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Topic Options
#1735307 - 08/17/11 06:17 PM Severe Warranty Problems
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
Greetings all,

I'm an italian student owner of a Brodmann PE 212 bought as brand new just two month ago at the only official italian dealer, but after some playing (just 3/4 hours - classical repertoire), a lot of problems, big and little ones, have emerged. I called a registered (and important) italian technician who said me that it's objectively impossible that it is a brand new instrument, but a "ex demo" at most.

The extimate is the following:

- change all the hammers: they are worn out as they have been used for years (perhaps cleaned before purchase with some invasive technique: in the store they were apparently perfect)

- change the big piano cover: it is irremediably flexed perhaps for the long time it has been keeped open.

- total and big tuning work

The problem is that the dealer is trying to "take time" from two months and if I don't change every time the telephone number, he doesn't aswer me. Initially he said "I will change your piano with an another new one", but now I see that those there were "only words".

What can we do now? Could someone help me? It's a big problem to me.

P.s. I have known after that this dealer has been legally warned by Yamaha.


Edited by Davehammerklavier (08/17/11 11:34 PM)

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#1735317 - 08/17/11 06:23 PM Re: Severe Warranty Problems [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Dara Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/18/09
Posts: 1029
Loc: west coast island, canada
Have you contacted Brodmann Piano Company?
I would recommend getting in touch with them if you haven't done so already.
Document all of your experiences with your piano, the dealer, and those of the piano technician you are working with.

I hope that the situation gets resolved. Keep in touch here on PW to let us know what happens.

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#1735331 - 08/17/11 06:40 PM Re: Severe Warranty Problems [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Dara Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/18/09
Posts: 1029
Loc: west coast island, canada
Something is very wrong here, if this is truly the condition of your "new" Brodmann 212.
There are several Brodmann piano dealers that frequent this forum - some currently online here. Perhaps they will have a suggestion.

The way you've put things, doesn't reflect very well on your piano dealer or the Brodmann Company.
Before making any judgement though it is important to act immediately, document all information, and be open to a complete resolution of this problem.
If you bought a new Brodmann you should certainly expect to receive one in mint condition.
Anything less than this is entirely unsatisfactory, in my opinion.

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#1735335 - 08/17/11 06:45 PM Re: Severe Warranty Problems [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
He said "I have to take it from the packaging", but a new brodmann has not a flexed and warp cover... You see, in the store it's not easy to see that things... and he assured me that it was brand new.


Edited by Davehammerklavier (08/17/11 06:49 PM)

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#1735342 - 08/17/11 06:52 PM Re: Severe Warranty Problems [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Dara Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/18/09
Posts: 1029
Loc: west coast island, canada
Are there any piano dealers on board, who care to respond to Davehammerklavier , and offer any advice?

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#1735343 - 08/17/11 06:54 PM Re: Severe Warranty Problems [Re: Dara]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
Originally Posted By: Dara
Are there any piano dealers on board, who care to respond to Davehammerklavier , and offer any advice?



Thank you very much indeed... very kind and gentle.

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#1735344 - 08/17/11 06:55 PM Re: Severe Warranty Problems [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5276
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Who is the dealer?
_________________________
website

mp3\wav files

AvantGrand N3, CP5

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#1735346 - 08/17/11 06:57 PM Re: Severe Warranty Problems [Re: Dave Horne]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
Who is the dealer?


I would not mention him at the moment. I think that in my country is called "defamation".

I can say that he is the official and only dealer for that brand.

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#1735347 - 08/17/11 06:59 PM Re: Severe Warranty Problems [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Dara Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/18/09
Posts: 1029
Loc: west coast island, canada
According to Brodmann's website the Italian distributor is:

Pianoforti Di Marco
Distributor
Via Aquileia 114
33052, Cervignano del Friuli (Ud), Italy
C: 01603820307
T: 330480600
F: 043193174
info@pianofortidimarco.it
www.pianofortidimarco.it

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#1735348 - 08/17/11 06:59 PM Re: Severe Warranty Problems [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
Evidently......

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#1735350 - 08/17/11 07:03 PM Re: Severe Warranty Problems [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
And an another italian owner has also the same problem at the hammers...

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#1735351 - 08/17/11 07:03 PM Re: Severe Warranty Problems [Re: Davehammerklavier]
PianoWorksATL Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/19/09
Posts: 2705
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Brodmann should have records regarding the piano's production date and shipping history that can be tracked via the serial number. That is a place to start. It would also reveal if the warranty on the piano was ever registered (through a sale). If it's never been sold, it is technically new, though that is not reassuring at this point. Many dealers loan or rent instruments for some period of time before selling, which should be (and usually is) disclosed to the purchaser, but do not void the warranty.

