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#1738058 - 08/22/11 01:33 AM Re: Give me something to sight read! [Re: jeffreyjones]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19292
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
....I also have one of the Studies and I can't even begin to read through it.

Hey, folks -- he's human!!! grin
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"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1738064 - 08/22/11 02:15 AM Re: Give me something to sight read! [Re: Mark_C]
jeffreyjones Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 2229
Loc: San Jose, CA
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
....I also have one of the Studies and I can't even begin to read through it.

Hey, folks -- he's human!!! grin


Was there ever any doubt about that? Though I wonder about Ives.

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#1738065 - 08/22/11 02:25 AM Re: Give me something to sight read! [Re: jeffreyjones]
antony Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 392
Loc: Portland, OR
Bravo, Jeffrey. That was fun(for me at least)

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#1738222 - 08/22/11 09:55 AM Re: Give me something to sight read! [Re: jeffreyjones]
Alice3520 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/14/09
Posts: 1
Bravo! You are amazing! I especially enjoyed the Liszt-Wagner one.

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#1738226 - 08/22/11 10:04 AM Re: Give me something to sight read! [Re: jeffreyjones]
Nikolas Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 4994
Loc: Europe
I'll post a few pages shortly... It's going to be VERY tough Jeffrey, and not the whole work, because I simply can't post the whole work, but I can't resist a good challenge. (PS. It's contemporary... brrr....)
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#1738232 - 08/22/11 10:16 AM Re: Give me something to sight read! [Re: jeffreyjones]
MathTeacher Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/25/11
Posts: 256
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Some questions I need to ask you JeffreyJones, since I'm trying to become like you:

1) How many years have you been practising sightreading?
2) Do you count in your head as you sightread, and if not, how do you deal with a measure that has a very tricky rhythm?
3) How far ahead do you look generally?
4) How many outer and inner ledger lines do you have memorized by heart, and accordingly what range of notes can you play blindly?
5) What kind of piece is the most challenging for you to sightread? (e.g. heavy and frequent two-handed chords, scattered notes everywhere, polyrhythmic, etc...)

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#1738253 - 08/22/11 10:44 AM Re: Give me something to sight read! [Re: MathTeacher]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19097
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: MathTeacher
Some questions I need to ask you JeffreyJones, since I'm trying to become like you:

1) How many years have you been practising sightreading?
I bet he'll say something like he
Click to reveal..
never "practiced" or "worked" at sight reading, but he's been doing tons of it since he became interested in music and the music was available.


Edited by pianoloverus (08/22/11 10:50 AM)

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#1738286 - 08/22/11 11:31 AM Re: Give me something to sight read! [Re: MathTeacher]
jeffreyjones Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 2229
Loc: San Jose, CA
Originally Posted By: MathTeacher
Some questions I need to ask you JeffreyJones, since I'm trying to become like you:

1) How many years have you been practising sightreading? You don't practice it, you do it, at whatever tempo you feel comfortable at. It doesn't matter if it's as fast as I do it, as long as it's at a tempo where you can be reasonably accurate.
2) Do you count in your head as you sightread, and if not, how do you deal with a measure that has a very tricky rhythm? I practiced all of the tricky rhythms already in other pieces, so when I see them, it's already familiar.
3) How far ahead do you look generally? Not at all.
4) How many outer and inner ledger lines do you have memorized by heart, and accordingly what range of notes can you play blindly? Up to 6 ledger lines each direction for the outer ranges. Going above the bass or below the treble, probably 3-4, that's not as important.
5) What kind of piece is the most challenging for you to sightread? (e.g. heavy and frequent two-handed chords, scattered notes everywhere, polyrhythmic, etc...) Counterpoint! There's no way to predict the patterns.

