Hi!

I hope to hear opinion and comments on Wilh. Steinberg upright piano for AC123 and IQ24 model as I am considering them. The more comments and opinions will be better. Thanks!

Wilh. Steinberg pianos are more prominent in Singapore than in the US at this time.

The IQ series has been in our market for quite a while. This is the traditional series built in fairly small quantities in Germany. The pianos are known to be well-made and have lots of power (can be quite loud in a home setting), but the tone is not that interesting in my opinion. Action response is very good though.

The AC series is made by Parsons Music at their factory in Xichang, China. Parsons bought the Wilh Steinberg company recently. I don't know if any dealers in the US have picked up that line. I've never seen one. Pasons has made a lot of pianos, including most Brodmann models and a few models for Kawai.

You'd probably pick up a little more information from reading the company profiles and price listings in Pianobuyer (link to the left).

OK ...

Actually the Steinberg AC has it's case and plate produced in China.

From there...

The Sound board is Bavarian Spruce, keys are Kluga, Bass strings by Heller and action by Renner and all assembled in Germany. 80% or more of the expense is German and wears the "Made in Germany" stamp.

The "P" series Steinberg is all Chinese and NOT imported into the US and there are no plans to.

Parsons does not own the Steinberg company, but does own a small portion as an investment.

Brian Gatchel, Atlantic Music, Melbourne FL is the Importer of Steinberg as well as Steingraeber and he would be happy to answer any questions.

Turandot, as much as I enjoy your posts, I am going to ask that you post your industry affiliation. Your authoritative prose regarding the "facts" I think warrants it. From time to time your facts are incorrect. Such an authoritative response presumes taking some responsibility and it is my opinion that the responsibility includes your real name and business.

While I agree somewhat with Tur's above opinion, when back in Germany I recently tried some of the Steinberg IQ and was VERY impressed.

One particular model I played ranked among the very best uprights I had ever played.

Can't wait when the first "made in Germany" AS series Brodmann pianos come out next months: if they resemble anything from what I saw over there, watch out....

As is widely known, Steinberg had recently been acquired by Parsons.

The first acquisition by a Chinese maker....

Norbert

Norbert, Steinberg has not been acquired by Parsons.

Check your facts.

Check them and present them.

The response to this will be better than Sunday Football. I can't wait. Sorry but I like Turandot's post too, and just be careful what you ask for.

I like Turandots post as well. He is an excellent writer and clearly well educated. We are fortunate to have him here.

But facts are facts after all.

Let's all be responsible for them.

I certainly hope it does not become "Sunday Football"

Considering the respect deserved, that would be unfortunate and only serve as a distraction.

I do look forward to turandot's response.

I don't think it will. I am just kidding, Turandot has stated many times not belonging to the industry. I would be a little nervous too....

Don't include me in your nervousness ...

Don't turn the subject on me either.

It doesn't look like you have anything substantive to contribute.

It took you 3 post replies to figure that out. You're a Genius!!! Wow!!!

We went down this road a couple of days ago, the only difference being that at least at that time, you had the courtesy to make your request through a PM.

You asked me in that PM to identify my industry affiliation in a tag and post in my name here. I cannot do the first. I have no industry affiliation and have never had one. Any tag would be a complete fabrication and a lie.

The second I won't do for reasons I explained to you in my lengthy response (a response to which I received no reply).

Here is what I told you in that response.

I guess the reason you wrote me was to suggest that maybe I was the pot calling the kettle black. That's not the case. I have no background in piano industry things, not even from the remotest tangent. My only connection to music is performance and composition.

I went on to supply personal information to ease your mind.
I closed with.......

All of this is the honest truth, but if you choose not to believe it, there is nothing I can do about it. I quit wasting time years ago trying to control what I have no control over. All that I can do is try to be fair and balanced in my opinions. I spent the time replying to you because my sense in reading your posts on PW is that you have the same philosophy of being fair and balanced.

My answer hasn't changed in the past two days even though your approach to asking has. There's nothing I can do about it. It's your problem, not mine.

BTW, my information about Parsons came from someone inside the company in Xichang. Perhaps the arrangement falls short of outright ownership. Piano companies often mask transactions by blending assets. I'll try to check it out. My point was to make sure the OP was aware of the difference between the genuine item and the sub-line.

I have sold and continue selling IQ W. Steinberg. They are well made pianos. In terms of tonal quality they have a consistent tone across the dynamic range, a lot of sustain and volume as well.

You can play some fantastic Debussy or Mozart if you have the right technique and understanding of control. Steinberg’s are the kind of instruments that requires for the player to understand how to utilize its virtues. The action is well balanced therefore there is a lot of possibilities with this type of tone.

Sorry if I sound a bit elitist; these pianos can sound wonderful in the hands of a refined player or really messy in the hands of a chopper.

On a side note: I personally like members such as Turandot.
Members such as him are needed for a balanced forum. Otherwise we'll have the dominant members that hardly ever get disputed and their cheerleaders.
Regardless if he is or isn't in the trade; he has a legitimate interest in contributing and pianos in general.
An anonymous poster has no restrictions in terms of what he/she can say; however I don't think Turandot takes advantage of that position.

turandot, I appreciate your response.

Yes, My first choice was to say something through a PM.

