I usually post in the Pianist's Corner section of these forums, but I am now in the market for a Steinway B.

I live in San Diego, California and I own a Bosendorfer 214CS. I originally bought it brand new from the Piano Warehouse in San Marcos, CA in December 2005 for the final price of $58k.

I have received top prizes in amateur piano competitions this year in Paris and Colorado Springs. I came to the conclusion that the I need a Steinway because that is the piano that will be provided at future competitions I plan on attending and I need something with a similar touch/action to the competitions' piano.

I went to a Greene Music in San Diego, CA today and was quoted the retail price for a brand new B at $84,900 -- period. I've had my Bosendorfer for 6 years and I am sad to part with it, but it would be necessary to trade it in.

Although I do have a well paying day job, this is a huge investment for me since music is pretty much my life. I would like to ask everyone: What is the best possible deal I could get in the Southern California (LA/San Diego) region?

I know that all Bs are not created equal and my teacher and I would need to personally try them out before committing to anything.

Thanks all,

Gorden

Look/ask around for a used B? They are around.

What about a rebuilt vintage B? It would have a Renner action and not a Steinway action, though.

Do you actually feel disadvantaged at competitions with the Bosie action vs. a Steinway action?

I have a friend who bought a Yamaha grand because that's the type of piano her child encounters at exams and competitions. I personally feel that there are plenty of other nice pianos out there with excellent actions for similar prices, and to stick to a particular action is a pretty extreme constraint.

If you currently own a Boesendorfer 214CS, the only reason you should get rid of it is 1. if you have to downsize or 2. if you want a bigger piano. Your piano is a high-performance piano, and you will not see ANY performance advantage by switching to a Steinway B, or pretty much anything else of a similar size.

When you compete in competitions, you will be subject to different acoustics, and different pianos. There is a HUGE difference between a Steinway B and a Steinway D, which is what I assume most competitions would be using. There is also a HUGE difference between playing in your living room and playing in a recital hall. There is also a noticeable difference between NY Steinways and Hamburg Steinways, which I guarantee is what you'll see in Paris. Pianos also vary significantly from instrument to instrument. The fact of the matter is that whether you keep your Boesendorfer or acquire a Steinway, you are at the mercy of the pianos at the competition, and it is your job as a competitor to deal with it unless there is something seriously wrong with what they provide. Simply having a piano that says Steinway & Sons will do absolutely nothing for you, and if you think otherwise, you're just kidding yourself.

That said, I think what you're proposing is extremely unwise financially unless you have money to burn. In all honesty, I think what you're suggesting is insane and misguided. You will likely not get 58k as a trade in and even if you did, 84k-58k ain't good odds, especially when you add sales tax. Since it sounds like you're attached to your Boesendorfer anyway, you should keep it unless you want to trade up to a used Steinway D or something.

Gnuboi,

Why would a rebuilt Steinway not have Steinway action parts? I know a tech can opt for other brands, but I'm pretty sure they can order parts from NY if they want.

To the original poster,

If you're convinced you need to sell your Bosie, I'd take a crack at trying to sell it without trading it first (what were you being quoted for a trade-in?). I also agree that you're not likely being "harmed" by practicing on this instrument, so long as you have access to a good concert grand piano occasionally. (you admit to having already won some top prizes with your current "routine").

I think if you wanted to bring the "authenticity of sound/feel" argument to its absolute zenith, then you'd need to by a concert grand, as I have never played a B that reacted sonically and dynamically the same as a D (nor did it feel exactly the same).

As others have mentioned, you have other options if you're sure you want to change pianos. Explore high-end rebuilds, younger used instruments, and why not make your dealer compete with some other dealers for your business? Although I have rarely seen large discounts on Steinways, I've not been quoted full retail on anything, either-- particularly not in this lousy economy.

OK...here's my 2 cents. Each Steinway feels different to me. I wouldn't get rid of the Bosendorfer if you really love it...and we are talking big dollars here. As far as selling/trading in goes. I moved to a very small apartment and had to part with my almost brand new Mason Hamlin Grand. (I had to get an upright). I tried to make it work in my apartment, but just couldn't. I hadn't found this website...but tried on some other piano websites...and put out feelers to everyone I knew. I had one person come to try it and he said "I love it, but I need to discuss it with my wife". I never heard back from him. High end pianos are hard to sell on your own, and when you trade them in (as I did) you get about 1/2 of what they are actually worth.