If the piano was acquired by the dealer under some other circumstances, like B-stock, or a warranty replacement with any special warranty restrictions, that also should be disclosed. At the moment, your problem is still with your dealer. Learning any of the specific history of the instrument from Brodmann will help you to know their share in responsibility to you. I would not normally raise these questions, but you already feel the dealer is dodging you.

I'm very curious about the tuning problems you mention. This can have a wide range of causes from minor to major. The issue with the lid is straight forward, so long as you are entitled to the warranty. The issue with the hammers is tougher. You selected the piano with the hammers...they didn't break. Again, the primary issue here is the dealer's responsibility to disclose; hammer wear is not a warranty issue.

Many manufacturer's will step up even in the face of a bad dealer even if they were also misled or misrepresented. If that's the case, it's not fair to you or the manufacturer, and legal action against the dealer may be your solution of last resort. I wish you luck in achieving a resolution.
_________________________
Sam Bennett
PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
Bösendorfer, Estonia, Seiler, Grotrian, Weber & Hailun
Pre-Owned: Yamaha, Kawai, Steinway & other fine pianos
Full Restoration Shop
www.PianoWorks.com
www.youtube.com/PianoWorksAtlanta

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#1735352 - 08/17/11 07:06 PM Re: Severe Warranty Problems [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Dara Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/18/09
Posts: 1029
Loc: west coast island, canada
I don't think you need worry about defamation.
If all that you have presented here ( I noticed you already deleted one of your posts here in this thread) is correct,
than I believe you are entitled to a replacement with a brand new Brodmann212 or a complete resolution of the state of your current piano.

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#1735357 - 08/17/11 07:17 PM Re: Severe Warranty Problems [Re: PianoWorksATL]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
Thank You very much indeed.

The hammers seemed perfect and the sound very good (perhaps somehow too soft in the attack of the bass notes). the fact is that after an afternoon they have been marked if they had been used for years and years: I could't predict that.

Similarly the piano cover started to be imperfect in the black finish when I started to keep close the cover (in the store they keep the piano open): the technician said me that the cover started now to straighten itself and so the paint, stretched by the time that it was keep open, reveals now imperfections as "ladders".

Also the keys trims are marked as they were used for a lot of years: my never restored 1921 upright has perfect trims in comparison.

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#1735358 - 08/17/11 07:17 PM Re: Severe Warranty Problems [Re: Davehammerklavier]
master88er Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/07
Posts: 859
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Buona Notte Dave:

Excuse my poor Italian. I am very sorry to hear about the problems you are having. If it was represented to you that you were purchasing a new piano, there is no excuse for the items you describe to be happening. Brodmann has a very specific "dealer preparation" sheet that they insist be followed before a piano is delivered to a customer. It is obvious that this was not completed, and in fact it seems like you may not have a new piano.

I would contact the Brodmann factory, Mr. Christian Hoeferl, and explain the problems you are having. Here is their contact information:

Email Address: office@brodmann-pianos.com
Vienna Telephone #: 43 (1) 890 32 03-15
Address: J.B Piano GmbH Austria, Kudlichgasse 24, A-1100 Wien

If none of those work, send me a PM and I will put you in direct contact with the American distributor.
_________________________
Russell I. Kassman
R.KASSMAN, Purveyor of Fine Pianos
Berkeley, CA

FORMER US Rep.for C.Bechstein

SF Area Dealer: Steingraeber•Grotrian•Sauter•Estonia•Kayserburg•Baldwin•Brodmann•Ritmüller
www.rkassman.com
russell@rkassman.com
510.558.0765

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#1735359 - 08/17/11 07:22 PM Re: Severe Warranty Problems [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Monica K. Online   blank

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17773
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
I'm sorry to hear of the problems with your piano, DaveHammerKlavier. frown A new piano should be a time of joy, not aggravation.

However, I think your thread is better titled "Severe Dealer Problems," not "Severe Warranty Problems." The issues you are describing, as others have noted, are with the dealer and how he represented this piano to you. In the U.S., a flurry of increasingly scary looking letters from a lawyer would probably get the desired results, especially if he is avoiding your phone calls. I'm not sure how such things are resolved in Italy.
_________________________
Mason & Hamlin A -- 91997
My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/pianomonica

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#1735360 - 08/17/11 07:22 PM Re: Severe Warranty Problems [Re: Dara]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
In Italy everything is more "rhetorical" and problematic (just see our political situation) and the owners rights are very difficult to assert because anyone has it's own opinion and hardly someone takes a stand.

I started to ask for the warranty coverage only (technician asked me a lot of money)... was the dealer that suggested me the total replacement of the instrument.


Edited by Davehammerklavier (08/17/11 07:33 PM)

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#1735368 - 08/17/11 07:32 PM Re: Severe Warranty Problems [Re: master88er]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
Thank You very much indeed. Here things are unfortunately very very different and a student like me has to do everything by himself.

