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#705235 - 03/11/02 10:56 PM Bush Administration orders Pentigon to draw plans for possible use of nuclear weapons
jgoo Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/23/01
Posts: 3974
Loc: Seattle, Washington, USA
As unbeleivable as it is, it happened. There are five target countries including: Iraq, China, Russia, and I think that the other two were Afghanistan and India, but I could be wrong. Anyway, I think that its rediculous. They should even be talking about things like that. There are three conditions in which the plans will go into effect:

1. Attack against us with chemical or biological weapons
I really can't remember the other two. I just heard this on CNN the and my short term memory is sooo bad. . . oh well. I still think that the idea is crazy. Even if we use small scale nukes, I don't think that it should be done. It is just a bad idea.
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#705236 - 03/11/02 11:27 PM Re: Bush Administration orders Pentigon to draw plans for possible use of nuclear weapons
Penny Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2943
Loc: San Juan Capistrano, CA
The LA Times broke the story (at least, that's where I read it first in Saturday's paper). Here's the latest:
LA Times story here

I think perhaps this is more muscle-flexing brinksmanship than the actual plan to use nuclear weapons. Someone wants everyone in the world to know we have the technology and we have the plan and we can, at any time, put our finger on the red button. This story has "leak with a wink" written all over it!

penny

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#705237 - 03/12/02 12:04 AM Re: Bush Administration orders Pentigon to draw plans for possible use of nuclear weapons
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
I agree with you, Penny.

Plus, once you read below the sensationalist headline, the story only relates that the U.S. has contingency planning governing the possible use of nuclear weapons under various scenarios. This of course is a breathtaking new development, the government having only been doing so since 1945.

Of course, the same folks who criticize the thought of having a protocol for the use of nukes would also be the ones complaining most if the opposite were true: "What? We have these weapons, and there's no strategic policy governing their use?!!!"

The fact that it's truly such non-news adds to the notion that it's a "leak with a wink," especially when you add in today's news story that Iraq has possibly been holding a downed US fighter pilot, originally thought killed, since the Gulf War. Hmmm....

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#705238 - 03/12/02 02:37 AM Re: Bush Administration orders Pentigon to draw plans for possible use of nuclear weapons
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14139
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
It is one thing to say which of all possible states GENERALLY speaking, may be on the receiving end of any American nukes in the future........

...and which one SPECIFICALLY speaking, out of any, is to be targeted after the first[inevitable] nuclear terrorist bomb goes off somewhere at uncle Sam's home territory!

Fact is that man is NEVER prepared for the unthinkable,[much]less so for the inevitable.

Inevitable, because technology is not only within inches to make this 'unthinkable' utterly possible but given the international world politics today including the uncontrollible mix of present and future [anonymous?] madmen of all shades and creeds
the only "logical" world target to pursue.

So what's next?

Don't ask me.I could never make your president. And if I could....chances are...
....I wouldn't look that pretty.

Some things in life it seems...better remain
unanswered or.... perhaps...left alone.

It's more forgiving to screw up with regards
to..........pianos!
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#705239 - 03/16/02 01:01 AM Re: Bush Administration orders Pentigon to draw plans for possible use of nuclear weapons
Anonymous
Unregistered


I wonder what Bush thinks this country should do when other countries decide they need to match our weapons and start to do so. I had so hoped we were past this sort of brinksmanship with nuclear weapons -- but then, when we have an Administration being run by 1970's cold warriors, what are we to expect?

Of course, they probably haven't thought that far. It would probably explain more if we just "followed the money." Why do I think that the people who will make the most out of this massive defense build up are all Bush campaign contributors? I don't recall an Administration so brazen in its willngness to pay off contributors. I can't believe this decision is any different from the decision to let California suffer through the manufactured energy shortage just to pay off Enron or any of the other policy decisions made by the Bush II Administration.

