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#1732189 - 08/13/11 11:14 AM Re: OT - accounts and posts [Re: Mark_C]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6344
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
One by one, hours and hours and hours??

Pogo, your instincts here are wrong. smile
You are inflating some danger in your mind.


Absolutely. Pogo is a valued and respected PW member. I can't think of anything Pogo has posted in the past that she should be ashamed of, or would negatively impact her career. I would encourage Pogo to remain on PW (if she wishes to) and just be more selective about the discussions she chooses to enter into ...which includes simply avoiding dialog with the toxic personalities who pass through here from time to time.


Edited by carey (08/13/11 11:14 AM)
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#1732193 - 08/13/11 11:35 AM Re: OT - accounts and posts [Re: Pogorelich.]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5263
Loc: Europe
I'm quite the opposite to Pogo. I hold my name with my account and everybody knows who I am and with a single click can also see how I look! I do feel sometimes that I've posted the wrong thing, but usually I don't mind too much. I do try to act like I would do normally and if so there's nothing to be ashamed of.\

I also would hate it if you left Pogo! Editing your posts and deleting your posts would also prove that you changed your mind, but are ashamed of what you did before.

The one idea that I could provide would be to excersize restrain: Don't post too much and when the time comes and you're angry, write the post and either e-mail it to yourself, or just preview it for a loooong time, until you know it's right or wrong!
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http://www.musica-ferrum.com

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#1732200 - 08/13/11 11:47 AM Re: OT - accounts and posts [Re: Pogorelich.]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6149
Loc: St. Louis area
If it is the fear of it affecting your career, you'd be better off deleting your facebook account. (not Pogo specific; I've not seen Pogo's facebook account)
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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#1732234 - 08/13/11 12:43 PM Re: OT - accounts and posts [Re: Pogorelich.]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4528
Loc: in the past
I'll keep the account for the sake of PMs I've been exchanging with people, because I don't want them gone, but I don't think I'm going to be posting much, especially for threads with poison.

RE facebook account, only a select few can actually see what I write there, or see any pictures for that - I also don't befriend "dangerous" people - it's actually much better for that stuff than PW, at least you can tweak the privacy settings =P
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#1732235 - 08/13/11 12:44 PM Re: OT - accounts and posts [Re: Pogorelich.]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4528
Loc: in the past
So if there are any posts of mine that I want deleted, can I send them to someone and just delete those? (someone mentioned that earlier)
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#1732243 - 08/13/11 12:50 PM Re: OT - accounts and posts [Re: Frozenicicles]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13789
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Originally Posted By: Frozenicicles
Are there any posts where it's obvious who you are? Maybe you could just ask to get all your recordings and any posts containing references to your school/name deleted.


This is something we've done. Pogo asked me to remove a few specific posts and I did. Then I did a search on the forums for Pogo's real name and found (and deleted) a few other identifying posts. As it stands, it would take a tremendous amount of work for someone to discover her identity starting here.

The bigger danger is if she were "outed" by someone she knew in RL. I don't think it's likely, but it is possible.

I know all of this sounds a bit odd to many people, but unfortunately, I think Pogo's fears are somewhat justified. The piano community is a somewhat small one and relies very heavily on word-of-mouth for academic jobs, festival gigs, and other professional activities.

Also, we occasionally forget how visible Piano World is sometimes. Frank has done a wonderful job getting us listed on search results. All one has to do is Google "yuja wang dress" and one of our recent threads is the 5th link on the first page.
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#1732246 - 08/13/11 12:53 PM Re: OT - accounts and posts [Re: Kreisler]
TheHappyMoron Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/10
Posts: 1166
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Also, we occasionally forget how visible Piano World is sometimes. Frank has done a wonderful job getting us listed on search results. All one has to do is Google "yuja wang dress" and one of our recent threads is the 5th link on the first page.


Haha, not the best thread to advertise pianoworld, i fear!
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#1732249 - 08/13/11 12:56 PM Re: OT - accounts and posts [Re: Kreisler]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4528
Loc: in the past
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Also, we occasionally forget how visible Piano World is sometimes. Frank has done a wonderful job getting us listed on search results. All one has to do is Google "yuja wang dress" and one of our recent threads is the 5th link on the first page.