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#1738288 - 08/22/11 11:37 AM Re: Give me something to sight read! [Re: jeffreyjones]
Nikolas Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 4994
Loc: Europe
There you go Jeffrey:

www.nikolas-sideris.com/AGS/Jeffrey.pdf

I, personally, think it's VERY difficult for various reasons, but I'd like to view on it. It's part of a score, not the complete score unfortunately, due to copyright reasons.

Thanks! smile
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#1738291 - 08/22/11 11:43 AM Re: Give me something to sight read! [Re: Nikolas]
MathTeacher Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/25/11
Posts: 256
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
There you go Jeffrey:

www.nikolas-sideris.com/AGS/Jeffrey.pdf

I, personally, think it's VERY difficult for various reasons, but I'd like to view on it. It's part of a score, not the complete score unfortunately, due to copyright reasons.

Thanks! smile


Holy moly! Well, we have up to 6 outer ledger lines, which he says he knows by heart.

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#1738292 - 08/22/11 11:45 AM Re: Give me something to sight read! [Re: jeffreyjones]
Legal Beagle Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 776
Love this thread and kudos galore to jeffreyjones. He gets my vote for the all-time Piano World "put up or shut up" award. We should establish such an award and call it the "jeffreyjones cup" or something. Well done.

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#1738293 - 08/22/11 11:49 AM Re: Give me something to sight read! [Re: jeffreyjones]
jeffreyjones Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 2229
Loc: San Jose, CA
I have to get to work, so I'm not going to look at Nikolas' score yet. You have my word I'll record it later!

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#1738306 - 08/22/11 12:04 PM Re: Give me something to sight read! [Re: MathTeacher]
Nikolas Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 4994
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: MathTeacher
Holy moly! Well, we have up to 6 outer ledger lines, which he says he knows by heart.
Heh... I know! frown

There is one good thing about the score, though... It's all 16ths and nothing else. Very little pedal and nothing else. (I'm mainly interested about the 2 and 1/2 pages, rather than the second half of the third page, btw... That part should be 'easier' (but under no accounts "easy" per se").

Thanks Jeffrey: Really looking forward to your take. I'm very interested exactly because I want to see how you fair with something like this, see if you understand "what's wrong" with it and tell me if it's as difficult as I think it is...
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#1738325 - 08/22/11 12:38 PM Re: Give me something to sight read! [Re: jeffreyjones]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13706
Loc: Iowa City, IA
It's incredibly difficult to read because it requires so much redistribution between the hands. All of that has to be planned in advance. (Although I'm sure some 20th century specialists would be able to dispatch it rather easily - someone like Oppens, Crossley or Aimard.)

Fortunately, the tempo isn't too terribly fast, so it seems completely playable to me.

(Though I don't know why anyone would want to - it seems to suffer from a common problem among contemporary composers, it sounds cool in Finale, but nobody actually wants to learn it because it's awkward and just not worth the effort. I've seen a dozen versions of this same kind of writing in the last 5 years; it seems to be very much in vogue right now.)

There are ways to get that same effect without abandoning idiomatic writing - for example, in some of Carl Vine's sonatas or the Babadjanian poem.
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#1738338 - 08/22/11 12:55 PM Re: Give me something to sight read! [Re: jeffreyjones]
Nikolas Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 4994
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
(Though I don't know why anyone would want to - it seems to suffer from a common problem among contemporary composers, it sounds cool in Finale, but nobody actually wants to learn it because it's awkward and just not worth the effort. I've seen a dozen versions of this same kind of writing in the last 5 years; it seems to be very much in vogue right now.)
The reason the notes were distributed as such was because of the lack of any real pattern in the single melodic line. It would be unfair of my big hands distributing the right-left hands, where someone would feel very differently. Contemporary scores quite often leave this issue (as well as fingering) out exactly because it becomes very personal.

