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#1739748 - 08/24/11 02:26 PM Re: Studiologic Numa Piano [Re: PianoZac]
Tom F Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/23/11
Posts: 32
Loc: Mi
"Grand Piano 1 and Bright Grand sound good until you really attack it, then that ugly DP sound rears its head." The Numa piano has an amazing dynamic range available depending on how you strike the keys and which velocity sensitivity level you use. I found that the "harshness" comes into play when you really hit the keys hard because you are actually overdriving it and redlining the input downstream. I solved this problem by using a Radial JDI after the keyboard. I used the Radial JDI previously to "sum" my Nords to mono (without phase distortion) and send a balanced signal. With the Numa/JDI combination the harshness disappears and a nice, smooth, quiet, balanced, mic level signal is produced. If you don't have a JDI, you will need to pay close attention to your velocity settings to make sure you're not overdriving the input(s) of your mixer/preamp/recorder.
_________________________
Tom

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#1739773 - 08/24/11 03:20 PM Re: Studiologic Numa Piano [Re: Tom F]
voxpops Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 2918
Loc: Oregon
Useful info, Tom. Thanks!

Did you see my question about the soundpack revision? Have you upgraded?

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#1739800 - 08/24/11 04:01 PM Re: Studiologic Numa Piano [Re: voxpops]
Tom F Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/23/11
Posts: 32
Loc: Mi
No, I heard there was an upgrade available with some substantial improvements, but I'm in the middle of doing a bunch of festivals and some recordings and I didn't want to risk any unforseen issues during my busy season. I got bit a few years back doing an OS upgrade on a Kurzweil module that locked up and crashed during the upgrade, so these days I either have a backup instrument available, or at least some extra time available just in case. Where is the download available? I've got some slack time coming up in a few weeks and I'd like to get on that.
That is one really nice thing about the Nords ... easy upgrades and nice loader.
_________________________
Tom

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#1739822 - 08/24/11 04:19 PM Re: Studiologic Numa Piano [Re: Tom F]
voxpops Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 2918
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: Tom F
No, I heard there was an upgrade available with some substantial improvements, but I'm in the middle of doing a bunch of festivals and some recordings and I didn't want to risk any unforseen issues during my busy season. I got bit a few years back doing an OS upgrade on a Kurzweil module that locked up and crashed during the upgrade, so these days I either have a backup instrument available, or at least some extra time available just in case. Where is the download available? I've got some slack time coming up in a few weeks and I'd like to get on that.
That is one really nice thing about the Nords ... easy upgrades and nice loader.


Oh, I hear you! It scares the pants off me doing these firmware updates - particularly when they're as large as this one:
Numa Piano Pack 1 Update
You can find the piano loader software in the same part of the website.

What doesn't fill me with confidence is the fact that Studiologic appears to have three or four unconnected websites, and it's extremely difficult to find your way to the downloads section.

Anyway, it'll be interesting to compare before and after.


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#1739870 - 08/24/11 05:16 PM Re: Studiologic Numa Piano [Re: voxpops]
Tom F Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/23/11
Posts: 32
Loc: Mi
Thanks! I'll keep you posted when I do it. I did an upgrade on my Numa organ last winter and it wasn't too difficult. I still haven't downloaded any of the "new" models though (for the same reason I mentioned). Now you've got me all excited about doing the upgrade. I'm going to have to force myself not to mess with it for a few weeks, and it isn't going to be easy. grin
PS: I just pulled up the website for Guitar Center and saw both the Numa Organ & Numa Piano listed for sale on it. Maybe they will eventually stock these things so that people can check them out.


Edited by Tom F (08/24/11 07:12 PM)
_________________________
Tom

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#1741302 - 08/26/11 11:39 PM Re: Studiologic Numa Piano [Re: Qbert]
voxpops Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 2918
Loc: Oregon
OK, this is looking interesting!

The Numa Piano arrived a few hours ago. It was nice that they included a user manual - it would have been even nicer if it had been the correct one! I set it up, turned on and ran through the sounds: generally favorable. Action: rather like some of the Privias I've owned; quite heavy and will take a bit of practice to overcome the tendency for softer notes to register a lower velocity than expected, but generally quite playable. (I haven't tried the auto velocity curve function yet.)

I then took the bull by the horns and upgraded the firmware and software. I nearly screwed that up as I wasn't sure when the main file had finished loading. But in the end I think I got it all loaded. What a difference! The first piano sound is big, sparkling and just sounds great. The second piano (labeled bright) now seems more like the original #1 piano with more mellow pianissimo sounds, and is also very usable. The Rhodes (unchanged) growls and barks nicely with higher velocities and has a more bell-like tine sound when played softer. The Wurli (also unchanged) is a pretty good likeness. The Clav spits with a nice fast attack (quite a lot more playable than the pre-update original). The pads organs and basses are so-so, but at least there is a basic rotary speaker sim that can be controlled by the mod wheel. That wheel is also used to control tremolo and phaser speed etc., along with a dedicated depth-control knob.

It seems like there's lots of midi functionality built in, and easy to access from the front panel. I haven't really looked into the additional controls, but at first glance it looks like there's most of what you need right there in front of you.

I had one little scare. After inadvertently interrupting the update process I thought I may have screwed things up. But after I rebooted and reset the factory programs, the piano seemed to play and operate fine (apart from the Bright Piano being more mellow!). However, when I changed from program 12 to program 1, the sound cut out. I rebooted and everything was fine. I'll keep an eye out for other little anomalies or hiccups.

But, with just a few minutes (and I stress this) playing time on this board, it's looking very promising. There is, as Tom says, a huge dynamic range available (much more than the NP) - and it sounds pretty darn good! The action will take a little bit of time to adjust to, but I expected that given the very low weight of this keyboard. Right now, I really am pleasantly surprised. I'll try to give a more detailed review when I've spent some "quality" time with the board.


Edited by voxpops (08/26/11 11:46 PM)

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#1741565 - 08/27/11 01:56 PM Re: Studiologic Numa Piano [Re: Qbert]
voxpops Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 2918
Loc: Oregon
Quick update:
No sympathetic resonance or (as far as I can tell) damper resonance. So if you're looking for an acoustic-facsimile, this probably won't do it for you. However, it sounds pretty good even without these subtleties.

This would suggest to me that the AP sounds are straight samples, without modeling. Less easy to tell with the EPs. I have to say that the Rhodes is really rather good.

It's looking like a keeper for gigging purposes. I find the sounds very pleasing for the most part, and with the OS update, there are additional refinements to the effects section that make it more immediate. I would be less inclined to go for it as a home acoustic-substitute, simply because technology now allows for a more refined piano experience (as with the FP-7F etc.).

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#1741601 - 08/27/11 03:28 PM Re: Studiologic Numa Piano [Re: Qbert]
voxpops Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 2918
Loc: Oregon
I don't think there are any key-up samples (although I could be wrong), or pedal noises. Certainly this is nowhere near as sophisticated as my old GEM PRP800 (another Italian DP), and yet I like it.

I'm sure this DP will make its presence felt in a band context. And, with that in mind, a middle cut/boost knob in addition to bass and treble eq would have been helpful, as the mids could do with taming a little.

Maybe the samples are longer than normal, I'm not sure. Unlike Tom, I think there is looping going on. But what they have put in there seems to work well.

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#1741612 - 08/27/11 03:47 PM Re: Studiologic Numa Piano [Re: Qbert]
thomsurf Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/01/10
Posts: 151
Loc: Copenhagen, Denmark
Thanks for your words on the Numa P so far, Voxpops. Is the decay rate around the same as on your FP-7F?
_________________________
Roland RD800, JBL PRX612M.

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#1741653 - 08/27/11 05:22 PM Re: Studiologic Numa Piano [Re: thomsurf]
voxpops Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 2918
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: thomsurf
Thanks for your words on the Numa P so far, Voxpops. Is the decay rate around the same as on your FP-7F?

Thomsurf, I think it's similar. Certainly it doesn't have the short attack/decay of the Privias.

I am pretty convinced that these are looped samples but they may be a little longer than usual. We're certainly not talking ultra-sophistication. The Nord is a much more polished instrument in many respects, but the Numa doesn't exhibit the traits that I found irritating in the Nord: lack of dynamic range, that slightly "harpsichordy" sound from the middle register, a sense that there should be more timbre variation available from the EPs. And of course it's only a little over half the price of the Nord. And when I compare the Numa to the Rolands, I am much more pleased with the EP sound and response.

However, I really don't want to paint an unrealistically glowing picture of the Numa. Having just swapped the Nord for the Numa, I really want to like it, so I may be a little more favorably disposed than someone without a vested interest! All I can say is that I think it will work fine for my needs in a band context (and will save my back from additional wear and tear), but for home use where the subtleties and nuances of sound engines are more apparent, the FP-7F will be my go-to instrument.

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#1741728 - 08/27/11 07:52 PM Re: Studiologic Numa Piano [Re: Qbert]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8387
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
How about a DPBSD recording for dewster?

James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1741734 - 08/27/11 08:07 PM Re: Studiologic Numa Piano [Re: Kawai James]
voxpops Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 2918
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
How about a DPBSD recording for dewster?

James
x

I was wondering when I'd be asked for that! wink Yes, if I can work out how to do it, I'll try to get something to Dewster. It won't be immediately as I have a busy schedule right now, but I'll get on to that when I have some time available.

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#1741813 - 08/27/11 11:15 PM Re: Studiologic Numa Piano [Re: Kawai James]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4271
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
How about a DPBSD recording for dewster?

Yes please!
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1741816 - 08/27/11 11:17 PM Re: Studiologic Numa Piano [Re: Qbert]
voxpops Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 2918
Loc: Oregon
Fairly heavy stretching is involved as well. One or two of the groups stand out rather obviously, particularly in the upper mids. This is clearly no Roland (or Kawai) rival in the technology department.

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#1741878 - 08/28/11 01:25 AM Re: Studiologic Numa Piano [Re: Tom F]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2474
Originally Posted By: Tom F
"Grand Piano 1 and Bright Grand sound good until you really attack it, then that ugly DP sound rears its head." The Numa piano has an amazing dynamic range available depending on how you strike the keys and which velocity sensitivity level you use. I found that the "harshness" comes into play when you really hit the keys hard because you are actually overdriving it and redlining the input downstream.


I think that there are many DP's that have the "harshness" you describe above, especially when you play with extreme force of attack, "then that ugly DP sounds rears its head."

My current Casio AP-620 shows this same behavior, when playing fortissimo (or, louder) octaves from the Rachmaninoff Piano Concerto No. 1. Have included a test recording* here, to illustrate that:

http://www.box.net/shared/lkdj2pvn3q21ajfmeent

Must be that the sample levels are exceeded in the loudest playing, and, things get a bit jangled up due to being overdriven.

One has to get the best Kawai's, Yamaha's, or, Roland's, to avoid this.

* Test recording includes:

1) Opening section from Piano Concerto No. 1, of Rachmaninoff.
2) Snippets from the Scherzo No. 2, of Chopin.
3) Two-handed chromatic octave scales.

Please note that this recording is an example of the loudest possible playing on a DP, with the chromatic octave scales at the end being the heaviest playing of all. Had I been playing my meager little acoustic Wurlitzer spinet, many bass strings could have snapped!

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#1741900 - 08/28/11 02:59 AM Re: Studiologic Numa Piano [Re: pv88]
Dave Ferris Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 1675
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
Thanks for posting all your initial thoughts vp.....
_________________________
http://soundcloud.com/dave-ferris

2005 NY Steinway D, Nord Piano 2

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#1741901 - 08/28/11 03:07 AM Re: Studiologic Numa Piano [Re: Dave Ferris]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2474
Hi Dave,

My playing is far from perfect, however, it is very loud...
(Only heavy handed pianists seem to appreciate this.)

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#1742184 - 08/28/11 05:30 PM Re: Studiologic Numa Piano [Re: Qbert]
voxpops Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 2918
Loc: Oregon
OK, the software (update) is definitely buggy. I have double-checked by reloading the update pack. When programming, everything goes fine until, suddenly, the sound quits altogether, and nothing other than a restart will bring it back. Sometimes this happens when flicking through presets as well. This also means that whatever effects you were last programming gets flashed to ALL preset patches. This has now occurred on at least three occasions, so either my machine or the software, or both, is at fault. I suspect it is the software, and connected to the part of the update that now allows the piano to remember the effects settings on the fly.

Fortunately, the piano is very easy to tweak live, so this is not a deal-breaker, but it is annoying, and seems to reinforce Studiologic's reputation in this regard. I shall contact Studiologic and ask them to send me the previous software until the problem is resolved.

I shall persevere with this DP as I do quite like it - especially since activating the automatic velocity curve function, which works very well - but if the manufacturer wants to compete in the mainstream, they're going to have to put a bit more effort into programming and debugging their software. The way things stand right now, I think the Numa Piano is seriously overpriced for what it offers, and doesn't stack up with the likes of the PX-3 for value. BUT, it still has something about it that keeps me interested, and when I compare it to the FP-4 (my alternative lightweight board) it definitely has the edge, sound-wise; however, in terms of quality/reliability I suspect the Roland is ahead by a wide margin.

PLEASE SEE MY POST BELOW FOR A RESOLUTION TO THIS PROBLEM.


Edited by voxpops (08/28/11 07:25 PM)

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#1742241 - 08/28/11 07:24 PM Re: Studiologic Numa Piano [Re: Qbert]
voxpops Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 2918
Loc: Oregon
Right! Now I think I get it. You can't store settings for all 12 sounds in one patch - the system can't cope. You have to store the setting for one sound per patch. It's a bit rudimentary, but at least the thing hasn't crapped out on me since I discovered this. So, I am much happier now!

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#1742382 - 08/28/11 11:50 PM Re: Studiologic Numa Piano [Re: Qbert]
voxpops Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 2918
Loc: Oregon
The piano now seems much more stable. I have managed to program in 25 sounds without a glitch, and all seems well. I will watch to see if the sound cut-out problem reappears; if not, I'm happy to move forward with the Numa as is, without trying to revert to earlier firmware or some other drastic solution.

Next big test will be to see how the band responds, and how I feel playing it in a group setting. Watch this space (if I haven't bored you all to tears with my Numa saga)!

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#1742454 - 08/29/11 05:29 AM Re: Studiologic Numa Piano [Re: Qbert]
thomsurf Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/01/10
Posts: 151
Loc: Copenhagen, Denmark
Not boring at all, Voxpops. It's great to follow your experience step by step. Keep it coming!
_________________________
Roland RD800, JBL PRX612M.

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#1742565 - 08/29/11 11:24 AM Re: Studiologic Numa Piano [Re: Qbert]
PianoZac Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1418
Thanks Vox for the updates. We've really heard very little about the Numa Piano so it's nice to hear back to very useful feedback and input. There's been several folks on here interested, but because of the seemingly lack of reviews, lack of info in general, I think the Numa Piano has remained relatively anonymous.
_________________________
Kawai RX-2
Nord Piano 2


"Life is a lot like jazz...it's best when you improvise."

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#1742612 - 08/29/11 01:05 PM Re: Studiologic Numa Piano [Re: voxpops]
Tom F Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/23/11
Posts: 32
Loc: Mi
Thanks for sharing your experiences. I think you'll really start enjoying it even more using it live. I LOVE the weight of the thing and have found that (for me anyway) the APs work well in the mix and I get a LOT of compliments on the Rhodes sound. Your comments on the upgrade improvements REALLY made me want to go ahead with the upgrade, but I'd be in deep doo-doo if I messed it up with 3 festivals coming up this week, so I'd best hold off on that. I did get mine painted so now the sides, keyrail, and the strip under the front are all black. It looks a lot less "chunky" and matches the Numa Organ a lot better now.
_________________________
Tom

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#1742831 - 08/29/11 07:36 PM Re: Studiologic Numa Piano [Re: voxpops]
Tom F Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/23/11
Posts: 32
Loc: Mi
How long did it take to do the update? Is there anything I should watch out for?
_________________________
Tom

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#1742847 - 08/29/11 08:06 PM Re: Studiologic Numa Piano [Re: Tom F]
voxpops Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 2918
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: Tom F
How long did it take to do the update? Is there anything I should watch out for?

Tom, the update took about an hour (although I did it three times before I got the issues sorted!). There are three files to update: the first takes a few seconds; the second is the big one that takes the best part of an hour (be careful not to interrupt it); the third is like the first - a few seconds.

It's not a difficult process. You just need to install the piano uploader software first, and then follow the instructions in the Word doc. Remember to do the final step, which involves a factory restore upon rebooting. Then you'll need to reformulate all your presets.

Interesting to hear that you repainted. I was surprised that they didn't match the piano and organ more closely (visually) to start with.

Can't wait to give it a good workout with the band!

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#1742855 - 08/29/11 08:25 PM Re: Studiologic Numa Piano [Re: PianoZac]
voxpops Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 2918
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: ZacharyForbes
Thanks Vox for the updates. We've really heard very little about the Numa Piano so it's nice to hear back to very useful feedback and input. There's been several folks on here interested, but because of the seemingly lack of reviews, lack of info in general, I think the Numa Piano has remained relatively anonymous.


Zac, I usually wait for everyone else to try something before I leap in! This time, Tom F's posts were enough for me to give the Numa a whirl. In the lightweight league, there was little left for me to try before I threw in the towel, signed up at a gym, and bought one of the heavyweights.

The Numa organ and piano are real oddballs in a way. I'm surprised that they were launched at their current prices. To gain market traction with unknown and untried products you need to attract people to dip their toe in the water. Perhaps because the organ market these days is small and tight-knit, word got around about the Numa Organ - and it's very good (which helps) although I wish it had just a little more bite at the top end.

But the piano market is very crowded. Kawai seemingly gives you a lot more for the same money with their MP6, and Casio are vacuuming up the low end very efficiently. The Numa Piano specs are limited, and because of the lack of opportunity to try one, few are going to opt for an unknown product from a company with dubious heritage. The fact remains, though, that aside from the Casio, it's the lightest hammer action DP available - and it sounds different. It may not be everyone's cup of tea, but it covers the bases pretty well. And that auto velocity-curve function is a real boon, given the nature of the action.

If it behaves itself, it's going to make my gigging life significantly easier.

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#1742888 - 08/29/11 09:37 PM Re: Studiologic Numa Piano [Re: voxpops]
Tom F Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/23/11
Posts: 32
Loc: Mi
Yes, I'm surprised that they didn't color coordinate them as well (at least paint the bottom 1" and the front rail black like the organ). I suspect though that they will eventually be available with custom colors.
_________________________
Tom

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#1742937 - 08/29/11 11:06 PM Re: Studiologic Numa Piano [Re: Qbert]
voxpops Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 2918
Loc: Oregon
Latest update:
Sound went dead again when changing presets. Not good.

I have a sneaking suspicion that it could be to do with either keys being depressed when the change happens, or possibly the pedal. The bizarre thing is that all the function lights still work after this happens, but the sound just vanishes, and only a restart brings it back.

No response to the email I sent to Studiologic about this problem, yesterday.

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#1743098 - 08/30/11 07:30 AM Re: Studiologic Numa Piano [Re: voxpops]
Tom F Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/23/11
Posts: 32
Loc: Mi
You may want to consider trying it a 4th time. I did the upgrade last night and it came out good. The large file took 1 hr 15 minutes. The sounds came out very much as you described except the bright piano did come out a little brighter than the grand piano, and not at all like the original grand piano. It's really hard to tell when everything IS actually loaded (the loader software needs a lot of work).
Here is the email address of a person at Numa that may be able to help: carlo.maffei@fatar.com He was very helpful when I was having issues upgrading my Numa organ. You may also want to contact American Music & Sound. They are responsible for Numa service issues in North America:
1-800-431-2609
info@americanmusicandsound.com


Edited by Tom F (08/30/11 07:40 AM)
_________________________
Tom

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#1743154 - 08/30/11 10:27 AM Re: Studiologic Numa Piano [Re: Tom F]
voxpops Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 2918
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: Tom F
You may want to consider trying it a 4th time. I did the upgrade last night and it came out good. The large file took 1 hr 15 minutes. The sounds came out very much as you described except the bright piano did come out a little brighter than the grand piano, and not at all like the original grand piano. It's really hard to tell when everything IS actually loaded (the loader software needs a lot of work).
Here is the email address of a person at Numa that may be able to help: carlo.maffei@fatar.com He was very helpful when I was having issues upgrading my Numa organ. You may also want to contact American Music & Sound. They are responsible for Numa service issues in North America:
1-800-431-2609
info@americanmusicandsound.com


Thanks for the info, Tom, and glad the update worked for you. Dave Ferris had given me a contact at American Music and Sound, so I emailed him last night. I'll send another to Carlo if I can't get any answers.

BTW, how do you like the revisions? I launched into the update straight away so only have a fleeting impression of the pre-update sounds.

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