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Hi everyone, hope you are having a nice summer So, I'm fooling around with other scales, particularly the Dorian scale as I've heard it is often used in Blues and rock music. Dorian's tonic is "D", obviously; and it does have a nice interesting sound to it (D E F G A B C D). The "formula" is: T ST T T T ST T. As a learning experience, I've applied this formula to a scale that starts on C, then on E. They sound okay but I guess my ears are not used to them! My question is, is this valid like in the Ionian mode that we currently use, or is Dorian only 1 scale with D as the tonic as stated above, and that's it? Same interrogation with the Aeolian mode, as in A minor which is the relative minor of C major. Also, are there "major" and "minor" forms of the Dorian scale? I suppose I could always Google this... Anyways, if that's the case, that makes a lot more scales to master and I'm just getting started with the Blues scales. Whew, long way to go! John
Last edited by John_In_Montreal; 08/16/11 12:14 AM.
"My piano is therapy for me" - Rick Wright. Instrument: Rebuilt Kurzweil K2500XS and a bunch of great vintage virtual keyboards. New Kurzweil PC3X.
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Ahh the Modes. Always a source for controversy . . . One way of memorising the modal scales is relating them to a major (ionian) scale. Dorian starts on the second (II) degree of a major scale. Bb-major will then give you C-dorian (C D Eb F G A Bb C) third degree (III): Phrygian IV: Lydian V: Mixolydian VI: Aeolian (natural minor) VII: Locrian The Dorian scale is minor only, it' has a minor third. Dorian, Phrygian, Aeolian, Locrian are all minor scales Ionian, Lydian, Mixolydian are major scales.
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Eleanor Rigby is in dorian.
NB: People use the word 'mode' to mean different things. Never assume you understand them, especially if they play jazz and/or guitar.
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Hi Chris, Thank you for this mini lesson, very enlightening! One way of memorising the modal scales is relating them to a major (ionian) scale. Dorian starts on the second (II) degree of a major scale. Bb-major will then give you C-dorian (C D Eb F G A Bb C) third degree (III): Phrygian IV: Lydian V: Mixolydian VI: Aeolian (natural minor) VII: Locrian
My theory book mentioned most of this but only as a "matter of fact" thing, with no detailed explanation. Never explained how to memorize them. I don't get this part though (but I will endavour to figure it out): Bb-major will then give you C-dorian (C D Eb F G A Bb C) The Dorian scale is minor only, it' has a minor third.
Funny you mention this because the very first thing I noticed after playing 3 scales (C D E) was that they sounded minor, and in fact they all started out like the minor scales we use every day. So is the flatted 3rd (in chords, scales, etc) what always gives a minor quality? I deduct that this is so, except of course for Ionian, Lydian, Mixolydian. For the fun of it, I will play around with the Phrygian, Aeolian, Locrian scales a bit. Its nice to go off the beaten path once in a while Dorian, Phrygian, Aeolian, Locrian are all minor scales Ionian, Lydian, Mixolydian are major scales.
This is an interesting tidbit of information Chris Ionian, Lydian, Mixolydian are major scales.
Light-bulb moment: I know we are not talking about intervals here but scale degrees; if I look at this from an "intervals" point of view, is it a coincidence or does one have nothing to do with the other? Ionian - 1st (Unison), Lydian - 4th (Perfect fourth), Mixolydian - 5th (Perfect fifth). John
Last edited by John_In_Montreal; 08/16/11 06:35 AM.
"My piano is therapy for me" - Rick Wright. Instrument: Rebuilt Kurzweil K2500XS and a bunch of great vintage virtual keyboards. New Kurzweil PC3X.
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Hi 10LeftThumbs, Eleanor Rigby is in dorian. Yup, I read that in a theory book. NB: People use the word 'mode' to mean different things. Never assume you understand them, especially if they play jazz and/or guitar.
Hum... I'll remember that. Nothing seems worse in a conversation than saying the same thing but using different words! J
"My piano is therapy for me" - Rick Wright. Instrument: Rebuilt Kurzweil K2500XS and a bunch of great vintage virtual keyboards. New Kurzweil PC3X.
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Ionian, Lydian, Mixolydian are major scales.
