I've noticed recently that I am losing interest in performing jazz and I enjoy playing non-jazz gigs..It's not because I don't enjoy playing the music anymore, but because of what I have to deal with on typical jazz gigs. From my experience there is a lot of politics, unprofesionalism and BS with jazz gigs.

On the other hand, the non-jazz stuff (funk, R&B, hiphop) gigs I do are much more professional and fun. Musicians are actually responsible and people are actually listening to what you do, and they are more open about working with different people in general. I am sure the clique exist, but I don't notice it as much.

Right now I feel like it's way more fun to play a simple groove and really staying with it, instead of playing these complicated jazz stuff and feeling like there is no interaction and it's not swinging at all the whole time. I hate to put it this way, but lately I get bored doing jazz gigs because things just aren't happening in that respect.

I guess my question is, has your musical taste/preference changed after working/performing as a musician for some time? I still love jazz and that's what I mainly practice on my own, but I don't mind not playing jazz gigs at this point.

After 20 years in pure jazz I've been doing a gig with pop stuff, for over a year, and it blew my mind how different it was at all levels- more fun, more response from the public etc. Many pure jazz musicians hate me for that now.

But realistically, for the general public, jazz is boring. They just don't enjoy the spice of a tritone substitution, and that alt chord you use on bar 13 of Stella just doesn't thrill them that much.

So basically, in jazz you're looking at tons of work (articulation, language, styles, improvising a decent solo, etc) - all that to please a minority. It's a niche market and at this point I'm wondering if it's worth pursuing. There's so much work on details, and it doesnt seem to pay off that much.

I still do a lot of pure jazz gigs and enjoy it a lot but that other stuff- well I'm still trying to figure out what I should do. Learn more Beatles tunes, or keep working on Giant Steps ? Am I going to be great on Giant Steps ? I won't be great on the Beatles that's for sure but at least some people love me for it.

By the way, your gigs- funk, hip hop... sound a lot more fun than mine. I do piano with a singer, but being part of a band that plays that stuff, that must be awesome.

I think a lot of it has to do with the way people play jazz here. I feel like it's so by the book/academic that it kills the fun out of playing.. and the lack of interaction really kills my interest too. i get sick of just hearing swing feel/walking bass.. the same thing with no change for 2hrs. It's worse than playing with an abersold, and I feel like I am back in my freshman jazz combo.

Ya hip-hop gigs are great.. It's nice to have the audience cheer for you after a solo, and I love the energy of the crowd and musicians.. it's intense. That's the thing.. when you look at great jazz acts, it can be just as intense&inspiring.. so I am pretty sure it has more to do with how's its played than the music itself.

nothing wrong with taking a break. you do post about the difficulties you face. its not the music, its the people, and jazz is never a solo act, so you must play with others...

>> jazz is never a solo act, so you must play with others...
I think I know a few who are doing fairly well playing solo. Enjoying it, too... Can you think of anyone?

Yea, I guess the scene is only as good as the people in it, and frankly I don't like just how much clan-like politic/clique/attitude is going on in the jazz scene. A friend of mine just got fired all the sudden because they hired a new manager and the new manager decided to hire his friends instead. He was supposed to play till end of september. Things do get really ugly with people here.

I am sure things like this happens in non-jazz gigs too, but from my experience, the BS is much much less, and people tend to be much more professional. I've gotten so used to people being so flaky on my jazz gigs thaty I am surprised that all these people return my email regarding vital information in couple of days.

jazz tends to just end up being one large circle j. Like kids getting their cookie, lets all make sure everyone gets their solo in. The type of jazz that is just so obvious and predictable which given the fact that jazz is supposed to be anything but is what turns me off to most of it. Too many players tend to be self indulgent with no understanding of their purpose of an entertainer. I remember being at jazz louoge and the room was empty. Now most people with a brain would start quiet and slow but these guys just start playing ridiculous fast hard bop.

It is hard to find a great jazz group in an intimate setting but when you do , it is fantastic.

