I had played the Avantgrand N2 and N3 last year but they were out of my price range. If only I had a crystal ball - I tried the N1 today and fell in love with it. And it kills me because it costs about the same I paid for my W. Hoffmann T122 last year...

The dealer was honest with me and said I would lose a lot of money trading in my acoustic. So the practical solution for me would be to just buy a digital for practice, which was my original idea (although I'm not sure I have the space for that), or trying to sell my acoustic myself.

I love my piano, but the upright action has its limitations. When I played the N1 I just felt so comfortable with it. I know it doesn't make much sense to ask other people this question, since it's a decision that would vary from person to person. I just wanted to hear opinions from other people who own an acoustic plus a digital for practice, and others who got rid of their acoustic to buy an Avantgrand.

Another question to N1 owners, or others who tried all three AG's: the keytops feel a little "sticky" compared to the N2/N3. I know they are made of a different material (not the "ivory" kind). Did you notice a big difference between the two kinds? I wonder if I would get used to it after a while.

I don't know if the Digital Forum is the right one for this question, but I usually see more posts about the Avantgrand here than on the Piano Forum.

Thanks!

I just wanted to hear opinions from other people who own an acoustic plus a digital for practice, and others who got rid of their acoustic to buy an Avantgrand.

I sold my C3 about 13 years ago and bought the GrandTouch. I traded in my GranTouch last year for the N3. I haven't played either the N1 or N2.

If I were you I would approach another Yamaha dealer, if that's possible, and ask what he would give you for your current piano as a trade in.

MzrtFan,

I have the N1 and I played it back to back with the N2 and N3 and I didn't notice a huge difference in the keytops. Could just be me. I an with you on the N1. Honestly, I see no reason to pay a premium for the N2...though a different story on the beautiful N3. I agree with Dave. Approach another Yamaha dealer and ask then what they'd give on trade in. Let us know what happens!

Dave and Zachary,

Thank you for your response. From what I read on your other posts about your AG's, I believe you are both very happy with your pianos and have no regrets, am I correct? I have the feeling I will be very satisfied with the N1, and the only time I'll miss my acoustic will be when the power is out (actually, there's a chance of that happening tomorrow because of the hurricane...)

I will try your suggestion, although I'll probably have to search out of state since it seems this is the only dealer in my area (there are two stores but they belong to the same company). It might not be worth it to buy from an out-of-state dealer because of the delivery cost. I'll check and see what they say...

Thanks!

Yeah MzrtFan, I love my N1. It seems the AvantGrand doesn't get much love over on the Acoustic Piano forums, but when 2 professors at Julliard and a professor here at Vanderbilt's Blair Conservatory of Music bought Avantgrands to teach and give lessons on, they must be doing something right. Besides, it's a personal thing anyway. I need the action of an acoustic, the ability to silent practice because of neighbors, the foot print of an upright, and the price of an inexpensive baby grand...what else is there other than the N1!?!? I'd rather play my N1 than the G3 I play on Saturdays at one of my gigs any day. I'd recommend the AvantGrands to pretty much anyone.

If you want to buy an N1 ...

1. Find out if the dealer will take your acoustic piano in trade.
If he will ...

2. Decide how much you must get for your trade-in.
3. Decide how much you will pay for the N1.

Take the difference between those two figures. Make your offer in that amount.

(If you're doing a buy and trade, I differ with the notion of finding out how much the dealer will "give" you for your trade. It doesn't matter. All that matters is the difference between the N1 buy-price and the old-piano trade. Either one of those figures, alone, has no use. Dealers can juice you with a favorable number on one, and take it back with an unfavorable number on the other.)

MzrtFan -

I had a small Yamaha grand (a GC1) and replaced that with the AG N3. The acoustic had been a bad experience for me due to my room space - not really the piano's fault. But I would say the bass in uprights and small grands leaves a lot to be desired - you don't really get a note as such, just a tuneless thud in the lowest notes. That really got on my nerves. Having played exclusively digitals until the GC1 came along I was used to the compelling bass (of almost all digitals) that is the inevitable consequence of sampling a 9 foot piano.

