Hello everyone,

(This is a re-post from the Adult Beginners forum)

Long story short, I studied the classical piano for 10 years.
Then I went off to study (leaving back my acoustic upright Yamaha).
Then life took over and I never looked back. Until now.
It has been 15 years now and it's now or never.

I plan to get my acoustic moved to my place at some point but a lot of moving around is involved so I don't see that happening really soon.

Having said that, I need a digital piano. To get my stiff fingers up and running again, to be able to play at 2 o'clock in the morning, then start moving this around to a friend's place to play together (almost all my friends are musicians), then perhaps try recording a track or two for theater plays (I'm into theater as a hobby).

First I thought about buying a mere Yamaha P-95 at 550 euros. Then I realized I would accomplish nothing by buying something cheap that would leave me disappointed and unmotivated.

Then Roland SuperNATURAL piano engine seemed to be a decent compromise to the acoustic piano sound and feel so I narrowed it down to

1. Roland FP-4F (thomman - not available where I live)
or
2. Roland RD-300NX + Behringer ms-40 (included in the deal)

Note: I get both options at the same price.

No matter how much I look into this I find myself at square zero (at some point someone says "Hey, a Kurzveil is better", or "Why don't you try the Kawai MP-6" or "Why don't you get the FP-7F instead?", "A Korg SV-1 is the best choice if you can spare the money", "A Kurzveil SP2X is the best and cheapest choice"; the list is endless :-) ).

Some things I can understand for myself: e.g. FP-7F's 24 kilos seem too much for my back. But the question still remains: Which one would be closer to my needs + providing me more time until the first time I feel "Hm, I need to buy something else"?

Any clearer view on this would be honestly appreciated, really.
I'm trying to find the right answer. Or - better still - the right questions...

From what I've read here the FP-4F is very stripped down when compared to the older FP-4. Many say the built-in speakers are pretty lame.

The RD-300NX likely has a more straightforward user interface, similar to the RD-700NX. The RD-300NX also has SN EPs. It is physically longer though, so you might have a hard time finding a suitable case for it.

I believe both have the same keys (Ivory Feel-G with escapement) and the same single SN AP voice ("Concert" on the RD-700NX).

So I have read about the speakers, yes.

Which is a reason to go for the RD-300NX, if I'm to replace the FP-4F ones very soon (but then having to carry the built-in speakers around).

Hm.

The FP4F is shorter in length due to no modulation joystick, which may or may not be a factor for you. It's lighter too I think.

The 300 also includes some Supernatural electric piano sounds and is a better MIDI controller if you need that. But the basic piano tone and keyboard feel are identical on both.

This basic Supernatural tone is extremely high quality, and outstrips the Kurzweil or Korg SV-1 by some distance. The Kawai MP-6 has a great action by all accounts, but the piano sound is not considered as high quality as the Supernatural Roland's.

As for the built-in speakers in the FP4F - well they probably won't do for much more except home practice, but nonetheless I find it nice to take the headphones off occasionally and just play.

They're also convenient if you're taking the piano somewhere where there might be an impromptu singsong or suchlike! I dunno, I just like having them.

Having a good surface to reflect the sound off of really helps the speakers on the FP-4F. I guess that would be my criticism of them is that they seem more directional than some dp speaker arrangements aimed at or at least ported in the direction of the pianist.

I like the extras on the 300NX, so I guess a fair question is which would you dislike more...having to move around the extra speakers or the actual sound quality of the onboard speakers on the FP-4F?

I guess my assessment of the speakers is that they sound nice, but not quite what I'd hope on a dp with that price tag. Separate monitors are better than almost any built-in anyway.

Option 3, if you don't plan on using the specific extras of the 300NX, get the FP-4F + the monitors set up only for your home use. They seem to be selling here for $150-$165 which isn't a budget killer. You're then highly portable and happy at home.

Sam, what is the brand/model of the monitors?

James
x

For the moment this is not an option since small "no budget killers" have brought me a 900 euros off budget so perhaps in the future, yes.

From what I understand, I might check the following:
- Tomorrow I am contacting all Roland dealers in Athens; since there is no FP-4F to try out perhaps I can find an RD-300NX (at last).
- Since everyone comments on how long the RD-300NX is, I am measuring my car space today. Having a small Seat Ibiza I understand that getting any extras is good but needing a degree in architecture in order to fit stuff in the car is a killer.

Another thing I am wondering of: Is it possible to upgrade a keyboard's sounds at some point? I mean, some say that the brass instruments on the RD-300NX are a joke. Can one change that in the future or once you get it you're stuck with it?
(might be a silly question but I have to ask)

Ah, thanks - I misinterpreted the post.