Light-bulb moment: I know we are not talking about intervals here but scale degrees, if I look at this from an "intervals" point of view, is it a coincidence or does one have nothing to do with the other? Ionian - 1st (Unison), Lydian - 4th (Perfect fourth), Mixolydian - 5th (Perfect fifth).John One has nothing to do with another. It's only a method to understand and remember how the scales are built. Instead of "seeing"/remembering Dorian as: WT HT WT WT WT HT WT I can use (as a sort of mnemonic) "play a major scale, staring on it's II". However, it does not mean that on every II-chord play a dorian scale, on every V chord play a mixolydian and on every I play a Ionian scale. (Which btw, does work pretty well )
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Dorian, Phrygian, Aeolian, Locrian are all minor scales Ionian, Lydian, Mixolydian are major scales.
Thanks Chris. I found this very helpful.
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Hi, I found some very interesting information including historical facts, about the Dorian scale on Wikipedia, if anyone is also interested. Lots of stuff there, some of it way over my head and maybe not all that important for the moment. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorian_modeI wasn't expecting to geek out on this, its just part of the fun in music education As usual, Googling works its magic although I'm sure nothing beats a good verbal explanation from a knowledgeable teacher. John
Last edited by John_In_Montreal; 08/16/11 10:23 AM.
"My piano is therapy for me" - Rick Wright. Instrument: Rebuilt Kurzweil K2500XS and a bunch of great vintage virtual keyboards. New Kurzweil PC3X.
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Ionian, Lydian, Mixolydian are major scales.
Light-bulb moment: I know we are not talking about intervals here but scale degrees, if I look at this from an "intervals" point of view, is it a coincidence or does one have nothing to do with the other? Ionian - 1st (Unison), Lydian - 4th (Perfect fourth), Mixolydian - 5th (Perfect fifth).John One has nothing to do with another. It's only a method to understand and remember how the scales are built. Instead of "seeing"/remembering Dorian as: WT HT WT WT WT HT WT I can use (as a sort of mnemonic) "play a major scale, staring on it's II". However, it does not mean that on every II-chord play a dorian scale, on every V chord play a mixolydian and on every I play a Ionian scale. (Which btw, does work pretty well ) Ah, Ok then, thanks Chris, John
"My piano is therapy for me" - Rick Wright. Instrument: Rebuilt Kurzweil K2500XS and a bunch of great vintage virtual keyboards. New Kurzweil PC3X.
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I don't get this part though (but I will endavour to figure it out): Bb-major will then give you C-dorian (C D Eb F G A Bb C) The Dorian scale is what you get when starting on the second degree of a major scale. For example D-dorian starts on the second degree of the C-major scale: D E F G A B C D. To get C-dorian, ask yourself: C is the second degree of what scale? Answer: C is the second degree of the Bb major scale. So playing the notes of the Bb major scale, but starting on C, gives you the C-dorian scale: C D Eb F G A Bb C. Another way to think of this is to relate back to the modes derived from the C major scale. So, D-dorian has F natural and C natural: i.e., flatted 3rd and 7th as compared to D-major. So C-dorian should have flatted 3rd and 7th as compared to C-major: Eb and Bb. From this we notice that C-dorian is related to the Bb-major scale.
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Ionian, Lydian, Mixolydian are major scales.
Light-bulb moment: I know we are not talking about intervals here but scale degrees; if I look at this from an "intervals" point of view, is it a coincidence or does one have nothing to do with the other? Ionian - 1st (Unison), Lydian - 4th (Perfect fourth), Mixolydian - 5th (Perfect fifth). chrisbell has already replied that the intervals are coincidence. But going back to degrees, the fact that the major modes are the ones derived from the I, IV, and V scale degrees is not coincidence. I, IV, and V are the three major triads in a major scale. Therefore the modes that start on those scale degrees are the ones with a major I chord.
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Just as in the Ionian (major) and Aeolian (minor) modes, the other modes of course can be "done" in all keys. It's easier to envision them as a pianist because you can just think to yourself that you start on a given note and go up all the white keys to the next octave. Dorian is D-to-D on the white keys. Lydian is F-to-F on the white keys. Etc.
And interestingly, as in all modes based on a diatonic scale (meaning a scale where the two half-steps are maximally distant from one another), you keep adding sharps and then subtracting flats in the same order as you go up a fifth. G mixolydian has no sharps. D mixo (up one fifth) has one sharp, and it's F#. A mixo has two, F# and C#. And so forth.