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#705240 - 03/16/02 01:18 AM Re: Bush Administration orders Pentigon to draw plans for possible use of nuclear weapons
jgoo Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/23/01
Posts: 3974
Loc: Seattle, Washington, USA
Bush is just an idiot for even considering it. The use of nuclear weapons will get other countries mad at us that previously had no beaf with us. They will soon after be sending their nukes over here. Then, we see that Einsteins statement becomes truth, instead of just a theory. There are enough nuclear weapons to destroy the world 5 or 6 times over, at least. What more do we need? I think that nukes should never have been built in the first place. However, I am saticified with those new bombs that have most recently come out. The don't destory anything except for the power grid. They fry power circuts over the area they are set off at. It would render anything that the enimy has useless without harming any people, animals, plants, or anything that lives. I don't know how it works to neutralize the power grids, but they seem to be a hell of a lot safer than nukes. I'd rather live without power than be dead or, if I wasn't killed in the initial blast, to fry to death of radiation.
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#705241 - 03/16/02 02:45 AM Re: Bush Administration orders Pentigon to draw plans for possible use of nuclear weapons
Penny Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2943
Loc: San Juan Capistrano, CA
George,
California and only California created the stupid energy crisis! First it was a moderate Republican governor along with the state legislature that set it up. In theory, it could've worked. But that was if the wholesale rates weren't locked. It makes no sense to let the free market set retail rates when wholesale rates were locked. Then we had an even STUPIDER governor (this time Democrat) make the most idiotic deals that put the state BILLIONS of dollars in debt for the NEXT 20 years by buying energy at the very top of the market!

This was all accomplished without Bush. So say what you want about Bush on national issues. But make no bones about it. California's energy "crisis" was born from home-grown stupidity!

As for the lofty Mr. Clinton, read this recent article from the liberal LA Times about what an upstanding guy HE is!

article here

penny

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#705242 - 03/16/02 03:09 AM Re: Bush Administration orders Pentigon to draw plans for possible use of nuclear weapons
Shadorunnr Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/05/02
Posts: 125
Loc: Oklahoma City
The only thing Bush did was to order the Pentigon to deliver a copy of nuclear plans that were made up years ago. The Pentigon simply scratchs out the word "Soviet" and inserts "Iraq". This is all simply posturing. We have nukes and everyone knows it. They are more powerful and more accurate than anyone elses. (As if you needed to place a 100 megaton nuke in an elevator shaft from an invisable plane). Bush has said, if you knock down our buildings, we will conquer your government. Now he is taking it one step further. You mess with us again, don't be surprised at ANYTHING we do. It's all posturing to keep madmen at bay. Just don't think it's an empty threat.
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#705243 - 03/16/02 09:41 AM Re: Bush Administration orders Pentigon to draw plans for possible use of nuclear weapons
Anonymous
Unregistered


 Quote:
Originally posted by Penny:

This was all accomplished without Bush. So say what you want about Bush on national issues. But make no bones about it. California's energy "crisis" was born from home-grown stupidity!

[/b]


Penny, you may want to go back and read the articles about the flow of energy on the grid and how it peaked and ebbed based on decisions by Texas power companies on an hourly basis with the need for energy in CA. You also may want to read the reports of the numbers of plants that were taken offline in the peak of the crisis for "routine maintenance" -- a percentage nearly double the norm.

Add to this Bush's total refusal to lift a finger, until it looked like the crisis would spread to the midwest and the eats, wher eBush figured he needed the votes. He was paying off his energy company buddies -- you know, the ones like his good friend Kenneth Lay who he now claims he hardly knew.

As far as Clinton is concerned, yea, he was a scumbag. But at least he did not think he could rule the world.

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#705244 - 03/16/02 09:49 AM Re: Bush Administration orders Pentigon to draw plans for possible use of nuclear weapons
Anonymous
Unregistered


 Quote:
Originally posted by Shadorunnr:
It's all posturing to keep madmen at bay. Just don't think it's an empty threat.[/b]


If it is all just posturing, then it is an empty threat -- which is almost worse. Like the boy who cried wolf. But I agree with you, others should not think of it as an empty threat and they will not. Which is why they will work to match what we are doing.

More money, worldwide, to the military/industrial complex. Less money to eliminate the economic and political reasons why terrorism arises. Imagine if we had taken the billions we are now spending in the "war" and that Bush wants to spend in the future and put it to destroying the poverty and feeling of political impotence in the Middle East, how much safer we would all be. If we are going to spend it all over there anyway, why not do some good with it?