Interestingly enough, I found the GC1 action clunky and unrefined compared to the AG (the GC1 is a cheaper Yamaha grand but apparently has the innards - including action - of the C series with the less elaborate casing of the cheaper G series).

When I went to try out the AG there were numerous nice acoustics in the shop including a couple of new Bechsteins - what cheap looking, bright white plastic they use on their keys - looks like the kind of plastic you'd make a toy from. Yamaha's plastic is much classier looking, slightly cream in colour with what feels like a more dense texture - this is true of all their pianos (including digitals) in my experience, regardless of whether it is a fancy ivory simulation.

The N3 has Ivorite, which to my eyes is difficult to tell from the other Yamaha plastics. I think this key surface fetish that some manufacturers (and piano owners) have is silly. If Bechstein uses any normal old plastic then it must be ok, so although the N1 uses Yamaha's normal plastic resin, I wouldn't let that have any influence at all over any decisions you make. For instance, the fake ivory Roland uses is way over-the-top in terms of the surface finish - it's ridiculous in my opinion. No wonder they have problems with it. If I didn't know and you asked me what surface the N3 has on its keys I would say ordinary plastic - there is no special look or finish on it (in my opinion anyway).

Anyway, to your problem - I would have the N1 in a heartbeat to be honest. I don't much care for upright piano actions and the low bass is just a thud as I've described. The N1 will give you all the usual (and often quoted) advantages of a digital (volume control, no tuning etc) with a real grand action and, to my eyes, a very classy appearance.

It's just down to the money I suppose - only you can make that decision.

Finally, I would guess that the vast, overwhelming majority of acoustic piano aficionados who choose to criticise the AG have never played one.

Good luck and let us know what you do and how it works out.

Steve

This may have some information that is of interest to you.

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...tml#Post1741957

I have not played an N1. I like the N2 and N3, but I'm also a big fan of the Roland SuperNatural sound and PHA III action.

I am not sure what is "Ivorite" about the N2 keys. They look like plastic (think Steinway) to me and are certainly adequate to the task (again, think Steinway). They do not look like the simulated ivory grain keytops that are, or at least used to be, on the Yamaha C7 (and certain other C) pianos and are presently on the Rolands.

EssBrace and kippesc,

Thank you for sharing your experience. About the keytops, I think I'm just used to the way my fingers slide easily back and forth on my piano, and whenever I play on this kind of keytop from Yamaha I feel some resistance. But I would never pay the difference just for the keytops, and I don't think the extra vibrations the N2 offers justify the price difference either.

It is definitely down to the money - I love the piano and all it offers, and I've decided I can definitely live without an acoustic if I have an Avantgrand. I definitely agree that people who criticize it have never played it - or they are just stuck in the past and can't see the potential these pianos offer. I was a little skeptical myself, but when I played the AG's I was completely sold.

I had no experience with digital pianos until I started looking for one last year, and was very impressed by what they can do. But even the Roland PHA III action doesn't compare to the AG's. I think the Avantgrands are in a completely different league.

I'm almost in the same situation as you. Last year I bought an acoustic piano (Seiler 116 Focus) and 3 months ago a Yamaha CP50. On the economic point of view it would have been wiser to buy a N1 (I too had tried the N2 last year but it was a bit pricey). I do not really know what to do (selling all my gears and lose some money or stay there, my wife would prefer that ...)

Regards

I wish they would make an N0:

- 100 lbs or less & portable (perhaps a slab form factor),
- Internal amps / speakers capable of real piano volume levels & tone,
- Keys as good as they can get without real hammers & other finicky / heavy mess,
- No looping or stretching.

There is probably zero (!) chance of the lowest end of a product line having the best sound generator, even if it is released last (can't have internal competition) so we'll probably be waiting for all of the AGs to be completely supplanted by something new. Or for Roland or Kawai (or less likely Korg) to release a similar product first. My best guess remains NAMM 2020.

For those here who are concerned about cost, remember, you can't take it with you.