Exactly why I'm concerned. I've been found before, through those posts I asked Kreisler to delete (which are now gone), and it was worse because I used to have a link to my piano blog (which a picture of me and a link to my website and everything), which I've deleted now...

Kreisler, can I go through some of my posts and send you links with posts that I'd want gone? If it's not too much hassle.. otherwise, I guess I can live with it..
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#1732256 - 08/13/11 01:08 PM Re: OT - accounts and posts [Re: Pogorelich.]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4528
Loc: in the past
I just thought of something - would it be easier if I "notify" my own posts that I want gone?
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#1732263 - 08/13/11 01:19 PM Re: OT - accounts and posts [Re: Pogorelich.]
BB Player Offline


Registered: 11/17/06
Posts: 2601
Loc: Not in Texas
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
I just thought of something - would it be easier if I "notify" my own posts that I want gone?

Yes.
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Greg

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#1732264 - 08/13/11 01:21 PM Re: OT - accounts and posts [Re: Pogorelich.]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4528
Loc: in the past
Awesome - just don't ban me when I notify them =P
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'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#1732280 - 08/13/11 01:56 PM Re: OT - accounts and posts [Re: Pogorelich.]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13789
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Yep...I can take care of stuff in the Pianists' Corner. Outside the corner, one of the admins will have to take care of it.

Let the notifications begin! laugh
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#1732282 - 08/13/11 01:58 PM Re: OT - accounts and posts [Re: Pogorelich.]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4528
Loc: in the past
I've already notified most of the threads I've started.. and it's working. yay! The posts.. will be annoying because the ones I don't like are buried among so many others....
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#1732284 - 08/13/11 02:00 PM Re: OT - accounts and posts [Re: Pogorelich.]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13789
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Haha! BB beat me to the punch. That guy's fast!
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#1732285 - 08/13/11 02:00 PM Re: OT - accounts and posts [Re: Pogorelich.]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10363
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Removing selected posts changes threads. If someone is having a thread conversation and half the conversation suddenly disappears, the other poster's writing is suddenly nonsensical. If you start allowing people to remove their own posts selectively, shouldn't you also notify everyone else whose posts now are left dangling so that they too can choose whether or not to have their own posts removed? Mucking with history, even internet history, is complicated.
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Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#1732287 - 08/13/11 02:02 PM Re: OT - accounts and posts [Re: Piano*Dad]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19777
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
Removing selected posts changes threads. If someone is having a thread conversation and half the conversation suddenly disappears, the other poster's writing is suddenly nonsensical. If you start allowing people to remove their own posts selectively, shouldn't you also notify everyone else whose posts now are left dangling so that they too can choose whether or not to have their own posts removed? Mucking with history, even internet history, is complicated.

Good concern. I'd guess, though, that there's no need to do anything like that since this is a rare instance.

I do think it's a reason not to have this be common. And I continue wondering if most of Pogo's concern is needless and there isn't very much of her posting that needs the kind of attention they're planning to give it. I think this is so, but only she can judge.
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1732288 - 08/13/11 02:04 PM Re: OT - accounts and posts [Re: Pogorelich.]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13789
Loc: Iowa City, IA
That's why we generally don't remove posts. Don't worry, we'll do our best to preserve the integrity of the discussions.

(And also, it's why we leave things as being marked as edited. That way, at least people will know that history has been mucked with.)
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#1732299 - 08/13/11 02:22 PM Re: OT - accounts and posts [Re: Pogorelich.]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4528
Loc: in the past
I think I have a right to remove posts which include links to my website or youtube.... Or posts where I've bitched about my school. Relax, piano dad.
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#1732320 - 08/13/11 03:01 PM Re: OT - accounts and posts [Re: Pogorelich.]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10363
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
I'm quite relaxed. I doubt I would be affected at all. But my mind often wanders into the realm of general principles. As a general principle, allowing anyone to remove posts long after the fact, and at their own discretion, seems like a bad idea.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#1732325 - 08/13/11 03:10 PM Re: OT - accounts and posts [Re: Piano*Dad]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19777
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
....my mind often wanders into the realm of general principles...

me2 -- and on that level I agree it's very valid.