Oh, I forgot. Cheney was negotiating with the Taliban through August to get an oil pipeline built there for Haliburton. The Taliban was refusing. Now that we control Afganistan I guess we can get that pipeline, which we would not have been able to get had we decided to spend the money alleviating social and economic conditions. I guess Bush does know what he is doing -- and is prepared to use our sons and daughters in the military to do it.

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#705245 - 03/16/02 05:12 PM Re: Bush Administration orders Pentigon to draw plans for possible use of nuclear weapons
Penny Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2943
Loc: San Juan Capistrano, CA
George,

No. 1, we shouldn't have been in a position to buy out-of-state electricity. No. 2, I can't fault companies for trying to take advantage of a supposed free market. That's what the free market is there for. It's similar to complaining about CEO salaries. Sorry to say, but greed in its worst form is what drives the engine that is capitalism. I don't fault people for bettering their lot, as long as its legal. California politicians should have fought harder and been better advocates for its California constituency and not bought into the sky-is-falling-you-better-lock-into-really-ridiculously-high-prices-now mentality! And don't forget bailing out the bankrupt California-based utilities. That ought to set us back financially for decades!

I attended both economic forecasts at the Anderson School of Management (UCLA) which focused on the energy crisis in the midst of it. Panelists included former Governor Pete Wilson (Republican) and current state Controller Kathleen Connell (Democrat). It's pretty safe to say that everyone walked away thinking that our so-called leaders SCREWED us big time!

Maybe this particular angle wasn't sexy enough for the rest of the United States, but it's the truth. As a post script to the whole, sorry situation, our esteemed (eh-hem) governor is now trying to place one of his buddies at Southern California Edison on the state's Public Utilities Commission, a move even the LA Times says is frought with conflicts of interest.

penny

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#705246 - 03/16/02 06:33 PM Re: Bush Administration orders Pentigon to draw plans for possible use of nuclear weapons
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
George,

Am I mistaken or are you implying that the Bush administration started a war with the Taliban just to get an oil pipeline for Haliburton? If you are then you need to back that up with some FACTS. If not then making statements like that is intellectually vacant.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#705247 - 03/16/02 09:53 PM Re: Bush Administration orders Pentigon to draw plans for possible use of nuclear weapons
Anonymous
Unregistered


 Quote:
Originally posted by JBryan:
George,

Am I mistaken or are you implying that the Bush administration started a war with the Taliban just to get an oil pipeline for Haliburton? If you are then you need to back that up with some FACTS. If not then making statements like that is intellectually vacant.[/b]



No, I am simply stating what is known.

1. The NY Times reported the negotiations between The Taliban and Cheney for Haliburton.

2. We now control Afganistan.

3. I have to admit I have only assumed Haliburton will get the pipepline now. This is not a fact.

If you want to put these facts together to accuse Bush2 of starting a war for the pipeline, that is up to you. All I know is what the facts are. Others can decide where they lead.

BTW, did you know that during the time when no planes could fly over the US, only one plane was given the OK to fly. It was a Saudi airliner. It stopped five places, to pick up family members of Osama Bin Laden and take them out of the country. The FBI was furious, but the White House overruled them. This was reported in the NY Times as well.

Another little piece of information. Did you know that Bush2's first venture into the oil industry received fnancial backing from Osama Bin Laden? (Washington Post report). Bush2 and Rumsfeld now say it is not alll THAT important that we capture Bin Laden (Reports from many news organizations).

You can conclude what you want from this as well. I am only reporting what I have found in the reputable press.

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#705248 - 03/16/02 10:02 PM Re: Bush Administration orders Pentigon to draw plans for possible use of nuclear weapons
Anonymous
Unregistered


 Quote:
Originally posted by Penny:
George,

No. 2, I can't fault companies for trying to take advantage of a supposed free market. That's what the free market is there for. [/b]


Penny

I am not sure it is productive for us to argue the California debacle. I suspect you and I would agree on much of it and where we disagree it would come from different interpretations of the same information. (You of course would be wrong! Just kidding!)

I am going to disgaree with you on the above, however. Yes, it is true that the rules of capitalism allow for a company to do whatever it can legally do to make as much profit as possible. Like any other freedom, there is a corresponding responsibility. The free market is no different; it must be used responsibly.

There is, or should be, an ethical aspect to the corporate culture, and has been in the past. Part of that ethical base should be to be a good citizen of this country, which includes limiting excessive [/b] profits when it is for the good of the society to do so.