Master88er, I have forwarded the e-mail that I sent to Mr. Hoferl to the address that you have indicated, but, as said in a previous post of mine (I deleted that one), I think that the dealer guessed my intentions and informed in time the Brodmann headquarter that I'm just a troublesome: they have never answered me again since I said something about my problems.

I write You a PM.


Edited by Davehammerklavier (08/17/11 11:50 PM)

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#1735370 - 08/17/11 07:36 PM Re: Severe Warranty Problems [Re: Davehammerklavier]
master88er Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/07
Posts: 859
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Originally Posted By: Davehammerklavier
Thank You very much indeed. Nobody has helped me as all of You in few minutes. Here things are unfortunately very very different and a student like me has to do everything by himself.

Master88er, I have forwarded the e-mail that I sent to Mr. Hoferl to the address that you have indicated, but, as said in a previous post of mine (I deleted that one), I think that the dealer guessed my intentions and informed in time the Brodmann headquarter that I'm just a troublesome: they have never answered me again since I said something about my problems.

I write You a PM.


Dave,

I made some inquiries and learned that Mr. Hoeferl is on vacation in Croatia at the moment. BUT, Chris Venables (who often posts on this forum) is the European distributor for Brodmann, and I have asked the US Rep. to send him an email about your issues. You can also PM him through this site. His PW name is ChrisVenables.
_________________________
Russell I. Kassman
R.KASSMAN, Purveyor of Fine Pianos
Berkeley, CA

FORMER US Rep.for C.Bechstein

SF Area Dealer: Steingraeber•Grotrian•Sauter•Estonia•Kayserburg•Baldwin•Brodmann•Ritmüller
www.rkassman.com
russell@rkassman.com
510.558.0765

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#1735371 - 08/17/11 07:37 PM Re: Severe Warranty Problems [Re: master88er]
Dara Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/18/09
Posts: 1029
Loc: west coast island, canada
thumb

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#1735374 - 08/17/11 07:41 PM Re: Severe Warranty Problems [Re: Monica K.]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
Originally Posted By: Monica K.
I'm sorry to hear of the problems with your piano, DaveHammerKlavier. frown A new piano should be a time of joy, not aggravation.

However, I think your thread is better titled "Severe Dealer Problems," not "Severe Warranty Problems." The issues you are describing, as others have noted, are with the dealer and how he represented this piano to you. In the U.S., a flurry of increasingly scary looking letters from a lawyer would probably get the desired results, especially if he is avoiding your phone calls. I'm not sure how such things are resolved in Italy.


Monica, I dont' know if he is worried about letters from lawyers, perhaps no... Yamaha Music Europe Branch Italy has already legally warned him for the sale of tampered grands (there is an official announcement on their italian web site really), but he has some of the biggest stores in Italy. Somehow he comes out unscathed.

Perhaps he does the same things made on Yamahas also with Brodmanns...


Edited by Davehammerklavier (08/17/11 07:56 PM)

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#1735385 - 08/17/11 07:59 PM Re: Severe Warranty Problems [Re: master88er]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
Originally Posted By: master88er
Originally Posted By: Davehammerklavier
Thank You very much indeed. Nobody has helped me as all of You in few minutes. Here things are unfortunately very very different and a student like me has to do everything by himself.

Master88er, I have forwarded the e-mail that I sent to Mr. Hoferl to the address that you have indicated, but, as said in a previous post of mine (I deleted that one), I think that the dealer guessed my intentions and informed in time the Brodmann headquarter that I'm just a troublesome: they have never answered me again since I said something about my problems.

I write You a PM.


Dave,

I made some inquiries and learned that Mr. Hoeferl is on vacation in Croatia at the moment. BUT, Chris Venables (who often posts on this forum) is the European distributor for Brodmann, and I have asked the US Rep. to send him an email about your issues. You can also PM him through this site. His PW name is ChrisVenables.


Very gentle.

The question is that one now: if Hoferl is in Croatia, Brodmann factory works anyway? The fact that the dealer refers continually the replacement date is due to the factory vacation, or a "taking time" attempt?


Edited by Davehammerklavier (08/17/11 08:06 PM)

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#1735388 - 08/17/11 08:04 PM Re: Severe Warranty Problems [Re: Davehammerklavier]
master88er Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/07
Posts: 859
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Davide:

It may very well be that the Vienna business office is closed for vacation, but I don't honestly know for sure. I don't think the production facility in China is closed except for lunch smirk. I have sent private emails to the US Distributor and PR Manager, and have given them your direct email as well. You should be hearing something in a day or two.

Again, I suggest you also contact Chris Venables through the PW site.


