I play the piano 1 year and 4 months (I am 28 years old). I couldn’t even imagine that this instrument will give me so much joy. I really feel I am alive when I play and feel like I am dead person if I don’t play. Playing piano became important part of my life – I would laugh if somebody told me this 2 years ago

Right now I have a digital piano (the price was about 1200 EUR) but I already discovered that digital piano is not a real piano and will never be. Sound of digital piano always sounds so “digital” – it can never match with real clear acoustic sound that is produced by strings. Besides this I am tired of plastic wobbling keys.

Here is the thing. I already know that I will play piano as long as I can (probably till I get old), because I really enjoy playing it. That’s why I decided myself that I want to have real acoustic piano. I’m just thinking right now that I am in specific period in my life that is probably the best time to purchase the piano – I expect that later can emerge many different obligations in my life and this can potentially cause my hesitation. Not just psychologically but also financially, who knows what the future will bring.

I will be honest: I know very little about acoustic pianos. First thing I had to decide: should I buy upright piano or baby grand (more than 165 cm in not an option). I was thinking a lot and because people say that this instrument lasts for a very long time and that there is a very great chance that you buy a piano only once in your life (meant of course for “normal” people like me, not professional pianists or rich people), I am more and more leaning towards baby grand. I want to buy it once and then have it, I don’t want planning in the near future to buy another one, well at least not in the next 20 years or so. The budget is limited to 9.500-10.000 EUR and I also don’t want to buy used piano because I don’t know much about acoustic piano-technology and therefore if something won’t be OK, I will not be able to recognize any irregularity at the beginning of the purchase. I really don’t want to regret my decision for the next 20 years. I was searching on the internet and I found out that I really don’t have much of a choice: Kawai GM 10, GE 20 or GE 30. There is also Yamaha GB1. I also read that GE 20 and GE 30 have duplex scale. GE 30 is also a little longer (164 cm) than the other three (150-154 cm). Does this mean that it should sound better, maybe deeper bass because of longer strings? (I like deep bass). GM 10 sounds weak at lower range. I am looking for the best “price/what you get” ratio and I believe GE 30 is probably the one. So I am asking you what would you buy if you had 9.500 EUR budged (living in EU of course)? In our country GE 30 is available for about 10.000 EUR. I read that people are very big fans of RX-1 but I believe this is too expensive (over 12.000 EUR). Well, I probably would buy 1 or 2 years old RX-1, but why would somebody sell 1 or 2 years old piano unless something is wrong with it. I also discovered that you can buy in our country brand Steinmayer, but low price (less than 8000 EUR) for 186 cm long piano makes me wonder. What do you think? I never heard that you can buy such a long piano for such a low price. Are there any other brands (for my budget of course) that I should look after? Hailun for instance can not be bought in our country (Slovenia), at least I didn’t find it.

I also want to ask you on what should I be careful by purchasing a new piano. How can I know if it’s really new, I wouldn’t be surprised if salesman would try to sell me some hidden exhibit that looks like new. I know it sounds stupid but I already have such experiences (of course not with piano but with other few things). What is the normal praxis for dealers when they talk about the price: is this usually their final price or are they generally willing to negotiate for the price. I heard about serial numbers that can tell you where it was made. It this important by Kawai, is it made on different parts of the world? if so, which are the best?...

I know I wrote a lot but you have to understand this is a big project for me. I am writing it here because I believe that I will get very good advices from you. I consider you for much more valuable sources than dealers, all they want is just to sell pianos, of course after all this is their job. Not everyone, but I heard about the dealers that are not totally honest and I really don’t want to be mislead by someone.

Thanks, and sorry for my English.

GE30 is nice. Because the longer bass strings give better, clearer bass tone.

Kawai makes GM10 in Indonesia. All other grands are made in Japan. The serial number can also date the piano, giving you what year it was made.

When dealers talk about price, usually you have room to negociate a bit.

It is very understandable that this is a big project for you, and you don't want to get mislead. It is fun, frustrating at times, and tedious at worst, but you will most likely get an instrument that will last you, as you say, a lifetime.

Do look at some other brands other than Kawai. Secondhand is not so much a problem, but if you consider it, get a technician to check it out to avoid costly, complicated problems.

Keep us posted!

You can check out the brands here

http://www.pianobuyer.com/fall11/45.html

To make absolutely sure that a piano is new and/or has warranty, you can always call the company (e.g., Kawai directly) and give them the serial number to look up more information.

