old thread to ask how everyone who bought this book got along ?

After about 4 months of learning scales my health deteriorated and I was stuck in bed. It was a year later that I reached the point where sitting up and playing for 20 mins at a time became realistic again. So I considered it a fresh start as time away from piano was longer than first attempt at learning, lol.

I had previously learnt 7 scales and had used the goals in the book. However I found that upon returning to the instrument, I could play the scales fast, but not slow. If playing in contrary motion especially, I had no idea what notes I was playing and where my fingers were. So I had retained muscle memory which was good, but no brain alignment whatsoever.

I think I made a silly mistake by racing through the goals, and playing the scales far far too fast for a beginner the first time. I am glad I had made my ticks with a fine pencil so I could erase and start again. I still love the clear finger diagram approach when learning a scale, but I am ignoring the tempo goals for now. I am taking heed of advice elsewhere on this site to do slow initial practice without over-repetition in one sitting. Five times not fifty, lol.

So now I am six weeks into learning journey.
Currently practising :
D, A, E, B, Eb , five times in a row , full length of keyboard.
major scales :similar and contrary combined, 3rds and sixths similar motion,
3 and 4 note broken chords ascending and descending,
Arpeggios in root , I and II inversions.


Edited by Dulcetta (04/29/13 04:21 AM)
_________________________
It will be happened; it shall be going to be happening; it will be was an event that could will have been taken place in the future. Simple as that.

Top
#2076829 - 05/03/13 08:02 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
dagdvm Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/06/13
Posts: 12
Loc: Virginia
I just got my Scales Boot Camp book and I am starting on C Major. As a complete newbie I am amazed at how difficult it is (for me) to play both hands, going up or down together. It takes some serious thought!

Am I scale disabled?

When one REALLY knows a scale are the fingers moving automatically or is the brain thinking the whole thing through all the time? And this is just the easiest of the easy scales. I can't imagine how hard some of the others are.

I don't remember this difficulty when I had lessons as a child. Maybe I never got to the stage of playing both hands together, or maybe I have just wiped the distressing memories from my memory banks.

Any suggestions, help or encouragement will be much appreciated,

dagdvm

Top
#2076855 - 05/03/13 08:45 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
malkin Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/09
Posts: 2202
Loc: *sigh* Salt Lake City
If hands together is too hard, play hands separately.

In Bootcamp, I am finding the keyboard pictures with numbers pretty helpful right now because when left to my own devices, I keep playing a Bb in the D major scale. *eye roll*
_________________________
A good student is one who makes the teacher feel like a good teacher.

Top
#2076928 - 05/04/13 12:14 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
UK Paul UK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 396
Loc: Berkshire, England
Since my daughter is still asleep.... my partner is still partying the night away... and the birds are singing.... i have filled my time by purchasi g scales bootcamp. Need some structure in that part of my journey :-) may take a while to get here... and postage was nearly as much as the book!
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/user/PaulGPiano

Top
#2077011 - 05/04/13 05:38 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: dagdvm]
Dulcetta Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/11/11
Posts: 75
Loc: U.K.
Personally I think the c major scale is actually one of the hardest to start with. Yes there are no accidentals to remember, but playing on all white keys is harder than black keys. I would start with E major.
For me the key to scales is slow, slow, slow. Robert Estrin suggests starting at 60 pm and gradually working up. Bootcamp has it as a goal but I treated it like a one off thing and then raced through the rest of the goals. Personally that gave me good finger memory but no brain alignment.
Now I am aware of where the fingers are , and it helps, especially in contrary motion .E.G in D major I know if the right hand is on the mediant F# then the left hand finger is on the submediant(6th) B, when the right hand finger is on the leading tone C# then the left is on the supertonic E, and vice versa.
I find going slow and visualizing the keyboard in your mind as you play really helps.
_________________________
It will be happened; it shall be going to be happening; it will be was an event that could will have been taken place in the future. Simple as that.

Top
#2077041 - 05/04/13 08:02 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
raikkU Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/20/13
Posts: 73
I read a recommendation here to start scale practice with black keys. http://www.key-notes.com/piano-scales.html

Any recommendations how many times should I play a scale (just 1 octave at the beginning probably) with the first hand before switching?
_________________________
yamaha p-35. a piano neophyte since 04/13. my piano links

Top
#2077059 - 05/04/13 08:47 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: dagdvm]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2230
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Originally Posted By: dagdvm
...I am starting on C Major...And this is just the easiest of the easy scales...
C major is one of the hardest scales. The difficulty with scales is not about the reading so sharps and flats don't count. It's about turnng the thumb under smoothly and that's best done then the finger being passed is raised on a black key. Remember this when you're starting G, D and A in LH and comparing fingering with relative minors of these keys (E minor, B minor and F# minor).

B major is the easiest scale (HS) and the one Chopin always taught first. It suits the contour of the hand. E major is one of the easiest HT in either parallel or contrary motion.