Gorden,

You say you fully understand the wide variability among individual pianos out there, and that you will have to pick very carefully among Bs. What does that say about the likelihood that your specially chosen B will be a good prep instrument for all the other Steinways you'll likely encounter at competitions? [And watch, you'll get tossed a few Yamahas and Shigerus just to shake things up ].

I'm just echoing b986, I know. But from what you have said, I just don't see the logic in replacing your piano with a B .... and taking a financial bath in the process.

I have no idea how feasible this is where you live, but a compromise might be to keep your Bosie and simply rent studio space with a Steinway D on a few occasions before your major competitions for practice purposes. Yeah, I'm sure such rental fees would be extremely expensive, but the $50K or so you're looking at with your proposed scheme would pay for an awful lot of extremely expensive studio rental fees.

You don't NEED a Steinway, you Want one.

I would think it's best to keep the Bosie, it's a nice piano, and it sounds like you are quite attached to it. I don't think you should just "buy a Steinway" because you are going to a competition with a Steinway. The Bosie is a very nice piano anyway, and you should be able to adjust your playing quite easily on an unfamiliar instrument. And as stated before, B's and D's are very different instruments.

However, best of luck to you.

And to Monica.K,

Would it be possible just to go to a piano showroom that has a Steinway D, tell them that I have a competition that uses one, and would it be possible to go through my repertoire on it before the time of the actual comp?

To the OP: What if you end up playing concerts in Europe? It sure won't be on an American Steinway!

Every Steinway is different from every other in any event. Moreover, the point about concerts being on 9' pianos, as opposed to the 6'10" model, seems entirely valid to me. Besides, as a pianist at the level you currently inhabit, shouldn't you be able to play on a multitude of piano brands? There are all kinds of venues out there that won't supply a Steinway, and even if they do it might be older than yours (if you get one), or newer, or with a different touch, or of a different size, or whatever. Moreover, not all concert halls, churches, recital facilities, universities have limited themselves to American Steinways, and even if they do they will be different sizes and ages, with varying touches and tones. It seems to me that learning a piece on one Steinway is unlikely to translate to another Steinway in any meaningful way, and you may well end up limiting yourself in a way that redounds to your disadvantage. Especially given that you now play a Bosendorfer!

Just my two cents.

Not being a "player", my opinion is of limited value. However, in reading this thread I see an almost universal response.

I would consider these responses, being rare in their consensus, very carefully.

One piece of anecdotal advice. Garrick Ohlsson has not been hurt by practicing on his Bosendorfer and he performs on Steinways, Bosendorfers, Faziolis, Masons, and who knows what else.

Dan

Basically what I'm saying is that at your level of pianism, I think you should be able to adjust to any piano quite easily, and it does not depend on what piano you practice on, but it is nice to have a nice piano with a good action to practice on, as it helps greatly with your ability to Colour, shape and basically "beautify" and refine the music that you are playing.

Your Bösendorfer is probably more than enough for your needs at this time.

I'll go out on a limb here:

For the price of the new B, you should consider a used C&A Steinway D. It would be an upgrade from the Bosie for sure and be closer to what you will need over your career.

That said, some major concert pianists in Toronto:

1 has a D for performing, a B for recitals, and an old Mason A for practice.

Another has an M for practice but performs only on a D.

Take care,

Steve

You should consider David Andersen Pianos at the Atelier in Los Angeles, phone number is 310-391-4360 - that will be a great start on your path. Good luck!

So, fuzzy, which is it? Do you NEED a Steinway or do you WANT a Steinway.

If you think you need one, then you've been given good advice already.

If you really just WANT one, then GET ONE! (if you can afford it comfortably, of course).

I must say, your level of playing is exceptionally good (I'm very jealous) for an amateur, so in my opinion, you should have whatever you want (and can afford).

