Hi all,

I'm a pro jazz musician (Sydney, Australia) and I'm looking for a new piano. I have an old Yamaha G1 that has been well looked after but I no longer have the room for.

I'm looking for a good upright and my piano tech recommended I check out the Hoffman and Seiler brands. I want something with a firm action to give my hands a workout. The new Kawais and Yamahas aren't that impressive to me.

What would you recommend?

Darren

I recommend an upright Steinway if you have a large room. The action is quick and the sound is rich. About the only drawback is the volume. This is an incredibly loud piano and requires a large room.

If you like the Hoffman's they are a solid choice and a good value. You might also check out the Bechstein Academy line which is one step up in quality (and price) above Hoffman. And if money is no object you might check out the C.Bechstein line which is the best of the best.
I personally think that Steinway's uprights are grossly overpriced for what you get. The action often feels unresponsive and the tone is 'tubby' to my ears. I think the best German uprights are a far cut above Steinway. Steingraeber, Bosendorfer, Sauter, Grotrian--whole other league in my opinion--but also very expensive considering you can get a fine grand for the same price or less. Good luck on your piano hunt.
Also check the the Piano Buyer publication if you haven't already. It has a wealth of knowledge and is free to read online.

Probably out of my $10,000 budget I'm afraid. I should have mentioned this.
My room is 18m2 with a high ceiling...

I seem to remember the Hoffman line fitting your budget. You may also find a gently used Bechstein in your range if your lucky.

Wouldn't good value depend on the price being asked?

Pr3lude,

If the tech is recommending an authentic German Seilr, by price at least it's way out of the Hoffmann's class. It has very clear tone and more power than a Hoffmann. There are now Seiler pianos from Indonesia as well. They are much cheaper, but have no track record.

Hoffmann pianos are sold with different model designations and different parts content in different parts of the world. Basically, there are two lines that are sold in the US. One is claimed to be made entirely in the Czech Republic of all East European parts. The other is claimed to be a mating of Chinese and East European parts content. It's hard to say how either would hold up as a practice piano for a professional azz musician who wants a daily workout.

On the action thing, I'd go piano by piano, not brand by brand. To me Kawai vertical actions are noticeably heavier than those of Yamaha (not that I mind either) , but it's all very subjective. Action feel varies even on different samples of the same model. Best thing is to get out there and see what feels good to your hands and has decent build quality at your price..

Thanks everyone.
What do you think about build quality between Japanese and German uprights? Probably too broad a topic I guess...

Arggg - if Hoffman's sold in Australia are different to the rest of the world I could be buying an Indonesian piano and I don't want that. The sales people here know nothing about the Hoffman's, which makes me nervous.
I don't miond the KAWAI K35 - the action is nice but the tone is dull, with little sustain. I usually like Yamaha but the current models (except the most expensive) are lacklustre.

This could be a long, painful process...

I think so. Probably a good title for a new thread, if you really want to know about it...

Build quality is good in both areas. I do think that Kawai upright actions are heavier than yamaha upright actions. Older Kawai"s with the ABS action (not Millenium III ABS- carbon) have a slightly heavier action. I recall hoffmann's had a comparatively lighter action, but they sounded pretty good. Boston uprights have a quite heavy action that you may like, but I'm not sure about the price, they are more expensive than others I think due to the "designed by Steinway", but they are quite nice. You can always get your technician to regulate the action for you, if that helps.

Good luck!

Obviously. And I think there are enough resources available to us internet junkies to get a ballpark idea of what price might be asked. And considering what you get for that price, I think Hoffman pianos ARE a good value. If someone is asking $30,000 for a Hoffman upright then no, it isn't a good value. But who would do that when anyone can spend 5 minutes with the Google search engine to get a rough idea of what ANYTHING is worth these days?

Authentic German and authentic Japanese pianos both have track records that suggest a high degree of durability. Authentic German pianos may vary more sample to sample in consistency of action and tone, but that's because they have been built with less automated machinery (although that is changing with some brands).

When you get into the sublines like Hoffmann it all becomes very complicated. Some of the big German brands have built their sublines or had them built in different places at different times with different parts and different model names for different markets. It can be tough to unravel, and even tougher to predict durability.

And it's not only the German brands. Both Kawai and Yamaha offer models built in China and in Indonesia. They sell some of them in some markets and others in others. For example, in the US we get some Yamahas from China. In Europe they get the Indonesian ones instead of the Chinese.

The durability of sublines may prove to be great, but it's hard to predict with everything so fluid.

One thing is true though. In almost any market 10k will buy a new artist level Japanese upright. It will not buy a new artist level German upright.

With a budget of 10K, living in Australia, a jazz piano for practice. Repeat practice, I would go with a brand new U3.

Very rich tone, action is great, and most of all the tuning stability will be pretty stable over rigorous use everyday. It has a serious track record that is hard to beat for daily banging.

Giving your hands a good workout daily might hurt you in the long run, with a action that is too heavy. The U3 is kind of a happy medium I think.

I want an upright with a firm enough action so, when I get on the gig with a grand piano action, I feel able to play - not struggling. Will the U3 do this?

I like that question, because that is what always confused me. From what I have read here upright actions do not perform as well as grand when it comes to repetition or something like that.