Edited by master88er (08/17/11 08:05 PM)
_________________________
Russell I. Kassman
R.KASSMAN, Purveyor of Fine Pianos
Berkeley, CA

FORMER US Rep.for C.Bechstein

SF Area Dealer: Steingraeber•Grotrian•Sauter•Estonia•Kayserburg•Baldwin•Brodmann•Ritmüller
www.rkassman.com
russell@rkassman.com
510.558.0765

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#1735390 - 08/17/11 08:09 PM Re: Severe Warranty Problems [Re: master88er]
Davehammerklavier Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 88
Originally Posted By: master88er
Davide:

It may very well be that the Vienna business office is closed for vacation, but I don't honestly know for sure. I don't think the production facility in China is closed except for lunch smirk. I have sent private emails to the US Distributor and PR Manager, and have given them your direct email as well. You should be hearing something in a day or two.

Again, I suggest you also contact Chris Venables through the PW site.


Thank You again. I'll write to Mr. Venables and we update the situation next days (hoping for good news).

Thank You very much indeed! See You soon!

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#1735508 - 08/18/11 12:24 AM Re: Severe Warranty Problems [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Jeff Clef Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 4414
Loc: San Jose, CA
One thing that might help you, as long as the August vacation is underway, is to gather all your paperwork from the sale (invoice, registration card, your proof of payment, etc), as well as the estimate and bill from the independent inspection, and photos showing the hammers, lid, felts, fallboard, serial number, etc. Besides these things, write a concise narrative of your contacts with the dealer, including dates, what was discussed, and what happened as a result.

Having the copies of these documents ready to ship, will help the manufacturer's representative to handle your claim. If it were to come to legal action, your lawyer, and ultimately the courts would want the same documents. You will have to prove up your claim, just as you would for any other case.

I hope it goes well for you.
_________________________
Clef


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#1735515 - 08/18/11 12:40 AM Re: Severe Warranty Problems [Re: Davehammerklavier]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14138
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
The first thing here is that the piano needs to be inspected by an independent, qualified technician as soon as possible.

Knowing Christian for many years very well, this is the very first thing he would put into place for you.

August is unfortunately the month In Europe when many companies close down for holidays.

You have several people here [including me] looking out for your interest and I have no doubt that this matter will be concluded to your full satisfaction.

Let's get to the buttom of this.

Norbert
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#1735533 - 08/18/11 01:18 AM Re: Severe Warranty Problems [Re: Davehammerklavier]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21445
Loc: Oakland
There is something fishy about this topic. Hammers cannot get a lot of use in just a couple of days. A lid will flex a bit no matter what you do. A new piano can be expected to get out of tune. I would not bet on whether the piano has problems or the original poster does.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1735597 - 08/18/11 04:38 AM Re: Severe Warranty Problems [Re: BDB]
Gregor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 434
Loc: Münster, Germany
Originally Posted By: BDB
I would not bet on whether the piano has problems or the original poster does.


One possibility: the OP purchased the brand new piano from the showroom, but a used and worn out piano was delivered.

Another possibility: the technician who inspected the piano is not so competent or honest as expected and has furthermore interest to make money. Perhaps he is a personal enemy of the dealer?

Not a possibility: hammers get worn out within a few hours.

Many Chinese grand pianos have a lid with a finish that is not so perfect like a mirror surface. When you look at a lid against the sun light you will notice some minor "waves". Are we talking about that? BTW, that´s one reason why Chinese pianos are much cheaper than German pianos.

I don´t want to do wrong to the OP Dave. But could it be that you are overly sensitive about issues that are normal for a piano in that price range?

Gregor
_________________________
piano tech - tuner - dealer
Münster, Germany
www.weldert.de

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#1735616 - 08/18/11 05:41 AM Re: Severe Warranty Problems [Re: Gregor]
ChrisVenables Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 727
Loc: Hampshire, England
Sorry, just noticed this: what's the serial number of the piano please?
_________________________
Tech. & Partner: Venables Pianos
Yamaha Piano UK main dealer and Grand Piano Centre
Stocking new Yamaha, Brodmann and Venables & Son

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#1735622 - 08/18/11 06:16 AM Re: Severe Warranty Problems [Re: master88er]
ChrisVenables Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 727
Loc: Hampshire, England
Originally Posted By: master88er

Dave,

I made some inquiries and learned that Mr. Hoeferl is on vacation in Croatia at the moment. BUT, Chris Venables (who often posts on this forum) is the European distributor for Brodmann, and I have asked the US Rep. to send him an email about your issues. You can also PM him through this site. His PW name is ChrisVenables.


Hi Russell

I'll help as best I can with this, but to set the record straight, I am not the European distributor, I'm the distributor in England and Wales.

Regards.
_________________________
Tech. & Partner: Venables Pianos
Yamaha Piano UK main dealer and Grand Piano Centre
Stocking new Yamaha, Brodmann and Venables & Son

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