Good luck in your search for a B (if that's what you decide )

What a neat idea!

I was trying to think of a piano sales source that might value a Bosie as highly as a Steinway and not be afraid the a Bosie could be hard to turn in his showroom. Anderson's shop is as good as any place to start. probably better than any other in SoCal.

Another thing Anderson would bring to the table is his ability as a technician, which is not brand-centric, but pan-centric. You wrote:



For the player, touch and tone are often very difficult to sort out and separate. Even professionals will swear that the touch is inordinately heavy or light when technically it is not. The sense of heaviness or lightness comes from the frustration in producing the right volume and projection without making undue effort in touch velocity. It can go both directions -- from lightening your touch ro beefing it up.

If anyone could work with you and your Bosie to get to the bottom of what exactly you feel is lacking in it and make alterations to get you where you want to be, it would be Anderson. I'm not saying he can turn a Bosie into a B, but I wouldn't bet against it either.

He does go out on technician calls, and you never know. He might perform magic for a tiny fraction of the amount you would lose on a piano exchange, an exchange in which even the most ethical seller would expect to make money on both ends of the deal.

I don't know what the completely rebuilt B's by the best rebuilders go for, but I'd guess around 80% of new(if they have a plain ebony contemporary case). So you might save 17K and be able to get one that is just as good or better than a new one.

I'm sure it would depend on the dealership, and it would probably be too much to ask to do this for free, but I bet many dealers would be amenable to a reasonable fee to let you in before or after hours to practice on a D. It's worth asking about.

Thanks for everyone's replies.

I would like to expand further on my reasoning on how I came to this conclusion. It seems like every time I play on a B or D, the action is always heavier than my Bosie. I always had this feeling on stage, and it is very, very frustrating when I cannot control the instrument like when I am practicing because I just feel the keys are somehow 'out of reach'. Not to say that my Bosie's action is weak, but I need something with more resistance. Also the sales rep told me that Bosies' actions wear out rather fast (I don't know if this is true or if it's just a sales tactic).

For example I played Stravinsky's Danse Russe from his "3 movements of Petrushka" at the last final and some passages fell apart while on stage. I do certainly take in nervousness and hesitation to account, however even the opening chords which I practice so diligently just felt so much more heavier on the stage (on a D).

This is not a decision I take lightly. I expect it will only set me back 12-16 months, financially (with the trade-in).

Renting studio space would be nice if I lived in some place like NYC or San Francisco, but I commute 30min each way to work and I am very busy and spend about 3 hours practicing weeknights.

Up to now, everything has worked out great. I put in a lot of effort into my practicing and received good results. However I am not completely satisfied and I want to make changes to my practicing routine -- whatever they may be. I definitely know that I cannot continue on my current path and expect better results next time.

I visited your youtube channel. Your playing demonstrates lots of technique and lots of sensitivity.

At your level, you would be really smart to begin to work with a top-notch technician. What you are describing is in no way an insurmountable problem for such a tech.

I'll repeat what I posted earlier. I have no affiliation with Anderson, but I think that following Jim Frazee's suggestion to give him a call would be rewarding both in terms of the results and in building your piano knowledge.

Fuzzy,

I can understand. It seems that most concert pianists DO have a Steinway at home to practice on. And there must be a reason and some sense to this.

Not only the action feeling different, but to work at achieving the tone that you want while you are onstage would take adjustment time. Time and anx that you cannot afford during a competition.

Even little ole me feels the difference when playing 'other' pianos than the one that I enjoy at home. Reference - playing something as comfortable as the 2nd movement of the Pathetique on a Hamburg Steinway recently felt difficult for me to control the tone I wanted. Something about the key depth I think. I surely would not want to deal with the anxiety that I felt if I were competing rather than just playing for a few piano friends.

However, you might want to reconsider if only for your enjoyment of the many hours that you spend playing at home rather than prep for competitions.

I wish you the best in your journey.

Turandot has given the best advice here. I would start with a technician and see if that fixes things for you. In the mean time, keep saving your money so that if you aren't satisfied you have more money to make the leap. And if you do buy a Steinway, can you fit a D in your home? If you're going to do it, you might as well look for a used or rebuilt D and go all the way instead of only going halfway with a B.