And I should note that I don't compose with the aid of Finale. In fact some times I don't compose with the aid of a piano either! wink This chunk that you see remains a part of a much bigger score. And of course it has been performed (that specific part in one go) so it's perfectly playable thank you! wink Oh! BTW this work was composed 6 years ago in 2005! grin

When I was putting the notes in Finale, I pondered exactly for the reason you mention (the distribution of the hands), and I decided for the above reasons to go with the version you see here. Of course later on, I decided to proof read the score and I asked a composer friend and a couple of pianists here to 'have a look'. I'm quite open to suggestions, so I'd appreciate any info, or sample page you have on that style of 'semi-random' streams of notes and the distribution of the hands... In public or private, I don't mind either.
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#1738499 - 08/22/11 05:29 PM Re: Give me something to sight read! [Re: Nikolas]
robotherolove Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/20/10
Posts: 67
Could you perchance play some of Dvorak's 6 Mazurkas? I am interested in what they sound like. smile

Here is the link.
http://imslp.org/wiki/6_Mazurkas,_Op.56_%28Dvo%C5%99%C3%A1k,_Anton%C3%ADn%29

Edit: Scratch that, I found recordings on Pianosociety.com.


Edited by robotherolove (08/22/11 05:42 PM)

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#1738524 - 08/22/11 05:54 PM Re: Give me something to sight read! [Re: jeffreyjones]
DianneB Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/08/08
Posts: 89
How about a Moszkowski etude?

Jeffrey, I'm really impressed by your sight reading skills, but if you don't bite for this one, I will still be impressed.

Op. 72, No. 11, A flat major:

http://erato.uvt.nl/files/imglnks/usimg/7/7a/IMSLP09192-Moskoswki-etOp.72-11.pdf


Edited by DianneB (08/22/11 05:55 PM)

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#1738628 - 08/22/11 09:17 PM Re: Give me something to sight read! [Re: jeffreyjones]
Lingyis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/15/09
Posts: 786
Loc: New York, NY
Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
Originally Posted By: MathTeacher
Some questions I need to ask you JeffreyJones, since I'm trying to become like you:

1) How many years have you been practising sightreading? You don't practice it, you do it, at whatever tempo you feel comfortable at. It doesn't matter if it's as fast as I do it, as long as it's at a tempo where you can be reasonably accurate.
2) Do you count in your head as you sightread, and if not, how do you deal with a measure that has a very tricky rhythm? I practiced all of the tricky rhythms already in other pieces, so when I see them, it's already familiar.
3) How far ahead do you look generally? Not at all.
4) How many outer and inner ledger lines do you have memorized by heart, and accordingly what range of notes can you play blindly? Up to 6 ledger lines each direction for the outer ranges. Going above the bass or below the treble, probably 3-4, that's not as important.
5) What kind of piece is the most challenging for you to sightread? (e.g. heavy and frequent two-handed chords, scattered notes everywhere, polyrhythmic, etc...) Counterpoint! There's no way to predict the patterns.


I was just gonna say, make him sight read Bach's fugues smile

I have tremendous trouble with fugues in general. 2 parts are relatively okay, but my LH technique gets in the way.

Some of the 3 or 4 parts in 48 P+F are almost sight-readable, but the fingerings are next to impossible to figure out.

My sightreading abilities are surely nowhere close to Jeffrey's, but it's pretty good considering how little time I actually play the piano. One of my teachers routinely ask me to accompany her students in concertos without prior warning. Of course, in concertos accompaniments, you are free to simplify some things and most are well-known concertos. The Ravel concerto, however, I have a devil of a time accompanying. Not so much notes, although that isn't exactly easy, but counting is way more difficult. Maybe I'm just unfamiliar with the rhythm.

Inspired by this thread, I started sightreading Beethoven's sonatas starting volume I. Not too bad, but Beethoven's stuff again are never easy, and whenever he goes polyphonic with non-trivial LHs, I mess up. Do you have the same problem with LHs Jeffrey?