The smart idea is to die broke ... and I'm slowly working my way towards that end.

Mzrtfan and jef citron, I think you both should see what you can get out of either trading in and/or selling your instruments. You'll both be agonizing over the N1 if you don't...

In regards to the Roland SN and PHA III, the sound is really good, better than the AG, esp through headphones, but, the action doesn't come near the AG. If you're both considering getting rid of acoustics, the PHA III, as nice as it is inside a digital, doesn't compare even to an acoustic upright, and certainly not to the C series action inside the N1.

Just don't tell my parents or anyone else who has me in their will that

I'm so glad you sent this post! I tried the AG N3 yesterday, after trying some Yamaha 370s, and OMG, no comparison. The dealer in Dallas said he would not have N1s for several more months, and I can't afford the N3 for sure, and the N2 would be a be financial reach for me.

Aside from the tactile feel of the keys, how is the N1 in the absence of the TRS system (the highly Yamaha-touted Tacile Response System) available on the N2 and N3? And finally, would you mind revealing the price range of the N1? The dealer said he didn't know how much cheaper it would be than the N2 and N3. N3 in Dallas is $15K, and N2 is $10K, but they are said to have same technology. Is it the cabinet on N3 that is worth $5K more?!!! If so, that seems incredibly, unless it's just the "snob appeal" of the grand.

Very interested in these. Thank you so much!

Laurie

Laurie, I played both the N2 and N3, both with the TRS, and honestly the difference is negligible and in the case of the N2, the difference in the cabinet and speaker system aren't worth the $3000 premium the N2 would've cost me over my N1.

The N3 had a baby grand cabinet, with a more elaborate speaker system and pedal system. I think in the long run, the N1 is the better value than the N2 since it has all the advantages of the Avantgrand Series at a much lower cost.

As far as price I paid was $8,000 for my N1. That same dealer quoted me $11,000 for the N2.

One tip for those trying out the AvantGrand's, if you're playing through the built in sound system, set the volume at roughly the same level you would expect to hear from a grand piano.

It's been my experience that my N3 sounds less lifelike through the speakers at softer volume levels; through headphones all volume level sound natural.

I mention this because at lower speaker levels the bass response drops off a bit. I do most of my practicing with headphones so this is not an issue.

Interesting Dave that you feel the N3 sounds better through headphones, or do you feel it sounds better through headphones only when volume of speakers is below that of an acoustic? I much prefer the sound of my N1 through its speakers than through headphones. I think the AGs sound no better than an older CLP/CVP series digital piano, and in fact, fairly lifeless through headphones. However, it sounds quite good to me through its speakers...much more acoustic sounding.

I went back to correct though to through.

For my money it sounds better through headphones but then just about everything sounds better through headphones.

It sounds more like a real grand at real grand piano levels, but that statement does not apply to headphones - through headphones it sounds excellent at any level.

The only real time I play through the speaker system is for guests.

As long as it sounds decent to me, whether through speakers or headphones, I'm happy since it's really just the practicing on a grand piano action that I'm after.

Yeah that makes total sense, and is exactly what I was after in choosing the N1. If it was sound I was after, I'd have just stuck to my NP88 since, to my ears, through headphones and studio monitors, it sounds better than any other DP out there.

I'm glad you started this thread. I have been shopping quite a while for a good used upright but have difficulty with humidity control in my house. For that reason, and because of space issues, I am seriously considering the N1 or N2. I would rather have the grand action and I just don't see the point in paying for an acoustic piano I can't maintain properly where I live. I spoke with a dealer in Syracuse but haven't set a date to go play one yet. Keep us posted. I'll be interested to hear how things turn out.

pg

I thought it sounded great both through speakers and headphones. And the headphones they gave me were pretty beat up! When I started playing, I actually checked if the headphones were really connected - the sound was so realistic that I thought everyone could hear me play.