Dan

I don't think you're going to solve this problem by buying a NEW Steinway this way; all the ones I've played have felt on the light side. Furthermore, you can have the touch of your Boesendorfer altered to your liking for a lot less money than buying a new Steinway B.

Whoever told you that Boesendorfer actions "wear out rather fast" is either just very dishonest, or a simpleton. The action parts in their pianos are made by Renner, which also supplies parts for Fazioli, Bluethner, Hamburg Steinway, NY Steinway for a time (I believe), Baldwin, virtually every other high-end piano manufacturer, and tons of rebuilders.

If you have performance anxiety issues, I recommend Xanax. I've used it with success, and from what I've heard, so do many artists on the international circuit.

To the OP: It sounds from your last post that more diagnostic work needs to be done. What if you buy a Steinway and the purchase does not help alleviate the issues you raise? You are taking a huge chance that the piano on which you practice is causally linked ti the issues you mention; it might well not be.

Actually Renner manufactures proprietory parts for each new piano manufacturer as for THEIR specifications which does entail certain composition differences of their parts. When you order replacement hammer,shanks and flanges and wippens etc. from Bosendorfer, they are different compared than what you get from Renner whether from Renner USA and or Renner direct in Studgart.So...evidently someone has alleged or made conclusions as for certain piano manufacturers as for THEIR Renner parts that they use. If you really want to research this you inquire into exactly what so and so uses as for ex. composition of their knuckle, hammer felt and ? There is a difference as in what Renner specs Bosendorfer uses as opposed to Pearl River. Conclusions and allegations come about 10 -15 years later not when the pianos are brand new. When you see preowned pianos 10-15 years later from all the piano manufacturers a pattern does develop taking into account it's favorable or nonfaviorable environment.

There is the possibility of keeping the Bosendorfer and purchasing a piano that will provide you the necessary "perspective" you will need to feel comfortable on a Steinway D on stage.

Certain Baldwins actions are very comparable to the Steinway D in an important way. I will save the long explanation and leave that comment as it is for the moment.

Purchasing that appropriate Baldwin used , perhaps an L or F or SF-10, might allow you to "have your cake and eat it too"

Bosendorfer is a unique instrument. It is easy to understand why you would want that.

Steinway is also unique and different from the Bosendorfer.

fuzzy8balls, I agree with you. It is important to be as completely prepared for what you will be finding on stage as possible. You should do it in the way you are most comfortable with.

I just listened to your UTube piece. Nice work.

RE your last post. The Bosie action and the Steinway D action are fundamentally different. No amount of prep makes them the same. You may be able to make certain things similar in their response, such as repetition. But weight?

The D feels different because it is.

I will not make any presumptions as to where you are in your concert experience. Every concert artist I work with has their own philosophy on what works for them. That does evolve over time. You are in good company if you have and stick to the things you need to to. And, like everyone else, you are unique and you will also evolve over time.

Checking out your Youtube channel, very nice playing.

Altering the touch of your Bosie could be as simple as taking some weight out of each key. I fully understand that being confronted with a piano that plays like a truck when what you're used to is one that plays like a Ferrari is very disconcerting. It sounds like what might help you most would be access to an instrument with a heavier action for a few days prior to a competition. It doesn't take much playing on a heavier instrument to acclimatize to it. Be advised that playing on a heavier action may exacerbate an injury, but judging from what I'm hearing you doing fine at this time. So perhaps you would be best served by finding a piano that plays like a truck that you can practice on for a week before your next competition.

One possibility would be a system a local tech tried to sell me. I believe it's called a touchrail system. It was basically a bar with weights that was installed inside the piano that added weight to each key. With some careful calculation you could have a tech take weight out of your keys and then install this system so that the downweight is unchanged. Then when you need to prepare for a competition have your tech remove the bar with the weights and viola! your piano plays like a truck. Then after the competition when you want your piano back to normal simply reinstall it and you have your Ferrari back.

You're blazing through the 3rd movement of the Italian Concerto, perhaps a bit too fast. It's nice to know you can, but that doesn't mean you have to.