No, the highest corporate goal should not be profit at any cost, as long as it is legal. I would never teach my chidren to ignore their responsibility to the society in the pursuit of their own desires, and I do not accept that a corporation should act that way either.

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#705249 - 03/16/02 10:12 PM Re: Bush Administration orders Pentigon to draw plans for possible use of nuclear weapons
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
If I want to Put these facts together to accuse Bush2 of starting a war for the pipeline??? I would not draw that conclusion from what you have given here. It is obvious that you have however.

The rest of this is real "grassy knoll" stuff. You seem to be saying that Bush and Cheney are in cahoots with bin Laden. This after they have just rained unshirted hell down on him and his cohorts. Whatever theory you have that makes sense out of this I am sure it has too many moving parts to be credible for me.

BTW, I trust the NY Times about as far as I can throw my piano for playing straight with the facts where the present administration is concerned. The Washington Post is only slightly more credible.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#705250 - 03/17/02 09:33 AM Re: Bush Administration orders Pentigon to draw plans for possible use of nuclear weapons
Anonymous
Unregistered


 Quote:
Originally posted by JBryan:
BTW, I trust the NY Times about as far as I can throw my piano for playing straight with the facts where the present administration is concerned. The Washington Post is only slightly more credible.[/b]


I trust the press a lot more than I trust any politician to give me information I need to have and have a right to have. It is also becoming clear that the Bush Administration does not feel that we, as citizens, deserve to have the facts.

Cheney refuses to disclose who he met with and what the topics were as he developed the energy policy. Bush 2 lies about his relationship with Enron and the massive impact Enron had in putting his administration together. Tom Ridge refuses to testify before Congress to explain what the $38B for Homeland Security is going to be used for. Ashcroft is setting up secret trials with skewed procedures and criteria for guilt and inoocence for the Al Quaeda and Taliban prisoners. The military does not allow the press to cover the war openly as they want, and give out only the information the Pentagon wants us to have, in the way they want us to have it.

If we want to discuss who will provide the American people with information about the most important thing affecting this country right now, it is going to be from the press, like the NY Times and the Washington Post, digging and finding it. It is certainly not going to come from the Bush2 Administration. We know this because the Bush2 Administration has shown it by the words and deeds.

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#705251 - 03/17/02 10:31 AM Re: Bush Administration orders Pentigon to draw plans for possible use of nuclear weapons
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
 Quote:
I trust the press a lot more than I trust any politician to give me information I need to have and have a right to
have. It is also becoming clear that the Bush Administration does not feel that we, as citizens, deserve to have
the facts.


Are you suggesting that I am trusting politicians for information? I have a little bit more on the ball than that, George. The NY Times and Washington Post are not the only sources of information in this country and, in my opinion, by no means the best.

 Quote:
Cheney refuses to disclose who he met with and what the topics were as he developed the energy policy.


Cheney is not required to give all the details of meetings or advice given by consultants and no constitutional officer ever has been. They are accountable to the people for their decisions and how those decisions are made is irrelevant unless you are trolling for evidence of some type of improper influence. We don't need to have elected officials on permanent witch hunt status.

 Quote:
Bush
2 lies about his relationship with Enron and the massive impact Enron had in putting his administration
together.


Once again, an allegation without one shred of proof. What lies have been told and what is the impact that can you PROVE. There has not even been a credible charge of impropriety.

 Quote:
Tom Ridge refuses to testify before Congress to explain what the $38B for Homeland Security is going
to be used for.


Tom Ridge is an advisor to the president and not an appointed cabinet official approved by the Senate. As an advisor, he is not required to sit through a grilling by a Senate committee for the sole purpose of their political grandstanding. He has offered to meet with them in private and they have refused.

 Quote:
Ashcroft is setting up secret trials with skewed procedures and criteria for guilt and inoocence
for the Al Quaeda and Taliban prisoners.


I am not sure what judicial procedures you think these characters should be subject to but in my book they are outside of the legal institutions that operate in this country, they are engaged in hostilities against this country, and they are getting far better than they deserve and far better than you could expect from them.

 Quote:
The military does not allow the press to cover the war openly as they
want, and give out only the information the Pentagon wants us to have, in the way they want us to have it.