Etcetra, I think all of us dedicated jazz pianists/keyboardists have been where you're at in thinking about switching gears and thinking about getting into other musical styles as far as performing gigs. After I came to LA in the mid 70's from Berklee, my dream was to put together a Bill Evans type trio and just have the work pour in. However, that just wasn't the reality of the market. The bands that were working the most were T-40. cover bands, classic rock, etc. So I had to drop my concentration of just playing jazz and start learning other styles and tunes to get into bands that were working.

But as time went on, because I could play standards and cocktail music, that gave me an edge in cover bands, especially events that wanted a first set of background music. Cover bands were fun, but loud and I have permanent tinnitus due to all that high volume rock, blues and pop music I did.

Now, I am involved in several working jazz groups and we play well paid events, weddings, festivals and some clubs.

But you can always have your own jazz rehearsal trio, even if not for the art to keep you going and whether you make a decision to get paying gigs.

Since you live overseas, I am curious what type of styles pop and cover bands are playing to get work? Also, do you have a versatile keyboard rig and sound system to cover the main parts on cover tunes?

I have several keyboard options, but I usually take out my Casio Privia PX-200 88 weighted board that weighs about 25 lbs as a MIDI controller and take along a rack of 2-3 MIDI sound modules and an Alesis Nano-Verb. For speakers, I'm using the new Roland BA 330 Stereo amp which weighs about 30 lbs and a Behringer 12" speaker/tweeter to cover the lows. I have more than enough power and can always run a line out via a DI box to the sound man at a bigger venue. I mainly play acoustic piano samples, Rhodes, B-3 organs, vibes and string pads.

Anyway, that's my take on it and go with what your path takes you to get the work. katt

I recently sat in with a jazz group at a local bar/restaurant featuring a guitarist and singer. A flutist also sat in for a couple numbers.. We were all playing mostly the old standards such as Misty, Moonlight in Vermont, Bye Bye Blackbird, Stardust, etc. We all had little solos but not a lot of improvisation except for the guitarist, who was the leader and played a few longer jazz solos. The audience loved it! Do you think that's because we were playing well-known songs/standards?

Elssa,

How much do you play with jazz bands? I may be picker because I've been doing it for a while.. but I think most of it comes down to the vibe I get from other musicians. The people I play with at jazz gigs are so flaky and it's obvious they don't really care about the music, and I feel a huge disconnect with the musicians.

It's just that for some reason, the non-jazz gigs I get tend to be much more professional. I recently go this funk/R&B gig.. we talked on the phone about vital information and charts were sent to me within 1-2 days... But in most jazz gigs, I call/email people and they don't even bother to respond, so I don't know what is going on until I get to the gig, and I feel like I have to take the blame for not doing a good job, even though it's mostly because of other people being irresponsible.

MadforBrad,

I think it has to do with the fact that most jazz musicians here learned their craft through school and never really jammed/played outside the school bubble. I feel like a lot of jazz lacks the rawness that's present in good jazz/live music. When you hear great jazz players, you can hear their music comes from a strong need to express something, but I don't get that from people here... like there is no genuine fire propelling their music.

I also feel that a lot of playing can revolve about not making mistakes.. I think that's why someone rhythm section have this "abersold" mentality.. if you do anything out of the ordinary (even something as simple as pedal point) the soloist may find it uncomfortable and gives you a dirty look, so they learn to do everything 'by the book' all the time. But from what i know making mistakes and taking yourself&others out of comfort zone is what gives you the creative edge over other types of music.

It's ironic but somehow these performances I hear and take part of takes creativity&inspiration out of jazz

Most of the cover-charge paying public has given up on jazz, too. I love jazz - love to listen to good jazz; love to play it. The Lab-Band/big band stuff that is Kenton-esque stiff and doesn't swing turns me way off. The aebersold-esque cookie cutter stuff does too. If it is really good music, swings and has heart that is what I like. Elssa - Maybe the songbook sold the show, but I bet y'all were communicating with each other, swinging and just playing good jazz.