If it became common, the site could be a mess.
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1732326 - 08/13/11 03:10 PM Re: OT - accounts and posts [Re: Piano*Dad]
liszt85 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 3159
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
I'm quite relaxed. I doubt I would be affected at all. But my mind often wanders into the realm of general principles. As a general principle, allowing anyone to remove posts long after the fact, and at their own discretion, seems like a bad idea.


Maybe.. but if you've experienced the wrath of the "lurkers" who have nothing but the wrong intentions, you might reconsider your stance.
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#1732334 - 08/13/11 03:24 PM Re: OT - accounts and posts [Re: Pogorelich.]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3583
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
It's fairly unlikely to affect pogorelich if her posts remain, but it is her right to do so of that's her decision. I have been a moderator of several forums and there IS an option to delete an account and all posts, but you have to have the administrative privileges to see it, and you have to know how to do it. Trust me, it's there. If Kreisler and BB Player can't see it, I can only assume that they don't have the highest level of access to the forum software - which is sensible because you wouldn't want somebody to have a bad day and delete people in a mind-snap. It may be that only Frank himself has this power and he would be reluctant to apply it. Even with the highest deleting power, not all software forums have the power to delete quotes from the affected member contained in other posters' replies. That might have to be done manually - (an enormous task and really not worth the effort unless there are posts supporting terrorism or something). In the end, forums have become public speaking platforms and you have to stand by what you post. If you don't want to be viewed in a poor way, be careful how you conduct yourself.

I intentionally haven't revealed my identity on PW basically because I am a teacher and it's highly likely that my students would stumble of this forum eventually. I choose to use PW as a place where I can air my thoughts on things - I prefer to do it anonymously because I know that part of my job is to keep a certain amount of professional detachment so that I don't offend my students/families with different backgrounds - and so I can relate stories of experiences I've had without breaching the privacy of others. I'm not really a private person by nature, I just need to walk a fine line for my own business. If I'm talking on the teacher's forum and engaging in debate, I certainly don't want to have my students being aware of all the things I grapple with. I need to keep things simple and streamlined for my studio.

Pogorelich is overstating the danger in this particular situation only because she hasn't been an offensive poster. I have followed her posts for a year now and all of them have been exemplary so there's nothing there to worry about. I would advise her to just take a break because at her age, it's easy to overreact and she may decide at a later date that she wants to come back. It's only the people who behave very extremely or controversially that have anything to worry about with respect to their posting history. Saul would be the perfect example of that. His recent behaviour is so extreme it could easily affect his career at some point.

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#1732340 - 08/13/11 03:29 PM Re: OT - accounts and posts [Re: Pogorelich.]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10363
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Imagine trying to draft a general policy about how to allow people to cancel, change, add, or otherwise alter posts at their own discretion long after the fact. A general principle is one that you would allow everyone to follow, not just some individual asking for dispensation. Giving one person dispensation brings up all sorts of fairness issues and it is NOT general.

I would venture that trying to codify rules that would allow people to go in, after the fact, would be a nightmare. I suspect such a rule would go a long way toward the dissolution of the forum itself. The value of writing depends in part on assurances that the context of the writing (how what you contribute fits into the fabric of the forum) is not changeable at the whims of any individual.

We have certain rules against profanity, and moderators can go in to edit posts for that. They can also edit content a bit using guidelines about spam and vulgarity. But they are very circumspect about changing the content of posts, and for good reason. And that's the moderators. Should every individual be able to be a moderator of their own posts after the fact? I'm dubious.

Maybe someone could give it a try. Write a general rule and see how people here view it. The commentary on such a rule is likely to reveal lots of problematic consequences. Could be fun! smile
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#1732351 - 08/13/11 03:39 PM Re: OT - accounts and posts [Re: Pogorelich.]
Frozenicicles Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/02/09
Posts: 1324
Loc: Canada
But if someone is experiencing harassment or threats to their career as a result of what they post here, it's perfectly understandable that the moderators would be kind and delete the posts that can pinpoint their identity. Sometimes exceptions have to be made. Personally, I would never participate in a forum that is related to my career because of this risk. I'm also not very active on facebook but that's mainly because I'm not all that nosy. Facebook is really a site for stalkers. :P

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#1732374 - 08/13/11 04:27 PM Re: OT - accounts and posts [Re: Frozenicicles]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3583
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: Frozenicicles
Facebook is really a site for stalkers. :P

Aint that the truth!