Where did thids silly notion arise that we need to know all of the details of ongoing military operations. How can we conduct such operations if the enemy can ascertain their existence or details by reading about it in the paper or watching CNN. I don' WANT to know all of what is going on in this war. At least not until our forces are out of danger.

I have noe wasted 30 minutes on this pointless excercise and I think I will waste no more time on a hopeless case such as yourself.

[ March 17, 2002: Message edited by: JBryan ]
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#705252 - 03/17/02 12:35 PM Re: Bush Administration orders Pentigon to draw plans for possible use of nuclear weapons
Anonymous
Unregistered


 Quote:
Originally posted by JBryan:
I have noe wasted 30 minutes on this pointless excercise and I think I will waste no more time on a hopeless case such as yourself.[/b]


I am sorry to hear that you consider an open discussion of the government's policies a waste of time.

I consider it not only our right to do so, but also our obligation in a free, open society. It is the only way to ensure that we maintain our freedom and the values of Amwrican democracy.

We serve our country best, when we exercise the rights we have fully -- and especially when we take a skeptical view of anything the government does, demanding that government explain itself, fully and openly, to the people.

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#705253 - 03/17/02 01:27 PM Re: Bush Administration orders Pentigon to draw plans for possible use of nuclear weapons
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
I do not consider a discussion of government policies a wate of time. I consider a discussion of government policies with YOU a waste of time. But you are certainly entitled to your views and free to express them. No question about that. However, it is obvious to me that you are impervious to anything that does not fit into your liberal template. Have nice day. \:\)
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#705254 - 04/18/02 08:54 PM Re: Bush Administration orders Pentigon to draw plans for possible use of nuclear weapons
T2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 341
My criticism of some of the previous nuclear planning is that it didn't adequately factor in the effects of a nuclear war. This was corrected in the 1980s by a joint project between the American and Soviet national science academies in which each independently confirmed the findings of the results of a nuclear war.

The outcomes were stark: even medium sized nuclear exchanges would create sufficient firestorms to lower the mean temperature of the northern mid-latitude inland areas by 30-50 degrees C for a period of a year. Coastal areas would experience extreme and unprecedentedly violent storms and would, due to the higher precipitation, absorb much of the nuclear fallout. Combine that with massive extinctions cascading through the food chain, massive increases in pests & vermin and a resulting increase in disease vectors, sustained high level radiation levels in the northern mid-latitudes lasting a year or more and you have the prescription for the extinction of all mamalian life in the northern mid-latitudes.

The lucky ones would simply vanish in a picosecond. Many of those that survived the blasts, firestorms and radiation sickness would die in the cold and the dark. Some hardy survivors would emerge from their bomb shelters to find a toxic republic populated by rats, insects and grass.

During the Cold War the United States was dealing with a rational adversary that feared and respected the destructive capability of its opponent, NATO and the U.S., i.e., deterrence. I believe we should already look back on those days with nostalgia because deterrence is a thing of the past. Unfortunately for us, the 21st century is going to see weapons of mass destruction in the hands of non-rational people who do not fear their own destruction.

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#705255 - 07/18/05 06:39 PM Re: Bush Administration orders Pentigon to draw plans for possible use of nuclear weapons
ellll Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/02/05
Posts: 56
Loc: Kentucky
Well,

Mr Bush is the one asking for a new and more powerful "bunkerbuster" made as an atomic device that would be the equiv. of another a bomb...and more powerful than originally suggested a few years ago...

John Cont

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#1739333 - 08/23/11 09:48 PM Re: Bush Administration orders Pentigon to draw plans for possible use of nuclear weapons [Re: jgoo]
Stand Alone Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/12/11
Posts: 12
Loc: Jacksonvllle, Florida, USA
How Idiotic. In the 80's reporters from one of the large northern papers came to my city,held a big news conference and announced that there were nukes in Jacksonville, Florida. The reaction of the people here was: duh, three naval bases. We have had contigency plans for using nuclear weapons since we tested the first one and so does each and every other country that owns one. Everytime there is a new threat there is a new contigency plan. We also have contigency plans for chemical and biologicals. Doesn't mean we will use them, just means if we have to we will. The good news? We also have contigency plans to fix what we blow up.
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