Everyone finds HT difficult at first. Most people learn HT far too soon and maintain it over HS far too long. HS is by far the more important and slower is way more important than faster. Start each day's practice with crotchets/quarters and get them to around 60 bpm before moving to quavers/eighths. Do one AND two octaves. It's important to practise the turn at the top and bottom as much as the thumb crossing as it gives the lesser used fingers something to do (maybe not in F major).

Build them up to legato, staccato and non legato, with about four dynamic levels before adding triplets and going to three octaves. It might be worth spending a week or two on each key before adding triplets and/or HT on another cycle.

Add semiquavers/sixteenths on a further cycle and moving to four octaves when you're comfortable with triplets at 60 pbm for quarter notes in five or six dynamic levels.

Start slower when you start joining hands. Keep the fingers together at the turns, top and bottom. Go slow enough that you can consciously control the thumb crossings with the right hand at the right time. Speed and facility will come of their own accord and the better by not being forced.

You do need to think to play a scale well but the thinking gets easier as your fingers only need conscious control at the start of each finger group and the patterns become familiar across the keys.

If scales are difficult you're going too fast.
If scales are easy you're not doing them right.
If scales are boring you're not paying enough attention.

They are not finger exercises. They don't work the fourth and fifth fingers enough (until you get to double thirds). They are more for ear training. When you play one note at a time without accent it's easier to hear any unevenness in time or tone. When you can hear it, you can fix it. The end result is that your fingers play as if they had equal facility and strength when we know that they don't and we can bring this level of control to our pieces.

It's like drawing circles to improve your draughtsmanship. When you draw tumbleweeds it's difficult to see where you've gone wrong.
_________________________
Richard

Top
#2077062 - 05/04/13 08:55 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: raikkU]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2230
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Originally Posted By: raikkU
Any recommendations how many times should I play a scale (just 1 octave at the beginning probably) with the first hand before switching?
I would practise one and two octaves at first, see my reply above.

Do as many as it takes to get the last five to ten reps with full accuracy in each hand. Then sleep on it before doing more.

Additional thought: scales are to improve the technique we use in our pieces (touch and dynamic control) not to increase our velocity. If the fastest piece we play is a moderato there's no need to practise scales allegro. Practise a scale as if it comes from the piece you're about to practise.
_________________________
Richard

Top
#2077097 - 05/04/13 10:08 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: zrtf90]
malkin Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/09
Posts: 2202
Loc: *sigh* Salt Lake City
Originally Posted By: zrtf90

If scales are difficult you're going too fast.
If scales are easy you're not doing them right.
If scales are boring you're not paying enough attention.



Brilliant!
_________________________
A good student is one who makes the teacher feel like a good teacher.

Top
#2077106 - 05/04/13 10:43 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: zrtf90]
raikkU Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/20/13
Posts: 73
Originally Posted By: zrtf90

Everyone finds HT difficult at first. Most people learn HT far too soon and maintain it over HS far too long. HS is by far the more important and slower is way more important than faster. Start each day's practice with crotchets/quarters and get them to around 60 bpm before moving to quavers/eighths. Do one AND two octaves. It's important to practise the turn at the top and bottom as much as the thumb crossing as it gives the lesser used fingers something to do (maybe not in F major).

Build them up to legato, staccato and non legato, with about four dynamic levels before adding triplets and going to three octaves. It might be worth spending a week or two on each key before adding triplets and/or HT on another cycle.


By moving to quavers/eights (from quarters), do you mean that if I play at 60bpm one note per beat, I will speed up to playing two notes per beat?

Can you also clarify what it means to add triplets?

Thanks for the post, very helpful!
_________________________
yamaha p-35. a piano neophyte since 04/13. my piano links

Top
#2077109 - 05/04/13 10:57 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2230
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Yes, first set in crotchets, plum-plum-plum, second in quavers, cherry-cherry-cherry, third in triplets, apricot-apricot-apricot, fourth in semiq's, huckleberry-huckleberry-huckleberry.

Keep the metronome at 60 bpm until you're up to semiq's for four octaves, four notes per second and when you're comfortable with that THEN start increasing the metronome maybe 10% per cycle or so.
_________________________
Richard

Top
#2077222 - 05/04/13 03:37 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
Dulcetta Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/11/11
Posts: 75
Loc: U.K.
Another piece of advice I wish someone had given me, is do not say the finger numbers aloud as you play. Say or sing the note names, otherwise it gets hard to count/practise in different rhythms.
_________________________
It will be happened; it shall be going to be happening; it will be was an event that could will have been taken place in the future. Simple as that.

Top
#2077228 - 05/04/13 03:42 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: zrtf90]
Dulcetta Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/11/11
Posts: 75
Loc: U.K.
Richard that is the first I have came across that system. I learned tea , coffee, coca-cola, but I prefer yours. I think my 5 year old would like that one too. Although I might substitute banana for apricot. Do you have something to use for minims and semibreves ?
_________________________
It will be happened; it shall be going to be happening; it will be was an event that could will have been taken place in the future. Simple as that.

Top
#2077230 - 05/04/13 03:47 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: Dulcetta]
Polyphonist Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 6385
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Dulcetta
I might substitute banana for apricot.