Cheers,
James
x

You're stuck with it. (The strings in the RD-700NX are kind of a joke BTW). AFAIK only Nord allows you to mix and match the voices in their freely downloadable library.

Roland did come out with a SN Brass expansion card, but AFAIK it is only for the Workstations. Actually, I've never played with the SN Brass sounds or explored the reviews for comparison. I read they come in the Jupiter-80.

Leaning towards the RD-300NX+ external speakers at the moment, I also see there is no sequencer while there is one on the FP-4F model. And no session partner.

Trying to get this straight, the sequencer you need in order to store what you actually play on the spot, have I got this right in my head?

Whereas with the RD-300NX you need to connect the whole thing with a computer to actually record your tracks. Or a MIDI controller? Or is it that you don't need a MIDI controller with the RD-300NX since it can serve as one?

Reading the manual, the RD-300NX looks the same (recording- and playback-wise) as the RD-700NX.

If true, you can:
- Record your playing to WAV audio.
- Play WAV and MP3 audio files.
- Play MIDI files.

But (idiotically) you can't:
- Record MIDI files without an external sequencer.
- Simultaneously play MIDI and record WAV.

[EDIT] It seems you can't record WAV on the RD-300NX, my bad!

I don't get it. The FP-4F which is supposed to be a more "domestic" keyboard (in comparison to RD-300NX that seems to be made more for gigs) you have a sequencer and you can record MIDI.

And you can't do it in RD-300NX?

Does that make sense?

The RD-300NX is more of a live performance board, so it makes some kind of sense I guess. But leaving out basic features on high end models that you often find on many lower level DPs (MIDI recording, MIDI => WAV rendering) strikes me as stupid, particularly when everyone knows they could easily do it if they wanted to.

All DPs are an amalgam of features, but it seems that in the past engineering teams were busy giving us as many features as they could for the price. These days feature sets are managed by insane monkeys (see the Yamaha CP1/5/50 for a particularly egregious example) so engineers probably spend much of their time in reverse value-added mode: commenting out otherwise useful code and prying much needed sample FLASH off of boards.

Which low-end boards support MIDI -> WAV recording?

James
x

I've played both and from a just a *player perspective* I preferred the 300.
Can't give you any elaborate reason other then it just felt better and sounded a little smoother. I know the specs are almost identical with regard to the action, but the 300 felt more substantial to me.

It would be nice to have the speakers on the 4F though.

Thanks, that's good to know ;-)



But this strikes me as odd: Why would you like the external speakers on the 4F since you preferred the 300NX in the first place?

I've looked through all manuals and voila:

----- FP-4F MANUAL (FP-4F_e02_W) -----
"You can record your performance.
You can play back a recorded performance to evaluate your own playing, or to play along with the recorded performance."
In the specifications: Internal Memory: Max. 99 songs, Save Song: Standard MIDI Files (Format 0)).

----- RD-700NX MANUAL (RD-700NX_e02_W) -----
As correctly stated by Dewster regarding RD-700NX:
[Recorder Section]
File Format Audio File: WAV (44.1 kHz, 16-bit linear)

*BUT:*
----- RD-300NX MANUAL (RD-300NX_OM) -----
Full specifications:
Digital Piano: RD-300NX
Keyboard Section
Keyboard 88 keys (Ivory Feel Keyboard with Escapement)
Sound Generator Section
Maximum Polyphony 128 voices
Parts Live Set (3 layers) +16 parts
Sound Generator
SuperNATURAL Piano
SuperNATURAL (E. PIANO)
PCM Sound Generator
GM2 (for SMF Playback)
Live Set
Preset: 200
User: 60
Effects
Multi-Effects: 78 types
Reverb: 6 types
Chorus: 3 types
3-band Compressor
3-band Digital Equalizer
SMF/Audio File Player
File Format
Standard MIDI File: format-0/1
Audio File: WAV (44.1 kHz, 16-bit linear)
Others
Rhythm Pattern 200 patterns
Controllers
LAYER LEVEL slider x 3
EQUALIZER knobs
Pitch Bend/Modulation lever
S1/S2 Buttons (Assignable)
Display 128 x 64 dots graphic LCD (with backlit)
Connectors
OUTPUT Jacks (L/MONO, R): 1/4-inch phone type
DAMPER Pedal Jack
CONTROL Pedal Jack (FC1, FC2)
MIDI Connectors (IN, OUT)
USB Connectors (MIDI, Memory)
PHONES Jack: Stereo 1/4 inch phone type
DC IN Jack
Power Supply DC 9V (AC adaptor)
Power Consumption 11 W
Dimensions
1,438 (W) × 337 (D) × 141 (H) mm
56-5/8 (W) x 13-5/16 (D) x 5-9/16 (H) inches
Weight
17.5 kg
(38 lbs 10 oz)
Accessories
Owner’s Manual
Damper Pedal (capable of continuous detection)
AC Adaptor, Power Cord

I cannot find anything having to do with recording. Which, to be honest, might be a showstopper for the RD-300NX.

In a few words: In FP-4F and RD-700NX you can record MIDI, while in RD-300NX you can only do it while connected to a computer (thinking out loud here, please correct me if I'm wrong). I also checked out the RD-300/700GX series and it seems that neither can record MIDI without an external MIDI sequencer also.

If I understand this correctly, you are unlikely to use your internal sequencer to record anything since you can always do it better through a PC and software. Nevertheless, as wisely stated by a musician friend of mine (he recently got a Yamaha P-155 that was not bad either, that was the first keyboard I tried), "You will always trust software to record your music. But you need the keyboard to be able to record _something_ at least; it's your notepad for new ideas; there is no time to connect the cable and turn on the PC when that comes".

So, to sum this up:

FP-4F:
------
+ Internal speakers (highly portable)
+ Dimensions (a bit lighter and smaller)
+ Internal sequencer (--> MIDI)
+ Session partner (why not?)
+ Always able to use external speakers on this
- Ivory Feel-G Keyboard

RD-300NX:
---------
+ SUPERNATURAL E.Piano
+ Seems to have way more functions (that I cannot understand, however)
+ Ivory Feel Keyboard with Escapement
- A bit heavier and longer
- No sequencer
+ External speakers in the deal
- Cannot live without the speakers
- (A personal touch) May it be that I'm getting a ton of stuff I'll never use?

Despite the specs, could the two keyboards be the same (touch-wise) given what sh1 says?
On the other hand, can this be the reason for:

I don't know if I'm right in the above. It seems more clear, however.

(Phew. Too much brain input; I need a beer.)

To me, the 300 and the 700 have very different keyboard feel.

I own a rd700GX, and previously a rd700sx (for about 5 years), but have always wanted to get a 300 instead because of its smaller cost, and lighter weight.

But every time I went to a store and played a 300, after a few moments it became work i.e. uninspiring for me to play, whereas the 700 series generated the opposite, i.e. they "pulled" the music out of me, made me play better.

So this has not been my personal experience: (Such personal things are very subjective...go play all pianos a lot before you buy)

I was "thinking out loud" in regard to the speakers. I like having the speakers on any small keyboard for convenience sake when gigging.

For example-- when you a quick rehearsal with a singer. If you're doing a wedding ceremony/cocktail hour in one room and the band is set up in the other. It just saves having to schlep a speaker around. The speakers were invaluable on my P120.

And fwiw--to me the 700 and 300 NX are world's apart. If it's in your budget and aren't moving it around, I'd opt for the 700NX in a minute over the 300.

Thanks for the input rocket88; I was wondering how the PHA III keyboard (700NX) compares to RD-300NX's one.

However, it's my fault for quoting just a short sentence of sh1's words:
So here's the original where sh1 comments on FP-4F and RD-300NX having similar keyboard feel. (My apologies to sh1...)



In other news, I called ALL Athens Roland dealers today and it seems that best case scenario for me in order to get my hands on a RD-300NX without having to necessarily buy it afterwards is travel 300 kms (I'm laughing; sincerely, I am laughing). Just two of them will get back to me tomorrow.

In other news, I might as well learn to swim by reading "Swimming Techniques 101" or become a surgeon by watching a DoItYourself tape. Argh.

Just a small input here: there is no true sequencer in there... it just records (in MIDI) your single-pass performance. You cannot:
- Edit it in any way
- Record a second track over it (with the same or any other instrument). Its a 1 track recording.

So, I wouldn't call it a sequencer at all!
Rafa.

sh1 is correct that they have the same spec keyboard. And Dave's assessment is entirely reasonable (even if you remove obvious variables that could affect his perception) as I have experienced this phenomenon on other dp's that share technology/specs. The first time I played the 300NX, I was very unsure about the new action, but it was on a 2-tier stand sitting over a 700NX. Perhaps Dave's experience is, shall we say, his preference by degrees; more an observation than a quantifiable quality. The more rugged construction of the 300NX could be responsible. The FP's are tough but the RD's are tougher. I'd put that on your list of +/-.