I am going back to the store tomorrow to play the N1 some more and make sure this is really what I want to do. I broke the news to my husband about changing pianos again (3rd time in 5 years!), and he said as long as it doesn't cost us an arm and a leg... I really want to get it right this time... I think I will prefer having the grand action and the benefit of practicing silently to having a real acoustic piano with an upright action. I will never be able to have a grand because of space and noise issues, so the AG is my only option - and that's not a bad option at all!

Mzrtfan, you won't regret it. I love my N1 and the benefits of having 90% of the advantages of both acoustics and digitals in one beautiful cabinet makes the up front cost totally with it for me. Let us know how you get along.

If you take the cost difference between the two instruments, and divide by the number of years that you are likely to have the N1, well then, it's not really all that bad. Changing your mind costs, every time, but that cost can be worth it to 'get it right'!

... don't forget the savings of not having your piano tuned. I still get a kick of a freshly tuned piano each and every day.

Sorry to ask a question in response to your question, but it's a similar topic. The sole Yamaha dealer where I live (Dallas) does not have any N1s yet and said it would be "a while" before he got them. He also could not quote me even a "street price" for the N1.

Since you've played the N2 and N3, did you experience a discernible difference btwn the N1 and 2? Does the TRS feature on the 2 and 3 really make a difference? Also would you be willing to share the price quote you got for the N1?

Like you, I can't afford the N3, for sure, and N2 will depend on what I can get for my acoustic Yamaha WX3. I can't practice on the acoustic where I live now, so this will be my only piano. Would so appreciate your insights and thank you.

Laurie

Laurie I'll do my best to answer your questions. The Yamaha dealer where I bought my N1 also had an N2 and N3 in stock, next to the N1. The N3 was sold so I didn't spend much time on it, but they let me play it to compare to the N1/N2. The TRS is definitely noticeable but not enough, and it doesn't make the experience that much different from the vibration you get from the internal sound system. With headphones is where the TRS would be most noticeable I would guess. The vibration from the internal speakers produces a pretty authentic feel in itself. One of the most impressive attributes to the N1 (and N2/N3) is the huge low end...thanks to sampling the CFIII. The TRS and better sound wasn't enough to sway me away from the N1. The N1 street price will vary place to place, but should be around $7500-$8500 depending on the dealer. The dealer here sold me the N1 for $7,999. Considering the other acoustic options in the N1 price range (lower end baby to petite grands and medium grade uprights, not to mention no digital pianos come close) the N1 is in a league of its own. Hope this helps.

Excellent. Thank you. I'm sorry I asked twice. I'm new to this Forum and site and didn't realize the original posts were both from you.

Laurie,

I just came back from the dealer after spending an hour and a half comparing the N1 and N2. It was really hard to decide which one I like best. The N1 sounds more realistic - Yamaha did an excellent job by positioning the speakers on the N1 the way they did. It sounds awesome! However, the feel of the N2 is more realistic because of the better keytops and TRS system. Together, they really make the experience feel realistic.

About the price, $7,990 for the N1 and $10,990 for the N2.

What really sucks about the N2, in my opinion, is that stupid lid that directs sound right into your face and makes my ears ring when certain notes are played loudly. And you can't even lift the lid all the way up.

I couldn't get anywhere with the dealer because he wasn't interested in my trade-in. He said that unfortunately the W. Hoffmann piano is not a recognizable name and most of his customers have never heard of it, which would make it really hard to sell. Therefore, I would probably get less than 50% what I paid for it last year as a trade-in. I offered my piano plus $4,000 for the N2 but he said that's not enough.

So now I'm trying to decide if i'll try to go through the hassle of a private sale and see what I can get for my piano. I'm seriously considering just going to the Kawai dealer and getting a CN-23 for practice. Or I'll just hold on to my piano in the hopes that in a year or two Kawai will come out with something like the AG's and I can get full trade-in value for my Hoffmann (the store I bought it from is the Kawai dealer in my area).

The N2 can be shrill or piercing in the treble when the lid is propped open and the volume is at a realistic level (volume control at 2 pm or higher, I'd say). The N3 does not have this issue, and that is one reason I think it is worth the upcharge. I haven't played the N1, but the pictures make it look like it may not have the shrillness problem.