I'm curious, when it comes to polyrhythms, can you sight read something like this:

http://216.129.110.22/files/imglnks/usim...in_Eb_Major.pdf

2nd movement, 2nd line, starting 3rd measure. there's a bunch of similar syncopated polyrhythms the rest of the piece, some even trickier than this one.

i was reading some music with a violinist friend and when i got here, i'm like, what on earth?

after much practicing, i think the next time i see something like this i would be better prepared.

EDIT: indeed, this time as i'm trying it it's very easy.

the ones on 4th page, 2nd line (still 2nd movement) are tricky too, but not quite as bad--but 1st measure, 3rd line i think is impossible to sightread accurately unless you've played something exactly the same before. maybe it's my ignorance, but i'm curious, can you sigttread that?

EDIT: tried it, still impossible!


Edited by Lingyis (08/22/11 09:23 PM)
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911, 110, 53. Listed in order of time of composition.


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#1738680 - 08/22/11 10:54 PM Re: Give me something to sight read! [Re: jeffreyjones]
jeffreyjones Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 2229
Loc: San Jose, CA
No can do Lingyis, one of my conditions is it had to be solo piano. If you don't follow the rules you don't get a recording from me. laugh

Nicolas' piece: http://www.box.net/shared/o4dcavaifigvcgodbps6
Moszkowski Etude: http://www.box.net/shared/hn3dyj83fd7vixjd1cyz
Dvorak Mazurkas: http://www.box.net/shared/f906ihxt1pzskrr6j7uj


Edited by jeffreyjones (08/23/11 12:21 AM)
Edit Reason: Moszkowski

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#1738700 - 08/22/11 11:19 PM Re: Give me something to sight read! [Re: jeffreyjones]
Lain Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/14/11
Posts: 613
Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
No can do Lingyis, one of my conditions is it had to be solo piano. If you don't follow the rules you don't get a recording from me. laugh

Nicolas' piece: http://www.box.net/shared/o4dcavaifigvcgodbps6
Moszkowski Etude: http://www.box.net/shared/o4dcavaifigvcgodbps6
Dvorak Mazurkas: http://www.box.net/shared/f906ihxt1pzskrr6j7uj


Jeffreyjones, you are phenomenal! By the way, I think the 2nd link is the same as the 1st... Look forward to hearing the Moszkowski.
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#1738706 - 08/22/11 11:27 PM Re: Give me something to sight read! [Re: Legal Beagle]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19292
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Legal Beagle
Love this thread and kudos galore to jeffreyjones. He gets my vote for the all-time Piano World "put up or shut up" award. We should establish such an award and call it the "jeffreyjones cup" or something....

Looks like a pretty good idea to me....
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"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1738712 - 08/22/11 11:34 PM Re: Give me something to sight read! [Re: jeffreyjones]
robotherolove Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/20/10
Posts: 67
Great job! Thanks a lot. Really liked the final Mazurka, I like all of Dvorak's piano pieces.

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#1738733 - 08/23/11 12:21 AM Re: Give me something to sight read! [Re: Lain]
jeffreyjones Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 2229
Loc: San Jose, CA
Originally Posted By: Lain
Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
No can do Lingyis, one of my conditions is it had to be solo piano. If you don't follow the rules you don't get a recording from me. laugh

Nicolas' piece: http://www.box.net/shared/o4dcavaifigvcgodbps6
Moszkowski Etude: http://www.box.net/shared/o4dcavaifigvcgodbps6
Dvorak Mazurkas: http://www.box.net/shared/f906ihxt1pzskrr6j7uj


Jeffreyjones, you are phenomenal! By the way, I think the 2nd link is the same as the 1st... Look forward to hearing the Moszkowski.


Fixed it, thanks!

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#1738749 - 08/23/11 01:05 AM Re: Give me something to sight read! [Re: jeffreyjones]
Nikolas Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 4994
Loc: Europe
Thanks Jeffrey! It's quite interesting that you're able to latch on pitches, without any other aid really.