I bought a Kawai grand... kinda more than I need, but now that I have it, I can't dream of giving it up!

ZBGMO,

It is not because you are living in Slovenia you could not find any Hailun dealers, you will not find Hailun in Europe.

But you can find Wendl & Lung - the name soon to be changed into Feurich after the merger of W&L and Feurich. The till now called W&L range of pianos is manufactured at the Hailun factory in Ningbo.

Below links are soon to be updated:
Wendl & Lung

Feurich

Example of a dealer in Slovenia:
Silic Klavirji

schwammerl.

What about a lightly used Petrof? I am guessing they are not so very expensive since they are not so very far from you.

Digitals reallly do sound like digitals. It's an odd phenomenon really! Still, your digital can't be so bad. You're pretty excited about playing the piano and you're not dead.

Look! Your post indicates that you're pretty caught up in this whole business emotionally. You've got to take a deep breath and go slow. There's no urgency. The digital hasn't killed you. The pianos for sale aren't going to disappear.

When you bought the digital you bet 1200 EUR that you would like playing the piano. Now you're going to bet 10 times that amount that your interest will be lifelong. That's a lot of money. Keep your emotions under control and learn the specifics of why you like some pianos better than others and why you like one more than all the others. When you can clearly undertand and articulate this information, you'll be ready to buy, you will have forgotten the GM 10 completely, and you won't be much interested in others' preferences.

Petrof pianos are realtively expensive in Europe too. All grand, whether the old roman numbered series or the new series, in the size range the OP is looking for will at least be double the price he is prepared spending on a piano...unless the OP has access or would be interested in there lower line Asian built Weinbachs on which I cannnot comment.

schwammerl.

Thank you all for this informations. I appreciate this. I am sure that this informations will help me easier to make my decision.

Turandot: Maybe you are right, maybe I am also involved emotionally. But I also know that I prefer sound of acoustic piano much more. I also know that plastic key are becoming each day more shaky (I play at least 3h a day) and you can feel lateral movement while playing which is really not nice but much better that not playing at all. When playing loud (not very loud, let say approximately 60-70% of maximum) it sounds like all the tones are fighting to each other (it is difficult to explain), it is just something that is not good anymore for ears, is sounds like “noise”. Especially when I heard one of my acquaintances played acoustic piano – day and night. My piano sounds much better when you play it more quietly. The brand is Casio. But I respect your opinion, probably there are also emotions and therefore I am not planning to buy it tomorrow. I will go slow:) It will be stupid purchase something quick.

Thanks

I think you're misinterpreting my comments. I do not for a moment question your preference for acoustic pianos or your decision to buy one. I do not question your proposed budget. What I am telling you is that you should go about choosing at a relaxed pace and allow yourself the time to educate yourself to all the subtle differences among competing brands and models. IMO that's the best way to reach the best decision.

Sometimes people collect a bunch of recommendations here and then chase around after those recommendations rather than letting the piano market come to them through their own ears and fingers. That chase can makes things confusing and get in the way of making the choice that is best for you.

Emotions can also get in the way of noticing all those subtle differences. Emotions create urgency and can lead to rash decisions. If you take an organized unhurried approach, then your decision will be ruled by the knowledge you acquire and a logical understanding of what is best for you.

In coming from a digital, you need to be especially careful since all the acoustics you play may initially seem great when compared to your Casio. You want to get beyond that to the stage where you can compare them to each other.

My bad, I was reading to fast. I understand you well now and you are perfectly right.


I know already now that it will be difficult: hypothetically let’s say that I narrow my decision and that at the end there will only be two pianos left: GE 30 and Wendl & Lung 178. Prices are very similar, even more, Wendl is cheaper for about 500 EUR and it sounds better for ME (not to forget – hypothetically, I didn’t try any of those yet). Common sense will tell me : “Then buy Wendl & Lung”. But then immediately I predict that I WILL also have second thoughts, because the brand Wendl & Lung in not Kawai. There is just something in my mind that tells me that piano that was made in Japan (Kawai) should have better quality than piano made in China and that I should buy a piano with brand that is more respected and recognized and so on. I will probably believe that Kawai is better on the long run, maybe more durable (maybe wrong thinking)… We also have a term: “Chinese goods” which has negative meaning – and I personally don’t think anything bad but it just affects me. The brand is just something that does something emotional deep down in soul and it really affects your decision. … I will probably start asking myself why is Wendl so “cheap” but at the same time longer (178 cm) and produces better sound…I will start thinking something is not what it seems to be… And I am sure that Wendl & Lung is a good piano, I also heard that some professional pianists made a test and they said that Wendl is amazing piano (if I remember correct).