Apricot is better because the accent is on the first syllable, rather than banana which has it on the second. Tangerine and cucumber would also be good ones. Zucchini would not, for the same reason. smile
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2077231 - 05/04/13 03:49 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
Polyphonist Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 6385
Loc: New York City
Right now I'm trying to sing the melody of Chopin's 25/2 using the apricot (or tangerine, or cucumber, or banana, or zucchini) method. I haven't been successful so far. ha
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2077243 - 05/04/13 04:13 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2230
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Originally Posted By: Dulcetta
Do you have something to use for minims and semibreves ?
Last time I played my scales in semibreves I fell asleep before I got to the end laugh

No, I don't. I tend to just lengthen plum or use another more suitable word when the occasion demands it but I try to use a word that takes longer to say such screech - no reference to anyone singing Chopin!

Cucumber can be used as a tribrach, three equal syllables, and is excellent for scales so thank you for that, Polyphonist. Apricot is a dactyl, having the accent on the first syllable.

Singing the note is excellent practise and great aural training. If you practise your scale playing on headphones it can also be embarrassing, as can trying to cover four octaves. smile
_________________________
Richard

Top
#2077251 - 05/04/13 04:23 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: Polyphonist]
Dulcetta Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/11/11
Posts: 75
Loc: U.K.
Cucumber is good yes.
However I'm from Lanarkshire in Scotland, our accent is most definitely on the Ba in banana.
_________________________
It will be happened; it shall be going to be happening; it will be was an event that could will have been taken place in the future. Simple as that.

Top
#2077413 - 05/04/13 10:57 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
dagdvm Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/06/13
Posts: 12
Loc: Virginia
Thank you very much to everyone for all your very thoughtful and helpful suggestions. I will study your posts and try to put all this good information to use.

Anne
(dagdvm)

Top
#2078203 - 05/06/13 09:26 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
raikkU Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/20/13
Posts: 73
zrtf90,

How would you word this? Something with 6 syllables, or?

_________________________
yamaha p-35. a piano neophyte since 04/13. my piano links

Top
#2078266 - 05/06/13 11:25 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2230
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Originally Posted By: raikKU
How would you word this? Something with 6 syllables, or?
No, three or two depending on whether I'd include the LH on beat 1.

Without the surrounding phrase it's difficult to see which is the best solution.

What's the whole phrase?

The idea is to use a syllable on every note using the natural rhythm of speech instead of counting. The common phrase for four vs. three polyrhythms is:

'pass the gol-den but-ter'

When its the less common three against four a better phrase might be:

'pass me the but-ter knife'

Try saying this to tune of Silent Night to get a better idea:

Sleep before dawn
Wait for the morn
Hush, my dear!
Look! It's here.

D'you get the idea?


In your example there's a choice here of using the LH chord as part of the wording in which case I'd use a trochee on beat 1 or skip beat one in the wording and use an iamb for the RH.

Either 'Go-ing home' or just 'Before' might be suitable.
_________________________
Richard

Top
#2078273 - 05/06/13 11:40 AM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
PianoStudent88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 2975
Loc: Maine
The problem I have with the use of words like that is that there's nothing to help you hold "home" for the right amount of time. My natural way of saying "going home" has "home" take just one beat. To be able to feel and hold it for two beats, I have to have some implicit counting or sense of time already. The words can't give that to me.

ETA: also, this word method could be confusing for singers, who already have words to go with their notes, and sometimes the challenge is to work out the timing of the notes which is different from the rhythm one might use when simply saying the words.


Edited by PianoStudent88 (05/06/13 11:43 AM)
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

Top
#2078311 - 05/06/13 01:10 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2230
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
That's one of the problems of using a snippet instead of a whole phrase and words and phrases that I know instead of words and phrases that you know.

This does not exclude using a metronome or a foot for the beats either. It's just easier than counting every tick whether a note should be sounded or not.

Nor is it a panacea. It's just another tool in the box.

_________________________
Richard

Top
#2082602 - 05/14/13 06:17 PM Re: Scales Bootcamp [Re: ShiroKuro]
UK Paul UK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 396
Loc: Berkshire, England
My copy arrived in uk today.

Will start working through it tomorrow...

Has anyone completed this i wonder... what a mountain to climb!
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/user/PaulGPiano

Top
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5 >

Moderator:  BB Player, casinitaly 
What's Hot!!
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
Download & Print Sheet Music Instantly
sheet music search
sheet music search

sheet music search
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
138 registered (Almaviva, accordeur, alex-kid, 46 invisible), 1374 Guests and 25 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
74236 Members
42 Forums
153565 Topics
2250602 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Fazioli "factory tour" video.
by R_B
04/18/14 10:27 PM
Piano Science
by venice1
04/18/14 09:59 PM
MP7 vs MP11: only 6 differences?
by Marko in Boston
04/18/14 09:08 PM
the conclusion on weighted keys and developing technique
by B.Petrovic
04/18/14 09:02 PM
song i wrote about a coffee shop
by jedplays
04/18/14 08:50 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission