Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum C.Bechstein vs. Bechstein

OK.... my turn. There's been quite a bit of incorrect info on this thread, so I wanted to clear it up.

The three main areas of confusion seems to be the name C. Bechstein vs. plain old Bechstein, where they are being made, and what impact their connection with Samick will have on them.

First the short answer, then the long one:

There are no pianos being made with just the name Bechstein. All Bechstein pianos say C. Bechstein.

All C. Bechstein pianos are made in Germany, by Bechstein.

Yes, Samick is now a majority owner of Bechstein. But.... Bechstein is also now a sizeable owner of Samick (and now as you know, Young Chang too). Bechstein was not in need of capital, they did not have to sell, and if it turns out to be a bad deal, I assure you that Karl Schulz is more than capable of buying back the shares and calling the whole thing off. Samick is *not* telling Bechstein how to build pianos. It is the other way around.

Now, the long answer:

At one point, Bechstein was owned by Baldwin. Baldwin wanted to sell, and Karl Schulz bought it, wanting to return the legendary name back to German ownership. He assembled a masterful management team, and took the company back almost immediately to its former prominence. The company was making lots of money. The biggest problem was distribution outside Western Europe.

Then came the unification of the two Germanys. After the wall was torn down, the German government found East Germany to be in shambles economically. Most of the industries there were not competitive, and wouldn't be able to survive privatization. Lots of people would lose their jobs. Something had to be done. So the German government went to select industries in West Germany that were financially sound, and made attractive offers to those who would buy and operate the companies that were in trouble of collapsing. Bechstein was asked to take on the Zimmerman factory.

The Zimmerman factory was of course state owned. It also owned the names W. Hoffmann, and Feurich. Bechstein did a cost analysis of the one grand piano Zimmerman produced, a little 4'9" thing - and found it was costing them 5 times as much to build it as they were selling it wholesale.

Welcome to communism......

A complete revamping of the company was needed. The main goal of course, was to see that as many as possible of the employees kept their jobs. Bechstein turned the factory into one of the most modern facilities in the piano industry in short order, designed new models, and made the Zimmerman name their second tier line of German built pianos. The Feurich family, who had had their business taken from them by the communists, were keenly interested in purchasing their brand name back. Bechstein agreed to sell it to them, and the Feurich family contracted with Schimmel to build pianos for them under the Feurich label. That left the W. Hoffmann. It was decided that the W. Hoffmann would be contracted out to allow for a third tier product. This contract was initially let to Petrof. Bechstein introduced a 4th brand, Euterpe, which I believe is contract built in Poland. Neither the Zimmerman nor the Euterpe are exported.

For a very short period, Bechstein thought it would be a good idea to start a lower priced line of German built Bechstein pianos and identify them as merely Bechstein. One model was chosen to start, with plans to introduce a few more. This model was the A-189. It was the only piano in the line that didn't have an open faced pinblock. It also cost a lot less to build - at 6'2" it was almost half the price of the the M Classic, which is only a 5'11".

So - the A-189 was changed to say only Bechstein, with more models planned to come. Bosendorfer was toying with a lower line too, and neither company had yet figured out the right way to offer it. Both companies were wanting to offer their brand name on a line that would price compete with Steinway.

They didn't realize how low their competition could stoop however... Dealers of competitive brands all over the place started telling people that "if it only says Bechstein on it, it's not a real Bechstein. It's built by someone else, and they're just sticking their name on it. Buy my XXXXX instead - it's a *real* German piano"....

So the A-189 went back to being a C. Bechstein, and the marketing guys went back to the drawing board. Knowing they couldn't monkey with the name, the decided that rather than design new models, they would look for ways to lower the cost of existing models - and the Academy series was born. Matte finishes, plate finishes that didn't require polishing, and no open faced pinblocks - the only concessions made on existing models, make up the Academy series. They are still labeled C. Bechstein.

If anyone saw a piano that only said Bechstein on it at NAMM, they either saw an old A-189, or Bechstein badged a prototype of one of the two new sized grands with an old A-189 fallboard. But whatever it was, there are no Bechstein grands, only C. Bechstein.

Back to the W. Hoffmann: The idea was that Petrof would build the piano up to nearly complete, and it would get its final prep and setup by the Bechstein craftsmen. They soon discovered however, that Petrof was so inconsistent in their workmanship that they were basically having to nearly build them all over again to fix the many flaws in the pianos. The work required to get the pianos up to standard was resulting in very little cost savings when all was said and done, and to make it worse, Petrof didn't seem to care one way or the other. As soon as there contract ran out, they ceased to use Petrof for building the W. Hoffmanns, and the last I heard that contract was given to Bohemia. The quality of the Bohemia product I understand has proven to be miles ahead of what Petrof was turning out.

Bechstein had gone public in 1997. The company was growing quite nicely, profits were good, the company was solid. When other companies started running 4 day work weeks a couple of years ago, Bechstein was still working 5 days a week. When some companies were actually working every other week, Bechstein was still running 5 days a week, every week. They did not, and still have not had to close for a single day's production. They did not "need" for another company to purchase them.

They *did* need better distribution however, and Samick could give it to them. They also realized that the piano industry is shrinking, and it is better to be part of a big player than it is to stay a small independent player. So to that end, Bechstein and Samick entered into negotiations, and a deal was struck. Samick has a well organized distribution network set up worldwide. Joining them gave Bechstein access to that. Bear in mind also - while Samick now owns a big chunk of Bechstein, Bechstein now owns a chunk of Samick. They now act as the distributor of Samick products in Europe as well. Also, Samick owns the Knabe and Sohmer names, and both of these marques are scheduled for big things as a result of this merger. Also it should not be forgotten that as a sizeable owner of Samick, they now also own a sizeable share of Young Chang.

No, there will not be any Korean built Bechsteins. No, there will not be any funny "Bechsteins" floating around. No, the value of your Bechstein will not be affected. All Bechsteins are C. Bechsteins, and all are made in Germany. It may be that the Euterpe line gets build in Korea, I don't know. But what you *can* look forward to is the possibility of German built Knabes, or German designed Knabes, or Knabes that are built in Korea by employees trained by German craftsmen, then shipped to Germany for final preparation and setup.

There is going to be some neat stuff come out of Korea as a result of this merger sometime in the near future. But Bechstein is Bechstein - and Karl Schultz will not allow Bechstein to be anything but.

Impressive reply - Bravo.

Charles

Larry,

Thanks for your post. As usual, your input adds clarity and dispels the rumor-mongering. My faith and confidence in this fine piano maker is restored.

Danke,
JP

sorry I am still learning how to quote....the question that IB posed is very interesting I am interested in an answer

Larry,

Just some lose ends... quoting from Gene Grant's earlier post:
Can I assume that the above refers to the A-189 and its "simplifications" as you explained? (The "new" brochure would not be so new in that case.)

If not, would you by any chance know what exactly are the "simplifications" made "in conjunction to modern technology, materials, and other pertinent resources available internationally, thereby reducing costs in the previously very involved, strictly hand crafted production procedures..." that the alleged new Bechstein brochure talks about?

I realize that we have to wait until we get to play the new pianos to judge them. Still, assuming Bechstein did publish that brochure and that it is up-to-date and was quoted correctly, it would be interesting to know what/how have Bechstein changed their material and piano making processes.

Of course, if the quoted brochure is out-of-date, all bets are off -- all this outrage over Bechstein's alleged brand-dilution for nothing.

With all due respect to Larry, I still have some serious doubt myself that the 'merger] of Bechstein and Samick [and Young Chang... ]was really all that glorious and successful as hoped for and described.

Despite all the polite smiles and handshakes,
Mr. Schulz certainly didn't seem to be in an opera singing mood when I spoke to him during last NAMM.

Nor appeared to be his techs.

Only time will tell if this new venture will turn out to be the success it was hoped for or simply become another Mercedes-Chrysler type experience.

Coming from a family with several members having worked at Bechstein for over 40 years myself,I very sincerely wish them certainly all the very best.

As they used to say:

"Berlin bleibt doch Berlin"

We hope.

norbert

Now that is a puzzle.....

I checked their website, and there is no mention of them reviving the Bechstein name without the C. Also, in looking at all the various distributors around the world, the only one who lists "Bechstein" is Samick.

Let me amend my post then.... If there *is* a "Bechstein", it may be that Samick is going to distribute the Zimmermans under the Bechstein name. Or it may be that Samick had or has plans to trash the name Bechstein by putting "Bechstein" on a Korean piano. If that's the case, I've been lied to (wouldn't be the first time), or Samick is doing things without telling Bechstein (that wouldn't be a first for a Korean company either....). At any rate, I do know that all German built pianos will continue to say C. Bechstein, and should you run across a "Bechstein", don't buy one.

I do hope you're wrong though.....

Hey, Larry, "welcome home"!

[Confusion city! ]

That's where we started out to begin with!!

norbert :rolleyes:

I know......

I'm getting to the bottom of this though. I've emailed Leo. I'll tell you what he has to say the minute I hear back from him.

Larry,

Sorry mate - you have some incorrect info. There is a new line of pianos only labeled "Bechstein", and as I wrote earlier, I have one on my showroom floor. The information I quoted in an earlier post came directly from the brand new brochures released at NAMM. The "Bechstein" line are fine pianos that continue to be made in Germany.

I believe you are correct, however, about the knowledge sharing underway between the various brands within the Samick umbrella. It is my understanding that the expertise of the German craftsmen is being used to improve the pianos made in other locations.

Cheers,

Great thread.

Once again the visiblity afforded by Pianoworld chips away at the BS and inches us towards the truth.

All the background stuff I wrote I know to be accurate. The only thing I was wrong on was about the use of the name "Bechstein" again. I was assured they had learned their lesson the first time, but apparently not.

Dear Mrs. and Mr. Mulkey,

Please excuse the delayed reply due to my absence from the office, this time it was absence without the computer, therefore I can only reply today.

I have read the piano world and understand your concern caused by some of the information discussed therein, some of the remarks are obviously not made by friends, however, this is also part of life and competition.

As you have seen in Seifhennersdorf, I believe, we have built in 2002 / 2003 some new production areas in excess of 2100 square meters, an area for the best wood working. All technical aspects are in accordance to the newest regulations for ecology and safety, these are regularly inspected by an independent board serving the workers safety union and the ecology departments.

Clearly, we have invested in order to manufacture high quality pianos, and an increased number of them.

As you may be aware, this part of Germany enjoys a long tradition in piano making and the costs of living are low therefore also the labor costs are very attractive.
We have purchased this plant in Seifhennersdorf with 100 staff members on April 1st, 1992, since then we have invested financially in excess of 20 million dollars in both personnel training and facilities, and have a staff today of about 200 people in the factory.

Since September 1992 we have been making here the new generation of ZIMMERMANN pianos based on C.BECHSTEIN engineering, we have also made the W.HOFFMANN - Trend pianos here for markets which historically had problems with the ZIMMERMANN name just as was the case in USA.

Since 1993 we introduced in Seifhennersdorf stepwise the making of the C.BECHSTEIN vertical pianos, which are since a number of years now all made here from a to z and which enjoy great recognition. Since 1995 we began with production of C.BECHSTEIN grand pianos in Seifhennersdorf, in the mean time we have completely transferred the grand piano production to Seifhennersdorf. In Berlin we are doing final work on the concert and bigger model grands, particularly to show retail customers how such work is in fact done and what detail is involved.

Since 1986, when Mr. Karl Schulze purchased C.BECHSTEIN from BALDWIN Piano & Organ Co., he immediately began looking for additional piano lines in order to serve not only the high end but also the mid price range. In many ways we can see a parallel with the automobile industry, where major, top of the line brands spread their offer in a broad price range, which in turn ascertains activity in the market on a number of levels.

In the USA we have in the last few years sold W.HOFFMANN pianos - made in cooperation with partners in Poland and Check Republic - as a price alternative to C.BECHSTEIN pianos. As of 2003 we introduced the BECHSTEIN 190, a piano completely engineered by C.BECHSTEIN, yet at a lower price, which was possible due to very efficient technology and subcontracting of certain parts and aspect of the making. At the NAMM show in January 2004 we introduced the BECHSTEIN 160, again a piano engineered by C.BECHSTEIN in every detail and made in our plant in acc.to above described system of the 190.

As you know, I am a piano maker and therefore have to look at a number of issues, those which determine quality and those which determine cost. In Germany, we and all of our colleagues in this business are buying parts or components in accordance to specifications made for each brand and model, we are all in general makers of small quantities of pianos. Most of the suppliers are small and struggling due to small numbers of pianos made in Europe. For each piano line we make, be it the C.BECHSTEIN the BECHSTEIN or the ZIMMERMANN, we have specific quality criteria, which in each case is influenced by C.BECHSTEIN piano making tradition and standards, which on the other hand has to be realized for a set price range.

In December 2002 SAMICK Korea purchased 60 % shares of C.BECHSTEIN Pianofortefabrik AG, a step reached with the goal for C.BECHSTEIN to have a partner in Asia, a partner who can indeed open up the Asian markets for C.BECHSTEIN, a partner who furthermore enjoys a broad net of dealerships in the USA through its SMC distributorship. For SAMICK Company, which as of summer 2002 went onto new ownership, it was essential to have a partner with image and know how. Since 2003 C.BECHSTEIN has taken over responsibility for training the SAMCIK technicians and Engineers and for re-structuring the SAMICK product lines, both in Korea and Indonesia, thereby making the SAMICK products competitive at higher quality standards. C.BECHSTEIN is now re-introducing SAMICK pianos on the German and Benelux markets.

Since we are convinced of the magnitude of the Asian markets, we are going to develop numerous activities and strategies to gain market shares there.

We will encounter the market's needs on a number of levels to serve the piano buying public at the best quality - value and in accordance to its financial possibilities therein.

I trust that the above information is helpful in making the picture clearer.

Sincerely yours,
Leonardo Duricic,
Technical Chief of C.BECHSTEIN Pianofortefabrik AG / Member Board of Directors

Seifhennersdorf, Germany, March 11th 2004.

Herr Duricic,

Many thanks for clarifying the confusion surrounding the Bechstein discussion here.

Would you consider elaborating on the "subcontracting of certain parts and aspect of the making," seeing that a large interest in this discussion is to determine who, outside of C.Bechstein, are involved, and to what extent, with the making of the BECHSTEIN branded pianos.

Thank you.

Mr. Duricic, thank you for posting here.
It is nice to hear directly from the makers.

Very fascinating post.
I read your post carefully and was looking for a statement that all pianos with C. Bechstein or Bechstein on the fallboard are made in Germany, and not Korea.

That was the main question of this thread.
It would be nice to hear this from the manufacturer.

We have adjusted to seeing various American and European sounding names on pianos built in Asia.
The suggestion that "Bechstein" itself will appear on the fallboards of pianos made in Asia is what caused the flap.

Dear Mr.Duricic:

Thank you for your grace coming on line here.

We all enjoy and truly appreciates the moment when one is priviledged enough to hear directly from "the horse's mouth"...so to speak!

Believe me, Bechstein pianos have many admirers here
[as well as everywhere else,of course! ]
and nobody in the world would ever doubt for one moment its long record of excellence amongst the world's finest pianos wouldn't speak for itself!

On the other hand, the changes going on in the industry today, are bewildering and sometimes even unsettling for many people accustomed to a more "orderly" or at least traditional world picture.

"Made in Germany" has always carried the assurance of certainly being of at least above average quality, and it is a label that my and your forefathers have earned over a very long period of time.

But the world is changing.

In addition, piano customers for many years now, have been virtually bombarded with such jargon as "this piano is built to our specification" etc, while - at the same time - everybody is somehow left wondering what exactly is meant by that.

Including, where such piano is actually coming from these days.

There have been many pianos "designed by German geniuses" before,predominantly coming from Korea,and in this case, your partner company Samick has a long record of using lofty logos such as "designed by Klaus Fenner" or "German scale" on most of their own pianos.

While never ever being anywhere close to a 'real' German piano themselves.

But perhaps things are changing today,such as training the work forces on a much larger scale than before, and the much closer ties between the manufacturing departments of companies than has been possible perhaps in the past.

Which is the significant change we all would appreciate to learn about.

Are you also willing to confirm or deny for us here at this time categorically if any Bechstein pianos are actually already being made or planned to be made entirely in Korea at this time?

Thank you very much,

Norbert Marten

Excuse me, if Samick Bought into Young Chang and closed the Samick factory, who is Beckstein helping? Are they being invited to teach the Y.C people? I would find that hard to believe.

Excuse me, if Samick Bought into Young Chang and closed the Samick factory, who is Beckstein helping? Are they being invited to teach the Y.C people? I would find that hard to believe.

Bump.
Now that we have Bechstein's ear. . .

Are pianos without the "C" on the fallboard to be made in Korea in the future?