My second choice is to do so here. I think it is fair to everyone and here, it promotes the discussion to a more complete conclusion. I will continue to have my say here.

It will remain my opinion, that members who speak so authoritatively with what is clearly the kind of industry knowledge that the general public does not and can not have, state their names and affiliations and therefore take FULL responsibility for their statements.

I don't always have my facts correct. I DO very carefully check them before I post here. I hope that my record here speaks to that and I invite anyone to contact me if they feel otherwise.

Speaking of which, I can be contacted directly. My name is out there publicly and everything I say here follows me. I do not post by a pseudonym free from reproach after I "logout"

I notified the moderators as I made my original post on this thread and I will continue to as seems fit. I trust the moderators here to make the evaluative judgements as to posted credentials and respect their decisions.

turandot, I do enjoy reading your posts and I trust you will continue to provide me with good reading.

Larry,

I'm not sure what your point is here...whether you think present rules are unfair or that I have somehow violated some rule. Whatever is really on your mind, you should of course do what you think is right, but continuing to insist that I am or was in the piano industry is harassment at this point.

I wrote the OP my opinion of the IQ verticals. I made it very clear that the comments about tone and loudness were my opinions. I know from his original thread that the OP is choosing a piano for a beginning child and is not a player himself. My instincts tell me that an IQ and a small child are probably not an ideal pairing. I think Kurtmen's point was pretty much the same.

I wrote that I had never even seen the Chinese models and that I had no idea if anyone was selling them in the US. It seems that you have far more knowledge of these subline than I do. Why don't you help out the OP and comment on the tone, touch, and build quality based on your experience?

turandot,

If you read my posts I am not insisting you are in the piano industry. Your "affiliation" is what ever it is. It should be stated. If it is none then so be it. By your posts though, you clearly have information very few others have.

Based on your statements, information and recommendations to people, It is my opinion that you should be identifying yourself more clearly. Be in a better position to accept responsibility. When our real names are public, I think it tempers our statements. I understand you disagree. As I have said, I will let the moderators have any final say.

And as the internet goes, it is hard to measure a posters affect. Know that I enjoy your posts. They are informative and witty. Always good reading.

I had went to the dealer for Sauter and he also told me that it is important to have a good piano in the start so that the child will learn correctly. The Sauter model that I had seen is M2 which is over my budget. The dealer is very patient to educate me how to choose a good piano and I was there listening to him for 3 hours. I learn a lot from him.

I do like way Sauter made the piano. It is so custom made and personalize. Even the tone can be custom made like mellow or bright or etc. It is fantastic! Too bad that it is over my budget. It is my ideal piano!

Initial, I was thinking of getting the AC123 but I find that the difference of $3000 plus, I could get the IQ24. The dealer for Wilh. Steinberg told me that the case for AC123 is made in China but the rest is in Germany so they can put the 'Made in Germany' on the piano.

Is it necessary for me to get a good piano for my child, beginner, of 6 yrs old? I was torn between AC123 and IQ24. I still want to see Petrof and Wolfmann H. Hope to hear more advice! Thanks!

Problem is that many people often talk about pianos they don't know or have never played.

While Steinbergs had never been on top of my 'German ladder', the last ones I played in Southern Germany were indeed outstanding.

Larry, if and how much ownership has changed with Steinberg recently I can't tell for sure. Perhaps talk to Frederick Steffes, the [previous..] owner.

I have.

Norbert

You can justify that difference of 3000+ by seeing for yourself if the IQ124 playes $3000 worth better than the AC123.

I think it is good that a beginner pianist starts on a good piano. It dies not need to be world class, but it does need to have a comfortable action, good sound to your ear, and be on good working order. But sure, having a very good piano is a big plus, and you can wait longer before upgrading, if your child chooses to continue with his piano studies.

But before you buy, as you said, do look at some other pianos before making your final choosing.

Good luck!

Some years ago, I played 3 Steinberg verticals (all the same model)at a piano store south of Boston. They were the worst sounding pianos I have ever played. The tone was so harsh and percussive that it sounded like the hammers were as hard as rocks. I have since heard people say nice things about Steinbergs, so I don't know what to think of my experience. I played a number of pianos in that particular store, so it wasn't just acoustics or my mood--those Steinbergs sounded like no other piano I'd every heard or played.

I never had that experience, but I did play one particular showroom IQ that took great effort to control with a tone that was very forward and direct. Maybe Kurtmen could comment on the sort of prep that the IQ's need after they are uncrated.

Raychek,

All of the retailers of these European brands can make a very good case for build quality, and it's a good sign about the Steinberg dealer that he explained a bit about the difference between the two series. I'm assuming that he did that without you having to drag it out of him.

The question is really just as it was on your other thread. Do you want to spend to the level of your personal "ideal" piano or is the goal to provide a piano that your child that will not hamper her in any way in her development?

The best piano for a child beginner is probably not the one that is difficult to control even if its build quality exceeds most others.

Have you gotten any help on the Adult Beginner in Singapore thread?

If that formula would be applied in today's market across the board, there would be very few pianos sold....

Norbert

To be more specific the IQ28 requires more attention than the IQ24.
Usually with the IQ28 the hammers require to be voice, down, the action let-off closer and definitely a really solid tuning. The IQ 24 specially the Amadeus, they don't require as much work besides tuning and a touch-up regulation.