Yea I seem to get the extremes here. You either get the cookie cutter abersold jazz, or this extreme nerd jazz. I know people who are into playing really difficult poly-meter stuff, and most of time it sounds like they are doing it because they can. In some ways you can get way with not being musical in your playing because so many things are happening when you are playing... and their playing falls flat when they play a slow ballad, where you can't hide in the complexity of music.

I understand where they are coming from, I love Robert Glasper, Hiromi..etc..but the complexity of their music is there serve their musical expression, and it's not just for this sense of intellectual/macchismo sense of accomplishment.

I guess in that respect I find it easier to be "honest" with pop music.. You are allowed to play simple and enjoy it.

Maybe it has to do with the fact that I am in different places in my life musically.. I'd rather be able to play "Body and Soul" and make everything I play as beautiful/musical as I can, rather than trying to do Giant Steps at breakneck speed in 7(not that I can really do that well).

A friend visited recently for some computer advice. He's a reasonably well-known jazz player and teacher (not a pianist). We did what we had to do. Then he showed me his favourite varient of "Blues in F" and punched the chords into Band-in-a-Box. I played some choruses, he played some choruses. Then he played some MORE choruses. I wish I'd counted how many. But he'd have happily continued all night :-)

People get obsessed. A change is good.

I think it has a lot to do not so much with style, but with how you feel your music and how you communicate with the audience. I have heard New Orleans band that were totally boring, and New Orleans bands that were awesome, and bebop bands that were boring and others awesome.

You have to show confidence, have a sense of humor, and the musicians have to show that they're communicating together. This last point is the most important. After a good show, the people who come talk to the band all say the same thing "we can tell that you're having a good time together".

Did someone ever say "Tain't what you do, it's the way that'cha do it" ?

Since this stuff is not taught in schools, kids comin out of school have no clue.

Jazz isn't working so well these days because most of the time the people playing are concentrated on theory and rules (whatever the style, and again this includes New Orleans or swing), and are not too concerned with making sure the audience is having a good time. If the audience was bored, they're not coming back !

Well, to be honest, that was my first time playing with a jazz group for an audience..
I had taken a "jazz clinic" for two months with a great local guitarist/teacher: http://denniswinge.com/site/ Just trying to branch out from my usual solo cocktail style, and it was fun playing along with the other members in the class (guitarists, mandolin, etc). Dennis was kind enough to ask if I wanted to sit in sometime where he plays professionally, in a jam session after his sets with the singer. After we played "Misty", I asked the singer what she wanted to do next, and she said "Stardust". Well, I hadn't played that one in over a year, and they didn't have the lead sheet there, so I muddled through by ear. She said she wanted the key of "F", and I thought it was usually in the key of "C", but we managed. LOL Casual place and nice people along with my understanding/patient teacher made for a fun evening.

Do you ever play along with singers? That seems challenging to me, as they prefer and need certain keys.

That's really terrible that some people with the jazz gigs don't even bother to e-mail you back. Can imagine that would be very frustrating.

Elissa- One way to learn songs in a lot of keys is to accompany singers! and HSOTW - 'it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing'

I play every Friday and Saturday night, usually with a drummer and bassist at a local restaurant. If I played the same tunes in the same way with the same people every night, it would get boring after a while.

So I mix it up. I have a lineup of three drummers and three bassists that I rotate - each brings different strengths and personalities to the music. Sometimes I just have a duo with a bassist or guitarist or saxophonist.

I play different tunes each week (in addition to some favorites) and I mix it up between slow, medium, fast, 4/4, bossas, 3/4 and the 5/4 Take Five.

And I've started to challenge myself by singing. I never had much confidence in my voice, but I'm getting better the more I do it. Vocals almost always get more of an audience response than instrumentals, which are easier to compartmentalize as background music. Last week one older woman gave me a kiss on the cheek after I sang a version of Over the Rainbow that touched her.