Most people say the Yamaha action is good because it does not struggle like most upright actions do compared to grand. But in the same sentence they say it's light. Now the Kawai M3 is suppose to have more power, speed, and dynamics, but it is a little on the heavy side.

The Yamaha U series dominate many institutions where the playing level is very high. So are they there because they are so reliable or because they perform great as one moves from it to a Grand.

I know some piano players who would supplement piano playing with certain hand building exercises daily, in case they ran into a piano that was out of regulation or just plain heavy.

I hear a lot of professionals like practicing on Kawai uprights, I even heard one say the new M3 feels like a Steinway Grand action, weight wise.

I can't answer your question because I am not a professional like you, but I hope I spark enough interest to get other professionals to chime in.

dj,

Just as actions on verticals are not all alike, actions on grands offer variety in touch as well. I'm sure you realize that from playing on a variety of pianos in venues. If a piano at a venue is not well-maintained and it plays like a truck, no specific daily workout will make that much fun. Conversely, if a piano at a venue has an old grand with so much hammer felt gone that the keys depress if you blow on them, a home piano with macho key resistance isn't going to make the task easier.

So, there's no general answer to your question. You really need to get out there are find the vertical piano that feels good to your hands and gives you the sound you want. Ultimately that's more important than the specific touchweight. It could be that the old G1 has a lot of friction built up and plays heavy. In that case you might find new Yamaha pianos lighter than you like. Play everything you can find in your local market. If there's something that grabs you but seems a little light, ask the shop if they could make an action adjustment before you commit.

My experience with players down sizing from a grand to a vertical, is 100% of them are not satisfied with the vertical. You may want to look into getting a couple of keyboards and recording equipment.

This is the very reason for the purchase of my Boston UP-118S PE. I was looking for an upright that would help me keep my classical "chops" up, so that I can move easily to a grand in performances.

I tried the K3, which I found to be a terrific instrument. For me it would have been a good practice instrument - immediate "access" to lots of tonal variety with a tremendously reponsive action. However, I chose the Boston over the K3 because I find I have to work very precisely to produce the sounds I want, thinking carefully about how I use my technique on the Boston. Then I find the instrument very responsive.

I think the Steinway 1098, and the Bostons, are excellent practice instruments for professional pianists (for those who need strong "piano muscles" and want good technical control in order to convey/project their musical ideas in a performance venue). My Boston has actually helped improve my musicianship when playing on grand pianos.

Tim

Hi Darren:

I've read through the posts and recommendations in this thread, and while I hesitate to promote, I honestly think you are the exact client that Kayserburg pianos are directed at.

As Turandot correctly stated, it would be impossible to find an authentic 100% German piano in the price point you have indicated. Having been the US distributor for several German piano lines, and retailing pianos for over 30 years, I have never seen an instrument that comes as close to a European piano built in Asia as does Kayserburg. Perhaps because the designer, Lothar Thomma, designed all of Bechstein's pianos in the late 80's and 90's, these pianos truly have a firm yet responsive touch, giving the pianist incredible control and allowing for subtleties and nuances usually reserved for far more expensive uprights.

I know that Kayserburgs are available in Australia and I would encourage you to seek out the 130 and 132 and see if they meet your requirements. You might need to have them voiced a bit brighter than usual given that Jazz is your primary emphasis, but I think you will like the tone palate and feel.

Apologies to all for the blatant promotion.

Hi Darren--good to see you over here.

Having heard a little of what you do , I would tend to agree with Aliwally's post.

I've played both the U3s and the Kawai K8s . To my ears and hands, they both are fine instruments for daily practice. I particularly like the newer Yamaha YUS3 52" pianos I've played- but I believe they are over 10K.

I've had to choose one over the other, being more of a jazz guy, I'd opt for the Yamaha-although the Kawai K8s tone does mirror that of their RX series grands--beautiful.

Haven't played any Hoffmans ( although I"d like to) so I can't help you there.

Don't know the used market there but here in LA, it's a buyer's market on CL.



Unfortunately I must agree with the first part of this post but I'm still of the belief that a good quality upright is more rewarding (from both a technical and musical standpoint) for a serious jazz pianist then any keyboard....

Thanks everyone.
I'll revisit the K8, YUS3 and Kayserburgs.
It's gonna be a long journey. Looking forward to inspiring practice on a new instrument.

Darren

I'll give some -RRP- prices on Yamaha YUS uprights from the 2011 yamaha Australia brochure:

YUS1 (121cm): AUD$12995
YUS3 (131cm): AUD$15995
YUS5 (131cm): AUD$18995

YUS5 has a grand-style music rack and a upper tone release, meaning that it releases sound through a hole in the case behind the music rack.

I've had a W. Hoffmann T122 for about a year now, and it's a good quality piano. I play it every night for 1 to 2 hours or so, and have had no issues with it.

If you are concerned about the origin of one of their pianos, you can submit a question on their website providing the serial number. I did that before I bought mine just to make sure what year it was made, and where. They responded within 2 days or so, and were very helpful. The models with a T are made in the Czech Republic. The models with a V are the ones that have the strung back from China.

If you have a spare $90,000+ lying around this piano might be the one. Better hurry though ...

Ah I just learned about the AvantGrand - must check it out as it has a grand piano action, which just might be the ticket for me.

The Avantgrand is not available in Australia - bummer - what the heck! Surely it would sell here!

Darren