If the pianos were not in tune and prepped; I don't doubt your experience. On the other hand there are many good or average piano players who can't figure out a piano. These are great pianos when they are properly prepped and play. If you are a chopper (not trying to be offensive) but if you can't play with finesse these pianos won't work for you.

Thanks Kurtmen,

Now...what's the difference between a chopper, a banger, and hack?

Not to put you on the spot, but you do sell both of the pianos in this hypothehtical.

A non-playing parent comes into your shop and wants to buy a piano for his six-year-old child who is just starting lessons. He wants his child to have every learning advantage that the chosen piano can provide to the child, but he does not have unlimited funds.

Would you see any particular advantage for his child beginner in an IQ 24 that a Kawai K-5 would not offer? Would you see any particular advantage to his child beginner that a Kawai K-5 would have over the IQ?

Again, I'm not trying to put you on the spot. I'm coming from the angle of different horses for different courses.

After reading this thread, I wouldn't be surprised to hear that 'rayquek' bought a trombone.

Oh, I can definitely figure out a piano, to use your words. Believe me, these pianos sounded just horrible. Now, it may well be that with some serious deep voicing of the hammers, they would have sounded fine. Because I have no other experience with this brand, I can't really comment.

I am a non-playing parent who wants to buy a piano for my six-year-old child who is just starting lessons. I want my child to have every learning advantage that the chosen piano can provide to the child, but I do not have unlimited funds.

It is the questions that turandot had helped me to ask. Would I see any particular advantage for my child, beginner, in an IQ 24 or better piano then that a Kawai K-5 would not offer? Any advantages of a AC123 then IQ24.

I hope to find or any recommendation of piano that can help my child to have every learning advantage and hope that it could last her till Diploma level in piano. I don't intend to change piano once I bought it till she learn at Diploma level.

What makes you think that? I'm confused

I meant, more like, similar pianos from same area (Asia, Europe, US, etc...) since there is little point comparing quite good entry level pianos to the top grade performance pianos. If it was like THAT (the latter example,I mean) then there would be very few pianos sold indeed...

I believe a K5 would be more than adequate for many, many years. If you kid starts to turn into Horowitz some time in the future, you can upgrade then.

Roy, The Steinberg pianos you played I happen to know do not receive any prep in that store (nameless of course) and they are no longer a Steinberg dealer.

I had went to see a few pianos today and below is what i shortlisted after seeing all the pianos from the first day till now.

Below are pianos within my budget and I just based on the specs and others but not the sound as I still can't differentiate it.
1) Wilh. Steinberg(AC123) S$13,000
Pro: Made in Germany, affordable
Con: 3 yrs warranty only.

2) W.Hoffman(T128) S$13,000
Pro: 5 yrs warranty, affordable, parts from Germany, dealer is a big company, quite tall piano
Con: Not well known from what I feel(not sure)

3) Petrof(P125) S$12,000
Pro: No parts from China, 10 yrs warranty, the dealer seems big company, saw the European Certificate and the person who serves me seems to be the boss and he is quite sincere and true to me. He can knows how to tune and service the piano.

From the three pianos, my first choice is W. Hoffman because it is under the same umbrella of C. Bechstein. From the website, it explains that they design and check by Master Technician from C.Bechstein. This gives me the confidence of the quality.

My second choice is Petrof because I quite like the sound as the treble is thin but I am not confident of my listening. I like it because all parts are from the same company so it has better control and no parts from China. Another thing that attracts me is the 10 yrs full warranty.

What would be the opinions and comments from my choice?

If I could stretch my budget then I would target Seiler 126 impulse. They give the best price is S$17,500. What is your opinion and comments for the price to buy it for my child, a beginner. Is it worth?

Hi,

I think there probably needs to be a middle ground somewhere. You are looking at some expensive pianos and only have the hope that your child will like playing and continue taking lessons if I am reading this correctly. You could be making a mistake buying one this price to start lessons. Just my opinion but many pianos become costly pieces of furniture due to lack of interest from the player.

I will try to contribute, the price on the Hoffman T-128 is a little high if that is the street price. I was quoted one about a month ago for a little over $10,000. For $13,000 I can almost get a Bechstein A3, for about maybe $900.00 more. Hope I have contributed.

Sounds like you've pretty much eliminated the Steinberg from your list. Although I cannot comment on Steinberg uprights, I can say that the IQ77 grand I bought in 2003 (or 2004??? -- can't remember) has been a wonderful piano. It's very well built, has great action, and has a rich tone. My regular tech says it's a real pleasure to tune. Before the Parsons acquisition/purchase, I found the Steinberg company in general -- and specifically Frederik Steffes -- great to work with. I have no idea what the situation is now, except there seems to be more than one series of Steinberg pianos, named on the basis of place of manufacture and finishing.

The IQ series was the only series offered when I bought my piano, and I suspect that all of the pianos in that series were manufactured at the same level of quality. I don't know about the new series. I recall, however, that when I was shopping, I was told by several people to consider other makes since Steinberg had no track record in this country. One dealer even said that the pianos were not very well made and said that the finish would be a problem, as would other components. I was glad I trusted my instincts and the opinions of other less-alarmist people.

Buy what seems to be the best fit for your situation. If you do choose the Steinberg, I'd recommend going with the IQ series. Good luck!

