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Hey Time
You are hilarious. So you'll be kinda like a drummer soloing ?

That's so kool that you will be doing the singing. This is one of the most fun of the exercises especially when you get up to Bird.

Hi Knots
Thanks for your great answer.
What is the theory behind the ii needing a b5 ?

Because when I looked through Dave's progression in Lesson 19 Exercise 3
Gmin6 C7 Fm6
Dave's G min 6 is A Bb D (2 b3 5).

Cheers
cus

Hi custard,

The way I see it, I imagine the ii of the minor key is the vii of the relative key - so it's going to be a diminished triad. So, if it was ii of A minor, then that would be vii of C major (B, D, F). Hence flattened 5th.

Mmm, thanks 10, that's a nice way to think about it. Your example illustrates it well.
But I'm still intrigued as to why ii of a min key =vii of the relative major.

Cus, think about the key signatures. In A minor there are no sharps or flats. Building a II chord in 3rds we get B-D-F-A (where F is the flat 5). The relative major of A minor is C. That same chord, B-D-F-A is VII in C.

In C minor there are 3 flats: Bb, Eb and Ab. Building a II chord in C minor we get D-F-Ab-C (where Ab is the flat 5). We flat the A because of the key sig. That chord, D-F-Ab-C is also VII in C's relative major Eb.

When doing dominants (the V chord) think harmonic minor scale where the 7th degree of the scale is raised; that's how you get G-B(natural)-D-F. The harmonic minor in C: C-D-Eb-F-G-Ab-B natural(the 7th in the scale)

I hope I haven't made things more confusing.
tf

Thank you Time. You've made it a whole lot clearer for me.
Yeah, thinking of the min in terms of building 3rds on the 2nd degree, I get the DFAB that you and Knotty suggested. I will use this voicing since I understand it.

Cus,

I looked at lesson 19.
The g-6 is the 1 of the progression before, not the 2 of the 1 after.
It's A-7b5 D7b9 to G-6
Then we have C7 to F-6

The b5 of the ii matches the b9 of the 5. It matches the scale that it's based on also.

The -6 usually indicates a 1 in a minor key, the same way the M7 indicates a 1 in a major key. Usually.

Many thanks Knotty for looking up Lesson 19 and explaining this so clearly.

Hi custard, Forgive me for stating the obvious, but I just want to be sure that you're OK with relative majors and minors. The clue is in the key signature, as tf says. But let me make it more basic.

If you play the white notes of the piano from C to the next C you get the C major scale. If you start on the 6th note (A) and play from A to A you get the A natural minor scale (if we can for a moments, forget about sharpened 7ths and the like).

So C major and A minor are relatives. If I'm in A minor and I' playing chord i (A minor) then I could equally well see myself as being in C major and playing chord vi. And quite a few tunes do haver between the relative major and minor, to the point you stop caring which you are actually in.

I tend to think in majors more easily (simpler, and I learned them first), so I often view the minor key as being in it's relative major. I try not to think of them as separate keys.

Maybe not everyone thinks like this. But for me, C minor isn't really its own thing - its just a different shade of Eb major. So the switch from C major to C minor is really a switch from C major to Eb major.

I do hope this makes sense.

Thanks for your help Ten. I hadn't ever tried to learn majors-relative minors.
So you are thinking of them a bit like modes, that's interesting, and would make the learning easier I think.

For the purposes of the A minor ii V I sequence, then you would think of the B min 7 F A B D as 4 6 7 9 of C major. The 4 seems weird to me.

To me I think of the F A B D as b5 b7 R b3 of B min.

Now it's my turn: shouldn't you be in bed?



Scales, relative majors and minors are essential knowledge. I think you will get confused delving too much into minors without being sure how they relate to majors. Personally I do this by playing scales. As a kid I did major and harmonic minor, now I do natural minor too as it helps build the theory into my fingers.

Yes, these are basically ionian and aeolian modes, but I don't like using terms that are more complex than they need to be.

Night night.

Hi 10
Thanks, that was my last post for the night !
Even though this concept is relatively new to me, I am becoming cool with it.
So for the A min, I can kinda think of it like C maj 7 #5.

And I've found that doing arrangements of standards has really helped. As you say, it's sometimes hard to tell whether a song is major or minor as they are so related. After doing Never Let Me Go, I will never forget that G min is the relative of Bb major.

Custard - Glad that was helpful. Just another little key to help unlock theory and make it make sense. If you know the scales, then being aware of their relations will only help.

I've done a recording of The Last Time:
http://www.box.net/shared/ghcmbo6b8y
You will hear metronome (I set it fairly slow), myself on solo kazoo and my son on rhythm zakoo. There is an expletive at the end, as he realises I've been recording. All comments appreciated, and I'll let him see them. I think he finds the whole thing quite fun!

I do just try to chip away at the material. Today I was making awful heavy weather of the hanon (lesson 2). The I tried doing it with my eyes closed, and found it much easier. It was like I had to really focus on the pattern to get my fingers there - and the input from my eyes was just confusing me. So I'm visualising the pattern, but not seeing it.

Since then I've tried a few drills and patterns with eyes closed - and I'm quite amazed what I can do, just relying on feel. I'm not trying hard. I also feel that closing my eyes makes my ears work harder.

Encore ! I am still smiling, this is fantastic, I love your phrasing and your duo sounds like a zoo. Sounds like you are having so much fun with the singing.
Congrats !

Yes with the Hanons I also find them easier with my eyes closed, as you say, it makes your ears work harder.

good stuff Tlt!

Thanks, I just showed him the comments. Anything to keep him on side!

That swings!

Tlt,

you might be surprised how much of this stuff you guys will be internalizing while singing those lines. I'd still do 1 or 2 Louis if you got the energy for it. Louis's nice because it really swings, but the lines are easier than later musicians.

I'm hoping some of this will rub off on him. At his age, he absorbs ideas so easily. I don't know if it's a coincidence that he's had a spree of song-writing while I'm studying jazz. That was two songs in the space of a week - admittedly he didn't finish the second song. But his musical ideas are real, and there are genuinely his. It's really humbling to watch him.

As for me, I've been spending more time with my eyes closed at the piano.

It's a strange thing, that I think the point of JOI is not to actually play piano (at least not yet, not for me). The work that's going on is mostly aural. Singing this, singing that. The piano is quite incidental, so far. Except maybe for the hanons, and they don't really count.

If I could I would do it on guitar too, but my knowledge just isn't up to it.

How's everyone doing? Jazzin?

I made some recordings from lesson 2:

lullabye in blue:

http://www.box.net/shared/uztpuyjmvc

and joy of C:

http://www.box.net/shared/qolzesuahr

It struck me how very strange it is to be practising something, but without actually trying to get it to sound as good, or as musical, as possible. For it to sound good, I would need to not sing. Me opening my mouth makes it not sound so good. But that is the exercise.

Some of this stuff is not easy to sing. I don't know what kind of range Dave thinks is normal, but I certainly don't have it! But in listening to myself I realise, even when I go quite badly off key, I correct myself.

I also did some recordings of ii-V-I + arps + metronome, but they are pretty rough. I will post tomorrow if I'm brave enough. If I don't post, you'll know I chickened out.