At this point, if the 300NX seems missing something you need, you should learn exactly what the "extras" are and if you want/need them? You listed the "extras" as both a + and -, so I think resolving that will help you get closer to a decision.

So, to clarify:

- the RD-700NX can playback and record WAV audio.
- the RD-300NX can only playback WAV audio.

Is this correct?

Cheers,
James
x

From my point of view, yes.

RD-300NX
--------
Playback:
Standard MIDI File: format-0/1
Audio File: WAV (44.1 kHz, 16-bit linear)
Recorder: (None)

RD-700NX
--------
Playback:
Standard MIDI File: format-0/1
Audio File: WAV (44.1 kHz, 16-bit linear), MP3
Recorder:
File Format Audio File: WAV (44.1 kHz, 16-bit linear)

True, but who really needs / wants to do multi-tracking, much less MIDI editing, on a DP? I would rather record to a MIDI file on a thumb drive, then take that over to a PC for proper editing.

Holy crap, the RD-300NX can't record WAV! I missed that in the manual. Thanks for pointing this out, and I'm sorry for accidentally spreading misinformation.

I just don't see how the actions between the 300NX and the FP4F can be any different - they're both listed as Ivory Feel-G with Escapement. Roland are putting this same action in both boards.

I doubt they're manufacturing subtley different versions of this, although they may feel different to the player in heavier casings (as the 300NX is compared to the FP4F)

I missed it too at first, as I thought that "it must be able to record record at least something, one type of file, anything".

But it seems that it doesnt

Perhaps as a more advanced features keyboard you are bound to use it in a context where you have an external MIDI sequencer or you are in a studio or, I don't know.

But, still, am I the only one considering this a major flaw?

I see it as a major flaw as well. And our RD-700NX not having at least a simple MIDI recorder, as well as MIDI => WAV rendering (even though it can play MIDI and record WAV, but not do both at the same time) has me shopping around for used cheap laptops. Grrr.

I was even thinking of building a simple MIDI recorder / player with an FPGA evaluation board (I have a few laying around on my workbench). No need for any MIDI protocol intelligence if it simply deals with bytes and timing. I was thinking it could store the MIDI byte along with a 24 bit timing value, with the timing value used to retrieve the byte at playback. 0.1 ms resolution would give a longest possible silence of ~27 minutes before the 24 bit timer rolls over.

One can get around the need for file system support by only using it as a real-time record / playback device - record the DP, play back to a PC sequencer, edit on PC, record the PC sequencer output, play back on DP. Kind of a MIDI mule (which is what I was going to name it if I built it).

Perhaps I'm missing something here, but what would be the point? Couldn't you just connect the DP and PC directly? If you're doing to build a portable MIDI player/recorder, it needs to support USB storage in my opinion.

Do it man - the cat's getting bored.

Cheers,
James
x

DP is upstairs, PCs are downstairs. It's a bit less effort bringing the NX to the PCs (rather than vice versa) but still more than I like to expend for quick tests and the like.


USB file system support means an imbedded processor and Linux.

A simple real-time player / recorder is just a bidirectional serial port, buffering in RAM, transfer to / from SPI FLASH, and a few state machines. I could probably build it in a week or so, but it's enough effort that I keep putting it off. I'm kind of shocked that there isn't at least one inexpensive commercial solution, but I guess laptops killed the portable sequencer market.

Hello everyone,

Just to say I went for the FP4F after all for all the reasons mentioned above, I have ordered it and it's already on its way from Germany.

I'm acting like a baby lately, I can't wait to get it!

A big thanks to everyone for pointing the (perhaps) obvious to an untrained eye.

Good luck with your new board hypercube, I'm sure you'll enjoy it! What I love about my FP4F is the weight...it's really very light for an 88-note weighted digital piano. My back is already thanking me for it.

However - and I knew this before I bought it - the action itself is quite 'heavy'. If you're looking to strengthen your fingers it will certainly do this...I find it a breeze playing pieces on other keyboards once I've mastered them on the FP4F. I'm seeing this as a positive at the moment!

Thanks sh1!

I happen to suffer from a sailing back injury at the moment so I'm already thanking fate for making me choose the light version ;-)

I know, the original FP-4 felt heavy to the fingers but also realistic which was also a plus for me. The FP-4 is the only one I could get my hands on so I suppose I'm waiting for something similar from the FP-4F too. Playing on acoustic pianos is something I'm working on again; plus I'll move my acoustic upright Yamaha to my place, at some point. So I was looking for a heavy DP in the first place...