Kevin

We need a whole new thread to answer this question. But briefly the three types have something in common: In the case of the skilled banger, chopper... they cannot differentiate between art and circus act. The unskilled banger is just plain insensitive.



In reality anybody can learn on any piano as long as the instrument is completely functional. Very often (piano uneducated parents)make a decision based on whatever reasons, some get lucky ans some don't.
On the other hand my job is to provide guidance to my customers in order to help them find a piano that suits their needs and sometimes at the expense of not making as much profit as desire. However this is just a personal philosophy otherwise I'll be in a more profitable business than the piano-industry.

In the case of the K5 versus the IQ24 within the particular situation you proposed; I think the K5 will be my choice of instrument in this case. However there are multiple reasons why a parent will rather have the IQ24.

I'm not going to get into the deep technical reasons of why; but as the high-end piano manufacturers make an effort to refine or create a signature sound, the instruments become more peculiar.
This is a partial reason of the success of Kawai, Yamaha and even Steinway the three brands in a way are very simple comfortable instruments to play on.




This is fact once everything gets more refine and specific. Cowboys made horses run on dirt, grass, sand and rocks but rarely a thoroughbred runs well on turf and dirt; regardless if it is secretariat, cigar, bigbrown or mindthatbird.
Same as the bangers versus the artist; Laffit Pincay is not the same as your circus rider

Here is my advice:

In cases of 2 competing pianos:

1] play each piano several times and see which one apppeals to you musically speaking.

2]check the "SPECS" of the pianos to see if they are comparable. Here are the specs for the IQ series Steinberg,

http://www.wilh-steinberg.com/eng/wst-uprightsleve.html

The pianos made 100% in Germany feature Renner mecanic, Renner hammers, Strunz soundboards [always SOLID spruce..] Kluge keys, German strings, all top end stuff.

It's certainly nice to know what "exactly" is in the piano - without the need to have guessing around.

Now do same with the W.Hoffman or any other piano you are considering. Check their websites for relevant specs especially involving action, hammers, strings, soundboards, etc. If there is no information, ask *why*.

You may feel more comfortable with one "name brand" than another, but in the end you own a *musical instrument* not the company.

Don't forget, there may be a reason why some companies refuse to put their own name* on a product they make.

Which always makes me often wonder *why*....

Happy choosing!

Norbert

Rayquek,

OF the choices on today's menu, I'd feel very comfortable with the Petrof P125. The model has been around for quite a while and product quality has trended upward. It does not have the absolute highest build quality of authentic European pianos, but it has a very good track record and can be easily played in a home environment by a player of any level without producing unpleasant sounds at unpleasant volume levels. (It's not a power piano that must be controlled with experienced hands)

Now the Hoffman would also accommodate a home environment acoustically and has a nice tone, but the present model Hoffmanns do not have much of a track record, and the company's use of the Hoffmann name is different in different parts of the world. It's a sub line. Its purpose is to sell pianos into lower price points using the company's presitge in building premium instruments as a marketing edge.

The Steinberg AC may also be quite pleasant in a home, but I've never seen or heard one. Most of the European sub lines tend to more demure and controllable than the company's premium product. However, this is a new product with no track record at all. Its purpose is the same as the Hoffmann's -- to mix and match Asian and European parts and labor and expand the copany's market presence to lower price points. Pianos such as the Hoffmann and the Steinberg AC are not the best product that their maker offers and it's very unlikely that they ever will be.

Like most European makers, Petrof is involved in some wheeling and dealing in Asian parts and in different branding in different countries under different names. However, I believe that the integrity of the Petrof P125 is intact and that it is the same piano made in the same place to the same specs wherever it is sold. It is one of the premium vertical pianos that the Petrof company offers.

So, if it were a choice among these three, I'd be attracted to the P125 and I would consider the price more than fair in comparison to the other two. I would want to be sure that my Petrof retailer in Singapore is well-established, uses good technicians, and has a good reputation. I would probably ask him for references -- in other words to let me contact some of his customers who have bought P series verticals from him in the last few years. I would hope to speak with them about their level of satisfaction with both their piano and the retailer's service.

Now all of that opinion is based on today's menu. In general, I thik that a Yamaha U- series or a K-5 is more than adequate to take your daughter from absolute beginner to the certificate level. From everything you have written here in your threads, I think you have a predisposition to regarding authentic European instruments as inherently superior to Japanese instruments and that this feeling is driving your proposed choices. That's fine. We all have our predispositions, but I don't think you should buy the idea that an expensive European vertical or especially a seimi-European sub line vertical will take your daughter's progress further or make it faster. It won't. Spending to the level necessary to attain those instruments may satisfy your personal requirements, but it goess beyond hers.

I think Kurtman makes an enormously poignant comment regarding prep.

Finding a dealer that treats prep as "value added" vs abrasive overhead will make tremendous difference how that piano feels to play.

Better pianos such as German made cost a little more to purchase and also respond more easily and with greater depth than lesser quality pianos.

Doing business with a dealer that understands values added will also provide you better services over the long haul and, as so many point out here, often enough there is a reason to ask the dealer to respond to your questions and needs.

Purchasing a piano focusing too much on price alone can be short sighted at the least.

It is difficult to know everything about a piano before you buy it. You will have a completely different understanding and perspective after you have owned that piano for two or more years. And add to that working with the dealer during that time. And what happens after that.

turandot's comment on what you actually need is a good one. Would a Kawai at half the price be as satisfying and productive to your young student..

I almost think people should shop dealers first ... than shop the piano.

After hearing turandor's comments, I agree with what he says about the sub-line from main company which I also do have concern.

Below is my explanation of my choice

Why my first choice is W.Hoffman is because the design of it is from C. Bachstein company (well-known company) which I think it should not be too bad. This impression put W.Hoffman as my first choice. The marketing strategy works on me. What put me off is that it is a subline of the main company so I am still considering about this piano.

What attracts me for Petrof is that the dealer gives 10 yrs warranty, P125 is not a subline and the price is really attractive. The dealer gives me the confidence in Petrof on seeing the EUROPEAN EXCELLENCE seal certificate. This designation is primarily the evidence of European origin of the instrument, long lifetime, professional service and high use value. The website of Petrof gives very detail information unlike W.hoffman. This make me suspicious of the quality of W.Hoffman. Petrof is well-known but still cannot compare to C.Bachstein. So this put Petrof to second-choice but does not rule out that I would not choose Petrof in the end.

Why Wilh.Steinberg is third choice because the warranty is only 3 yrs which in Larry Fine's book should be 5 yrs and I don't have confidence on the dealer in terms of servicing the piano in future else I will put it in first choice as I like the treble tone.

Why I consider European piano and not Japanese piano is because of the sound. After going around looking for piano, I do notice that the sound of Japanese piano is hollow, not melody and the treble is not bell-like sound after my first contact on Wlih. Stainberg piano. The price of the Yamaha or Kawai is not cheap too. Without promotion, Yamaha U1 is S$10,000 plus and Kawai K5 is S$9,900. Recently, the salesperson call me to tell me that they are going to rise the price of K5 but keep the price for me if I am interested.

For about S$3000 difference in price between Japanese piano and European piano, why I don't choose European piano when European piano have better sound, melody to ear, better build and better known too! The intangible benefits worth more than $3000 price difference.

If I were to choose Seiler or higher end piano is more for my own satisfying requirement than for my child which I admit.

Now, I am waiting to find a piano teacher to help to analyze the 2 pianos which are W.Hoffman and Petrof. I will bring my child along to let her try too. This should be the final round of selection.

Thank you to all the people who had contributed to my queries which I really appreciated. turandor has been a great adviser in my process of selection of piano which I really appreciate. Thank you! Turandor.

Now, I still would like to hear more comments and opinions before I buy it. Thanks!

Which pianos are exactly being compared at this point?

C.Bechstein or W.Hoffman pianos, Steinberg IQ or AC series?
Thanks God Petrof has only one.

Try to give feedback but getting confused.

One final thing: As dealer I appreciate when suppliers are clear [honest..] about the stuff that goes into their pianos. I read Steinberg's description of their AC lines and they clearly admitted to using both Czech and Chinese made parts.

http://www.wilh-steinberg.com/de/wst-kategorien.html

Not being dealer for them, that's worth some kudos.

Norbert

Uh, Singapore dollars Ali... so at todays rates about $10,500.
Still no way would I ever pay 10K for any piano for a new student with non players in house. However that's me and if I had a choice the Petrof is the only one I've played and while it didn't thrill me, the 10 year warranty is nice to have.

One more time, unless $13000 dollars is not a lot of money to you, please reconsider spending that much for a piano for a 6 year old who is just beginning lessons.

Well, it is not that I really have a lot of money to spend that I want to buy a piano for S$13000 for my child.

Initially, I thought of buying a second hand Yamaha piano, U1 or U3 which cost around S$5000 to S$6000 but afraid the future problem of wear and tear issue so decided to go for new piano. A new Yamaha U1 cost more than S$10,000 while Kawai K5 cost S$9900. Almost decided to buy Kawai K5, I hear the German piano sound, Wilh.Steinberg AC123 which cost S$13000, which is much nicer than Kawai or Yamaha. The dynamic, tonality, depth of the bass and clarity of the treble for the German piano is worth the $3000 difference. Since then, I decided to go for European piano. The more I hear the sound from European piano, the more I like it and after that I could hear the big difference of the sound quality between the European piano and Japanese piano. It is hard for me to explain but I do appreciate the sound of European piano more than Japanese piano now. Frankly speaking, even the Chinese piano sounds better than the Japanese piano as the Chinese piano had the European technology which I heard personally before.

Don't you find there are more second hand Japanese piano than European piano? Why? If the Japanese piano is really good then why should people them sell away. This is the logic I have. I do not intend to change piano once I buy it. I am looking for long term so the difference of S$3000 will not become significant anymore.

Now, I am considering the W.Hoffmann T128 and Petrof P125. I hope to hear more comments and opinions from anyone before I buy them. Thank you!

Ray,

They are all excellent pianos. Get the one who's sound you prefer (even when played badly) because if you want your child to make it to diploma grades you will be hearing it a lot.

At that price, have you considered a grand piano? The Hailun-178 sounds just as good, has a grand piano action (which is better than most uprights), and is slightly cheaper.

I'd have to say that long warranties on pianos don't impress me. I suspect that any manufacturing defects will show up quite quickly.

Dah, Singapore Dollars. I understand. In that case, the T-128 is nice. I saw one here in DC, it is 50" high which is good.

Hi rayquek,

"Don't you find there are more second hand Japanese piano than European piano? Why? If the Japanese piano is really good then why should people them sell away. This is the logic I have."

How many European pianos have been sold there compared to Japanese pianos? If there are more Japanese pianos in the hands of the consumer of course more will make their way to the second hand market. And more are available to import to second hand market too.

I applaud your desire to get your child a good piano to start lessons. You are betting that it will be a long term commitment. Many of those second hand pianos you see are coming from families who made the same bet and it didn't work out. No questions about quality or sound, simply is it necessary to spend that amount for a beginner or wiser to do an upgrade later.

Here in the states, we see a lot of cast off equipment from children and adults who jump in to activities with both feet and pocketbook only to find their interest wanes. It makes for some good bargain hunting on the secondary market.

Good luck and best wishes.

It's not a numbers game. European pianos offering alternative sound experience are just being more discovered.

The question is "what is European sound" considering there have always been number of variations to begin with.

Interestingly enough, new pianos are now being designed and build in China which come close to offer same or at least similar sound experience. Unfortunately, not enough people have experienced these fairly new lines of pianos to make judgement.

If you think this is a a laughing matter, it was certainly not for a couple of German piano factrory heads I recently spoke to.

Overall we should tread lightly on people's desires to buy the "right" piano for themselves. There are few black and whites left, right or wrongs.

Let's respect anybody's decision - for whatever reason it's being made.

In the final analysis it's what we do with it - once we own a piano....

Norbert

It's funny because a lot of those pianos are found in the homes in Germany, and not the German made ones.

I am curious to know ... How you would know that.

A piano industry person, can't remember who, posted that he was expecting to see German pianos in many homes on his visit but actually saw many of the Chinese made German pianos. He also commented about the sale statistics. That is where this quote came from. I think Norbert mentioned something about it too, on his visits.

Not trying to start any trouble. It's a beautiful day here in the Washington DC Metropolitan Area.

Thanks ..

Beautiful day here in Boston as well ..

Hi Norbert

Steinberg's English translation on the same website is nothing like the German copy though - maybe you should offer to translate it for them






Copyright © 2010 WILH.STEINBERG PIANOS Thüringer Pianoforte GmbH | Mozartstr. 3 | 07607 Eisenberg, Germany | Tel.:+49 (0) 36691 / 595-0 | E-Mail: WSTPianos@aol.com

Choose between the following levels of our instruments:
WILH.STEINBERG IQ

100% German craftsmanship, made entirely at our factory in Eisenberg. “Klavierbau” at its best.

WILH.STEINBERG AC

Pianos which combine both traditional German craftsmanship and state-of-the-art technology: handcrafted German components combined with cost efficient industrialized elements, using traditional craftsmanship to produce the very best sound and touch in the medium price range. We are proud to offer all of the important key features of German piano making in a price range which is dominated by industrialized pianos.
WILH.STEINBERG P

German designed pianos with selected quality parts, manufactured in modern, cutting-edge facilities. Quality assurance is guaranteed by our Klavierbaumeister. Sound and touch are impressive!
The Level III piano line confirms that German engineering can produce incomparable results, even in the budget range.


Best wishes.

Hi Chris,

Obviously, the magic words missing from the English language version are "China" and "Czech Republic".

I'm glad you brought this up. When I first read Norbert's link, I didn't even get to the end because it sounded like the standard boiler-plate stuff that marketing gurus come up with to pump just about every European sub line. Now going back, I see a bit more than that.

As I read it,

"ausgelagert" equals outsorcing.

"Fertigung" equals final prodcution, not the same as manufacture.

The two are linked in the first sentence to indicate that although outsourcing has been done to control costs (clearly stated), the final production in Eisenberg, Germany ensures no loss of quality.

The next sentence (to me) is a doozy.

"Bei diesem Prozess haben wir in den vergangen Jahren große Erfahrung gesammelt, denn wir kooperieren seit 1998 mit unseren Partnern in China und Tschechien."

Here is a company which I believe has only recently dipped its toe in the sub line market plainly stating 13 years of partnership with Chinese and Czech piano entities, and claiming that these partnerships give them an edge in experience. I'm not sure that message helps its cause.

The next sentence"

Die Qualität, die wir hier verlangen, ergänzen wir mit klangrelevanten Komponenten, die in Eisenberg/Thüringen entstehen.

indicates that the quality the company demands [and presumably pays for] in its outsourcing is complemented by its addition of German-made sound-producing components in Eisenberg.

This makes sense except that there is no universal agreement on what components are sound-producing. For example, in his description of Steinberg AC, Lary Fine states grand cases to be structural and not acoustic. One could easily argue that the rim of the case is important in sound production even if the rim is not manipulated by the player to create sound.

The last sentence:

"Die Instrumente, die das WILH.STEINBERG Level AC-Logo tragen, erhalten den Schriftzug „Made in Germany“. Er garantiert das sehr gute Klangvolumen und die äußerst ansprechende Optik und Haptik."

indicates that the Steinberg AC qualify for the "Made in Germany" designation, and that this guarantees good piano volume [not tone], as well as a highly desirable appearance and feel.