And each mode has its pluses and minuses. The Ionian and Aeolian have good fourths, thirds (major and minor), and good fifths. The Ionian has the added bonus is a half-step up to the tonic at the end, which makes for a nice resolution. The Aeolian mode doesn't have that, but that's why there are tweaks to that mode where you bump the seventh up to give you that half-step up to the tonic that sounds so nice. Lydian gives you a nice major triad, but lacks a good fourth. Mixolydian has all the advantages of the normal Ionian scale but with a more hesitant whole-step up to the tonic at the end. Locrian is a big pain and generally neglected (the one where you go from B-to-B on all white keys) because it has a diminished fifth on it and hence is a bit hard to work with.
BTW, ignore the words "Major" and "minor" as you know them for the most part. What we think of as "G Major" is in this vocabulary better thought of as "G Ionian." "F minor" is actually "F Aeolian." When you use modal names instead, the words "Major and "minor" tend to refer to the particular flavor of third that the scale gives you.
Last edited by J Cortese; 08/16/11 05:19 PM.
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An example of a practical application: I was tabulating the keys in my Piano Literature I book. One piece by Bartok has no sharps or flats in the key signature, and ends on an A-E-A chord. A minor, right? But wait, the recurrent accidental in the piece is F#. So, it's playing the notes of a G major scale, while making A the tonic. A is the second degree of G major, so the piece is in A Dorian.
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Hi PianoStudent88 and J Cortese,
Thanks a lot for the expanded explanations. I've been noodling around with a few of those modes and I discovered elsewhere that there are modes I'll have to end up mastering if I want to play blues or rock tunes. And I thought I was almost done with the scales (1 x Ionian & 3 Aeolian + simple blues) hehe. Sooooooooooo much to learn.
John
"My piano is therapy for me" - Rick Wright. Instrument: Rebuilt Kurzweil K2500XS and a bunch of great vintage virtual keyboards. New Kurzweil PC3X.
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...BTW, ignore the words "Major" and "minor" as you know them for the most part. What we think of as "G Major" is in this vocabulary better thought of as "G Ionian." "F minor" is actually "F Aeolian." When you use modal names instead, the words "Major and "minor" tend to refer to the particular flavor of third that the scale gives you. Excellent post all the way around, J Cortese, and thanks especially for saying the bit quoted above. I'd been waiting for someone to say that or something like it. The initial question as to whether there are "major" and "minor" forms of Dorian, and someone's comment that Dorian is "minor," all seem pretty nonsensical to me, at least in the way that I understand modes. Ionian is major, Aeolian is minor, and the rest are whatever they are. I understand the concept that you could think of them as major or minor based on the third, but that seems like a real misapplication of the terms to me. It's not major, that's Ionian... it's not minor, that's aeolian. It's Dorian, period. Just my two cents.
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Gilligan's Island theme song is in Dorian.
"Imagine it in all its primatic colorings, its counterpart in our souls - our souls that are great pianos whose strings, of honey and of steel, the divisions of the rainbow set twanging, loosing on the air great novels of adventure!" - William Carlos Williams
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Ionian is major, Aeolian is minor, and the rest are whatever they are. I understand the concept that you could think of them as major or minor based on the third, but that seems like a real misapplication of the terms to me. It's not so bad -- within the modal vocabulary, major and minor just mean different things, which ones give you a Major or minor third in the triad. The "Major modes" are Ionian, Lydian, and Mixolydian. The "minor" modes are Dorian, Phrygian, and Aeolian. (And Locrian if you want to be picky, I suppose.) I can definitely see that the words Major and minor don't really add anything more to the definition of the modes, though. I wonder sometimes how they caught on as modal definitions. I guess Ionian and Aeolian are just the most commonly used modes, and people assume you are using one or the other of them. Once it's narrowed down to those two, then Major and minor became the only real distinguishing quality between them. I used to wonder what "modes" were, and most of the explanations I got in textbooks went on and on for pages without ever just saying that you just start on one note or the other and go up an octave on the white keys, and that you don't have to go from C to C or A to A. That explained everything for me. I guess that's why music theory is taught on a piano. :-)
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