I'll explain it to the other thread as well, but that specific part (the 2 and 1/2 pages) was composed with one thing in mind: to have no repeated patterns, to have nothing to latch on. Thus the notes are all over the place, the octaves go up and down like nuts and there's no fixed place for the hands. And that's why I never distributed the hands. It's not random in the sense of "whatever comes next", but it's random in the sense of "Yikes! No idea what's going on here", which was my main point on that part of the score.

I won't derail the thread any longer. Again thanks Jeffrey!
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#1738752 - 08/23/11 01:12 AM Re: Give me something to sight read! [Re: Nikolas]
jeffreyjones Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 2229
Loc: San Jose, CA
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Thanks Jeffrey! It's quite interesting that you're able to latch on pitches, without any other aid really.

I'll explain it to the other thread as well, but that specific part (the 2 and 1/2 pages) was composed with one thing in mind: to have no repeated patterns, to have nothing to latch on. Thus the notes are all over the place, the octaves go up and down like nuts and there's no fixed place for the hands. And that's why I never distributed the hands. It's not random in the sense of "whatever comes next", but it's random in the sense of "Yikes! No idea what's going on here", which was my main point on that part of the score.

I won't derail the thread any longer. Again thanks Jeffrey!


On the one hand, I was looking at the music and thinking 'this makes no sense,' but then I was instinctively doing pushing and pulling, broadening and contracting without even realizing it. I dunno. It was a strange reading for sure.

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#1738774 - 08/23/11 01:41 AM Re: Give me something to sight read! [Re: jeffreyjones]
Lingyis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/15/09
Posts: 786
Loc: New York, NY
Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
No can do Lingyis, one of my conditions is it had to be solo piano. If you don't follow the rules you don't get a recording from me. laugh



That's okay, I'm sure you'll do well anyway smile

I was gonna suggest some certain Beethoven sonata movement with tricky yet innocent looking LH passages. If your LH is good, I can imagine you do pretty well on those. Only thing is that it's way too in the standard repertoire.

I'm currently learning Beethoven's Emperor concerto, I'm curious, how hard do you find the LH in places like:


Those 4 measures (middle 4 measures) are taking me quite some time to learn. If LH and RH were reversed, it becomes sightreadable at full tempo, so I'm just wondering for better pianists than I if they can sightread it at close to full tempo. No need to post a recording, I'm just curious to know.

It's weird, if the passage is in the RH, my brain can process it pretty much instantaneously, but since it's LH, it barely even responds to it.
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Working on:
911, 110, 53. Listed in order of time of composition.


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#1738813 - 08/23/11 05:29 AM Re: Give me something to sight read! [Re: jeffreyjones]
DianneB Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/08/08
Posts: 89
Quote:
How about a Moszkowski etude?

Jeffrey, I'm really impressed by your sight reading skills, but if you don't bite for this one, I will still be impressed.

Op. 72, No. 11, A flat major:

http://erato.uvt.nl/files/imglnks/usimg/7/7a/IMSLP09192-Moskoswki-etOp.72-11.pdf


Bravo on the sight reading!!

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#1738823 - 08/23/11 06:43 AM Re: Give me something to sight read! [Re: jeffreyjones]
Bart Kinlein Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 715
Loc: Maryland
Fantastic! I'd be happy at 25% of that.

Just a quick question - how much time do you normaloly spend previewing a piece to determone key signature and changes, overall structure, flow, etc. before actually starting to play?
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#1738836 - 08/23/11 07:26 AM Re: Give me something to sight read! [Re: jeffreyjones]
haakonsb Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/11/10
Posts: 69
Loc: Norway
here is a Saint-Saens etude if you dear to try!

it's no. 6 the Toccata!

imslp

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#1738839 - 08/23/11 07:35 AM Re: Give me something to sight read! [Re: jeffreyjones]
Gould Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 429
Loc: Earth
http://imslp.org/wiki/Mazeppa,_S.100_(Liszt,_Franz)

smile

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