IMO, the "Made in Germany" certification is manipulated by some German piano makers to the extent that it guarantees nothing at all, but even if it did guarantee what it is intended to guarantee, it's only a matter of cost percentages and not about a certain level of volume, or desirable feel and appearance.

What is missing in all this is a breakdown of parts content such as the one that Larry Buck provided on this thread.



Maybe Larry could comment on his source. Even though makers have a lot of flexibility (wiggle room) in estimating their own costs to reach the 80% standard, there is a lot more meat in Larry's description than there is in either of the company's descriptions

Norbert,

Please note. I'm not trying to pick on the guy who sampled a grape at the Naschmarkt while the perpetrator of grand larceny runs off free.

Remember, you brought this up. If I'm misinterpreting the German, please correct.

Hi all:

First of all I'm not a Steinberg dealer, have no stake any of this. In fact I recently had stated something wrong: Steinberg has not been bought by Parsons as claimed: the companies simply work together in certain areas. Frederick Steffes is still boss, in fact he said "his wife is"....

Any questions if a piano is 100%,90% or 50% "made in Germany" can quickly be answered by its *price*

Wether or not a $ 8-15k piano is supposed to be 100% "made in Germany" is irrelevant:it could never have been made 100% there!

Now, if one is willing to spend 20-40k for an upright - chances are it actually "is"

Same for all the Euro sub-lines emphasizing "Europe this" and "Europe that" - "built to our specifications" and so on.

Outside being fool's paradise, the midground quickly becoming a crowded battlefield out there with nobody recognizing the other one across the board....

Unless we go back where it all started and judge a piano truly as a *musical instrumemt*

Don't forget good sound doesn't fall from the sky - as little as does good food.[sigh... ]

In each case sound & touch is the net result of everything else going on inside a piano.

It something you can't bluff yourself around any longer.

Be it made 100%, 80% or 50% - *wherever*.

Norbert

Sorry to back track but I just joined this thread and am catching up on some earlier remarks exchanged by turandot and Larry

I would have to agree with Larry and wonder why turandot aims to avoid adding his own personal integrity to his posts. I am also amazed at how many people are intimidated even in anticipation of what his next post might be.
Turandot, you would be an utter fool if you would ever suggest that you are unaware of your eloquent intimidating ways... in which case I offer you to answer plainly why at times you use this forum to bully various conversations yet cowardly do not sign the bottom of your posts.
To your credit, I could understand if you do infact hold a position in the musical world where exposing yourself at this point would jeopardize your career - that would be understandable. On the other hand, if that is the reason, then it has been very unprofessional of you to allow it to have ever gotten to that extent.

Usually your posts are so precise and calculated. The following excerpts suggest you are ever so slowly becoming careless:







Although none of these statements contradicts the other,
you are slipping.

NG, Thank you for owning up to your rather narrow interest in this thread.

My own integrity is not added to my posts; it is in my posts.

The street price for a 100 % German made IQ 16 in black polished is about 7.000 Euros, which is about 9.600 US-Dollar. At least I assume that it is 100 % German made with its Renner action, Strunz soundoard, Kluge keyboard, German strings and pins, assembled in Eisenberg......

What would be the price in the USA? Just curious.

Gregor

Gregor,

I didn't expect Norbert too see any benefit to responding to this one.

The IQ 16 in black polish has a list in the US of just under $18k. It's hard to know street price because Wilh. Steinberg's market presence is small here now, but probably something between 12k and 15k.

Rayquek,

It seems from your last post that you're down to a just a couple of choices. I made the case for the Petrof, but I noticed in your last post that one of the points that appealed to you about the Petrof is the European Seal of Excellence. I would not want you to choose a piano based on that particular bit of information.

The seal is awarded by CAFIM, an assocaition of European instrument makers. The president of CAFIM is the president of Petrof. You will find that the instrument makers who were awarded the seal are not the great European piano makers, but a group of Eastern European (mainly Czech) manufacturers. Here's a link so you can check it out.

http://www.european-excellence.com/certified-products/default.aspx

It is my understanding that German piano makers were invited at one point to join the association but declined. I would assume that they saw little upside to being co-equal with Czech counterparts, whereas Petrof would stand to gain quite a bit from being considered co-equal to the German makers.

In any case, the importance of the CAFIM seal is debatable since the organization's function is basically to give exposure to Czech manufacturers.

I had read all the posts and indeed it has benefit me to see all the perspectives. I understand that it still need me or my child to like the sound and touch.

Choosing a piano is also same experience when I am buying a camera. I was choosing between Nikon and Canon. A lot of people in the forum told me to go and hold the camera then I will know which I like. True enough, after I went to a shop to try to hold both camera, immediately I know which one I like. I think the process of buying a camera should be more simple than choosing a piano.

when I went to those piano shops, I also try to press the key and I can feel the difference in touch. Some pianos, I need to press harder to have a tone while some pianos, I just press lightly and I can hear the tone. For this case, which touch is better? Just press lightly or harder to have a sound. Some told me that if the key pressing is harder, it is not good for the child. Some told me that if the key pressing is too light, the child cannot control the expressiveness through loud and soft tone and the hand muscle cannot build up. I'm quite confuse in touch. Hope to hear advice on touch so the next round I can try it. And also other advices which can help a non player to try out and what to take note on trying out. Thanks a lot!