So my advice is to mix it up and challenge yourself to keep the music fresh.

I guess that's one of the problem with the music scene here. It's a very very small community but there is this huge click among different groups of jazz musicians. On top of that, there is very limited supply of good musicians out there.

And I've realized that most of the jazz guys will never call me for their gigs for the same reason too. They will rather call a 2nd year music student in their click than call me for a gig. At first I was kind of bothered by this, but then I realize that it was happening to a lot of good musicians here.

I know this may sound crazy but this is just how things are here. I know this band that has been playing with the same member for the last 10+years. Even the piano player admits her rhythm section is not great. But she told me she plays with them because they are "dependable". For me it will drive me crazy if I played with the same people for that long with no change.

I tried to reach out as much as I can to call different kinds of musicians, but I end up only playing with the same people for this reason.

I guess that's part of the reason I enjoy non-jazz gigs more, because I feel less of that click from people. They seem to be more open about playing with people they've never played with.

Daviel - I'm pretty good with playing by ear and transposing to most keys, but with a complicated song like Misty (lots of chord changes), I have trouble doing it (transposing) on the spot up to tempo, so rely more on my memory of the chord progressions in certain keys. When we all agreed to perform "Misty" that night, I'd forgotten about the singer and just launched it off in my usual key of C, then noticed the singer, who usually has a lovely voice, was sounding a little squeaky and had sort of a pained look on her face. She stopped singing after a few bars, so it ended up being a solo by me. I probably should have chosen the key of Eb, another key I'm very comfortable with. I agree, though, it's a great learning experience as well as fun to accompany singers! So nice to play along with anyone when you're used to just playing alone all the time - very inspiring.

BTW, a couple years ago I had joined a local Jazz Meetup group where about 25 people were listed online as members, and I was just about the only member who showed up to the meetups. They were held by a small group of jazz musicians performing at a restaurant. I wonder if more would have come Saturday nights rather than Thursdays, a work night.

Sometimes you can round-up or round=down to fool a singer into a key you'd rather play in. I am always amused when a singer starts discussing keys. I have gotten to where I just play in whatever key they like. I look at it as a challenge.

I guess like anything else you do, you get more used to it the more you do it. Keys doesn't bother me as much anymore but then again I've had plenty of experiences screwing up in practice and gigs.

I think playing with any type of group, with a singer or not, is a challenge, much more so than playing solo, so I give you all a lot of credit. Do you usually rehearse together or just "wing it" at the performance? I'll never forget as a music major in college being required to take a semester playing in a chamber music group.. It was me on the harpsichord, a bassist, and two flutists (boy & girl). Well, I was the only one who showed up for the required scheduled rehearsals. These were difficult Bach pieces that really needed to be rehearsed, and these jokers never bothered. Needless to say, we sounded like _ell at the recital! So anyway, I know a little bit what's it like when other musicians don't cooperate. If they're playing professionally now somewhere, sure hope they're a little more thoughtful.

I can only speak from my experience but I feel like I am forced to wing it way more than I'd like... and often times it's a lot worse than just not practicing. I had this gig where the singer didn't call me back about the set list until few hours before the gig..Other times the bass player who was supposed to bring the music "forgot" to make copies of the music, showed up 5 min before the gig (we were supposed to be meet much earlier to run the tunes).. so he ended up giving me all his music and I played duets for the entire set."

I guess the problem is that a lot of musicians out there are burned out and their attitude is "I am going to make as much money as I can with the least effort I can put into it". I am not saying everyone is like that, but my take on the 'real world' is that this happens way more than you'd like to think.

I hear you, Etcetra... I don't like most chamber music, but I gave it my all and showed up to those rehearsals anyway. I agree, musicians need to support each other, especially these days.

In my region it's not the style of music, it's finding people who are sensitive and listen deeply and play nicely. And whom you enjoy being with on the gig. I am lucky to live in a part of the USA that has a large number of great jazz musicians so it has just been a matter of picking the really nice people to play with, the ones that I enjoy working with and being around. I will not call the great players anymore who I don't enjoy being with. I want to be with nice people who I trust , where nobody 's feelings get hurt, where we try to support each other as much as possible.