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#1732377 - 08/13/11 04:31 PM Re: OT - accounts and posts [Re: Piano*Dad]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3583
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad

I would venture that trying to codify rules that would allow people to go in, after the fact, would be a nightmare. I suspect such a rule would go a long way toward the dissolution of the forum itself.


I agree, and I don't support it either. In fact, making it very hard to remove posts can contribute positively because if you know you can't make outlandish statements and just delete them later, it tends to make people more circumspect in what they say in the first place. People need to be responsible and accountable for their own actions. You can't delete things you say in the real world - why should we make it so easy on a forum?

I don't have a problem with personally identifying information being removed from a post, especially for a young person who may have entered into things inadvisably, but the post should stay.

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#1732388 - 08/13/11 05:02 PM Re: OT - accounts and posts [Re: Piano*Dad]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4528
Loc: in the past
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
Imagine trying to draft a general policy about how to allow people to cancel, change, add, or otherwise alter posts at their own discretion long after the fact. A general principle is one that you would allow everyone to follow, not just some individual asking for dispensation. Giving one person dispensation brings up all sorts of fairness issues and it is NOT general.

I would venture that trying to codify rules that would allow people to go in, after the fact, would be a nightmare. I suspect such a rule would go a long way toward the dissolution of the forum itself. The value of writing depends in part on assurances that the context of the writing (how what you contribute fits into the fabric of the forum) is not changeable at the whims of any individual.

We have certain rules against profanity, and moderators can go in to edit posts for that. They can also edit content a bit using guidelines about spam and vulgarity. But they are very circumspect about changing the content of posts, and for good reason. And that's the moderators. Should every individual be able to be a moderator of their own posts after the fact? I'm dubious.

Maybe someone could give it a try. Write a general rule and see how people here view it. The commentary on such a rule is likely to reveal lots of problematic consequences. Could be fun! smile


I don't understand why this is such a big deal for you. In other forums I've been to, we've had the power to delete posts even years after posting them. It's not like people often dig up old old threads and read them - they usually look at recent stuff. It's really not a big deal, I don't know why you're making it one.
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#1732394 - 08/13/11 05:10 PM Re: OT - accounts and posts [Re: Pogorelich.]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10363
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
It's not a big deal with me. I'm not bringing it up because I want to fight about it. I bring it up because it's interesting.

If PW wants to switch to a system in which people can adjust everything after the fact, that's worth a discussion. I think such a system would fail, but we can certainly have a conversation about it.

Once again, I'm talking about the general issue, not your specific desires.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#1732398 - 08/13/11 05:18 PM Re: OT - accounts and posts [Re: Piano*Dad]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4528
Loc: in the past
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
It's not a big deal with me. I'm not bringing it up because I want to fight about it. I bring it up because it's interesting.

If PW wants to switch to a system in which people can adjust everything after the fact, that's worth a discussion. I think such a system would fail, but we can certainly have a conversation about it.

Once again, I'm talking about the general issue, not your specific desires.


Every other forum I've seen has had the option of deletion by the author. Also, when members are banned, usually ALL their posts disappear without a trace.
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#1732400 - 08/13/11 05:21 PM Re: OT - accounts and posts [Re: Pogorelich.]
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17777
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
Back in the old days, before the forum software change, you could go back and edit/delete former posts whenever you wanted. A prominent and valued member of the forum decided to leave (long story, not worth rehashing), and he went back and deleted most of his posts. It made a mess of a lot of threads! So I'm in favor of the new system that puts a time limit, though I wish it were more like 48 hours.

I can sympathize with Pogo's wish to delete post hoc all identifying posts/threads, but I hope she lets her other posts remain. And I hope she continues to keep posting on PW.
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