Ray,

I'm certainly not the most qualified to write about this, but the question seems to be slipping away unanswered, so I'll give it a shot from a player's perspective.



Almost everyone who begins piano study practices on one and only one piano. This piano determines the player's sense of touch. It remains the standard until another piano replaces it as the everyday instrument of the player. This is why one person's 'heavy' can be another person's 'light'.

The static weight of the touch really doesn't vary much among new pianos. If the retailer has the pianos set up according to the manufacturers' prep regimen, touch weights all fall within a narrow range. No manufacturer wold design a touch weight heavy enough to harm a child since beginning children are an important market for piano sales. I think you can dismiss those 'harmful to children' comments as salesmanship.

When you are actually playing the piano you experience much more than static weight. What you feel is weight in motion. There are differences in the ways keys resist. There are differences in how far they travel down and how quickly they string back. Even with the same static weight, two pianos can feel very different when that dead static weight is set in motion. IMO "control of expressiveness" is much more about the action in motion than it is about whether the touch weight is lighter or heavier. Some piano actions just feel smoother and more secure whether they are 'light' or 'heavy' in the player's judgment. Of course there is some subjectivity, but in my experience there's quite a bit of consensus in what good players like and don't like.

One problem that students have (child or adult) is that after they practice hard between lessons and can execute the practice material well, they can then go for the next lesson and be disoriented and frustrated by the difference in the teacher's piano. As kids (or adults) progress, this becomes less of a problem. They can sense differences but can compensate for them in their play.

Since neither you nor your child has playing experience, I would suggest bringing an experienced player to evaluate the action response of your final piano candidates. If you have chosen a teacher for your child, maybe the teacher would do that for you. If not, maybe you have a friend who could come along. If not, then ask on the Adult Beginner in Singapore thread if someone would check out the candidates with you and give you his impressions of action response..

Thanks! turandot. Your advice does help me to understand it.
Thanks so much!

So I think it is difficult to judge by myself. I will then try to arrange someone to help me then. It is really difficult process to find a suitable piano compare to camera. But I do learn a lot from many of you here. Really thanks so much to all of you!

Hi all,

I had finally settled for a piano after a long research. Thanks so much to all of you who had given me the advices.

I had chosen Petrof 125. Few reasons which I like to share why I choose Petrof. 1) my daughter likes the touch and sound 2) other brand of pianos have parts from China 3) many piano teacher recommended Petrof 4) personally I like the singing tone.

During my selection, my shortlisted list had been finalize to Bohemia and Petrof. Wilh. Steinberg IQ24 is what I like but over my budget while AC23 has parts from China so I cancel it from my list.

W. Hoffman T128 is one of my selection but I didn't choose because I heard bad story of the dealer for bad after sales service.

For Bohemia 132 concerto, I worried about it because the new model for it is going to replace it, R132.

I also don't like the reply from C. Bechstein as they don't really answer or want to answer. They always asked me to refer to the dealer. From this kind response, I decide not to buy any sub- brand from C. Bechstein as I don't have confident for good service from manufacturer unlike the good response from Wilh. Steinberg and Petrof which I received.

I know that I can asked questions to dealer but I also want to see how is the response from manufacturer as I will know if I can get good support from manufacturer. Dealer can be change but not so easy for manufacturer. If the dealer cannot help me, at least I know I can get support from manufacturer. Frankly speaking, I am quite disappointed with the bad response from C. Bechstein so it had left me a bad impression about them and I will not buy any of their sub-brand. They are didn't give more details about their piano which I doubt about their truthfulness about their piano.

With the above reasons, I had finally decided to buy Petro. The dealer and the good response from manufacturer give me confident in buying Petrof. Plus no parts are for Petrof are from China.

Congratulations! It's a lovely piano (I tried it before myself) and I'm sure your child (and yourself) will have many happy moments playing it.

Congratulations on choosing your new piano. Now that you have made your choice do you have plans to learn along with her?

Best wishes to the new student too.

Thanks for the congratulation! I'm too also excited about the arrival for my new piano.

Well, I also intend to learn some basic skill from my child's teacher as I will be in the class.

Looking forward for my new piano arrival next week.

Hi!

Just a litter sharing of my new piano. It has arrived last week and the piano had not been tune yet so I still cannot feel the potential sound from my new Petrof. The tuner will be coming tomorrow so I am looking forward for my new piano to be tune.

Will share again after that.

Hi all!

My new piano for my daughter has been tune for the first time. I could feel some difference on the tone and touch.

So far, my daughter had been practicing diligently on it which I was happy about it. At least, it does motivate her to practice more. Currently, my daughter can't play well so I could not hear the beautiful music which Petrof should project it out.

At the same time, I got a new piano teacher and one of the parents need to be in the lesson with my daughter. It is good as I could also learn at the same time. I am so happy that I had found a good teacher as she plays very well. She shows me how techniques are so important to project the music. It is really amazing!

I am so happy to have settle down with the new piano and also to have found a good piano teacher.

Once again i would like to say a Big "Thanks You!" to people who had taught me and giving me advices for all these while on buying a piano. Thank you very much!

A good teacher is just as important as a good piano. Congratulations, and I wish you happy learning!