Where is this?

The guys I play with, we take care of each other. We have a laugh and are like a big extended family. It settles everyone down. Everyone knows everyone's having a good time and it brings out the best in people. You relax and you're real. That's what it's all about. To enjoy what you're doing for the people. If you're enjoying it, then they're enjoying it. It's so important.

Jazz+, as usual, is right! One has to be comfortable and with trustworthy players who listen. The support and congeniality make the music special and the audience sees the band having a good time, they have a good time, too.

jazz+ and Daviel

I guess it all comes down to the people I met here. It's been 3 years since I've moved back from US, and the people I trust and connect with, like you've described are the members of hiphop band and other non-jazz projects. I feel like I belong in that group of people..on the other hand, I've pretty much given up on making inroads with the jazz crowd here. I guess the funny thing is that I never thought I'd enjoy doing non-jazz stuff like I do now. If it was me 5 years ago I would have to turned it down to focus more on jazz, which is what most jazzers do here.

This kind of makes me wonder how much environment influences you to become the player you are, or will be. I had a talk with a good musician friend about this guy who is a well known-composer for certain types of music, but he ended up doing different music here, because he wasn't getting the kind of support he was getting here.

I think it matters a lot.

For example jazz isn't played exactly the same way in France, Germany, or NYC. It's like speaking a language and picking up expressions or accents of where you are.

And then you're going to meet people who are into tango, or Brazilian music, etc. And you play what you gotta play.

Bottom line- you're influenced by the greats that you like, but also by the (living) people you meet.

BTW where are you ? Did you say something like Thailand or Korea in another thread ?

Yea I agree. There is definitely a vibrant hiphop scene where I live, (and so does many other Asian countries).. and in some ways I can relate to the youthfulness and the energy of that scene more so than doing jazz gigs at lounge bar, art houses and universities. I enjoy the raw energy that the band and the audience creates, which I haven't experienced in jazz gigs here.

I'd go with it! You are going to be good at what you like. If that is the good scene where you are just go with it. That's what I'd do. The idea is to express yourself, say what's inside you. You found a fine niche. Work within it. Report back and fill us in on your adventures.

Ha. I remember having an older lady whisper "Can you play stardust?" in my ear as I was playing a solo gig in a bar long ago... made me quit those gigs for awhile.

Music/Boring - here's an interesting quote from Billy Joel about that: He said that recently he was playing a concert and in the middle of one of his tunes his mind was drifting off to the BBQ he was planning for friends. "At that point, I knew I was done". Since then, I've seen him reinvent himself and come back to play, so maybe he's doing exactly what DaveRobertsJazz was saying "mix it up and challenge yourself to keep the music fresh."

Could be worse ! Stardust is a pretty good song and you can challenge yourself by playing it in a different key every time.

If the lady had requested something like My Way ... then you could complain !

True. I guess I was overcome with the smoke and vodka breath. But since that time I have discovered Stardust... love to hear Nat sing it! Favorite moment is when he sings the phrase "...spend the lonely night.." what a super fat chord.

exactly right, you can masturbate at home not at stage.

What does the above post have to do with musical "masturbation"?
Even the most honest and thoughtful jazz quite often goes unacknowledged. If you want to talk about masturbation, look no further than the majority of ego driven garbage you see on MTV.

not with above post but with jazz pseudo improvisations which are very common recently. Believe me if it was any good it would be acknowledged.



that's arguable but at least they have an audience...

I've been really stuggling lately with my cyclic enthusiasm for jazz - I'll hear Hiromi playing something from the Stratosphere and I'll head off to my Yamaha for a couple days till the fingers bleed. But then I venture out into my city... there's not much music happening and I totally get down about it. Gosh I sound like a drama queen, but it bugs me. Maybe it's cyclic? Maybe music and culture will rebound? Yes please.