I hope you understand my “problem”…Brand can affect my decision and just don’t know what I would do in this case (fictional example: Kawai vs. Wendl & Lung). I know, maybe I complicate but I have to clear it up. I am just saying what is going on in my head:)

Thanks

Advices regd. the question "upright vs. babygrand" - and your opinion that going >160/165 cm would be no option:

These tiny Kawai grands coming from Indonesia can be (can..) a big fun! … compared with other baby grands. A young friend of mine owns one which he could buy as a used one in an italian restaurant near Dusseldorf, Germany for less than 3.500 EUR. Great piano - besides of the length missing.

So I recommend in general to take into account also used pianos/grands.. Much fun for less money.

A baby grand of 155-165cm normally has a smaller soundboard surface, less than a normal-size upright in the range of 120 to 125cm height. This is related to the necessary “hammer gap” which in a grand prevents usage of the whole inner space for soundboard surface. So tone volume and smoothness is quite limited in a babygrand.

So recommendation will always be to check if there isn’t a little bit more space to install a slightly longer grand of 180 to 190 cm.

Especially when bought used the longer ones are the cheaper ones: another disadvantage babygrand. (..and a disadvantage for a medium size grand, when a longer grand should go for sale.) Used baby grands are sold very well, a fact which I can only understand related to the “child factor” which seems to be estimated by women mainly…

Grands – regardless of length – have a much better playing mechanism compared with uprights. Since the very old “over damper” systems in upright pianos disappeared around 1900-1910 there no longer was such a smooth touch and feel in uprights compared with a normal grand mechanism (“double english repetition”, system Erard).

When your playing capabilites increase, you will really feel the difference. So I personally always plead for a grand - of medium (or even longer) size. My knowledge on these facts came very late in my life. I used over 30years a good old german upright, then changed to a grand. There is no real comparison. In nearly all musical regards a grand is simply the much better piano. It is dearer, it needs more space, but this is justified by the much better musical results which become possible by a grand only.

.... and, of course, don't forget the possibility of renting a piano.

i support turandot's post. An investment in your knowledge about pianos would be very wise.. no need to rush.

I too agree with Turandot (as usual!).

I would also suggest you spend a few hours reading Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer. It has a number of articles that would be invaluable to you.

BerndAB: thanks for all this explanation about upright vs. grand/baby grand . I said before that more than 165 cm is not an option because of the budged. But I think the space would allow me to put 20 cm longer piano in my room. Many people recommend the same as you: little longer piano 180-190 cm – better piano. I will also think about used pianos but I am more for a new one.

I will not rush, I will try to learn much as possible about pianos. I will take time.

I agree wholeheartedly with Apple and Steve.

Seriously, you have a good command of English. I think Larry Fine's Pianobuyer articles (specifically those written by him) would be very worthwhile for you.




This is a risk/reward hypothetical. It's a tough one because the Chinese piano is selling at only a 5% discount to the Japanese. In the US, the difference is far greater -- something like 30 or 40% on average. However one might assess the risk, the reward is more substantial than in your hypotethtical. If the Chinese makers who do business in the Us offered parallel pianos at only a 5% discount to the Japanese, the Chinese makers would have fewer customers.

Anyway, looking at your hypothetical as stated, the piano that you like more is the cheaper one, so there's no issue there. The question is how to address your legitimate concern about lack of track record and potential for shoddy manufacture.

This forum can be useful for that assessment. There are quite a few owners of Hailun-built pianos here on this forum. Some of them are pretty positive and vocal. There are members who own other Chinese pianos as well. Satisfaction level seems pretty good, in some cases more than that. Of course none of them have owned their pianos for all that long. It's impossible for the Chinese to compete with decades of Japanese product and service excellence at this time, but you don't want to wait 20 years to buy a piano.

I would personally address my concern directly through the retailer. I would look into his background and his technical expertise. I would find out how long he has been selling the brand and how committed he is to the representation. Shops can pick up a few Chinese instruments without much of a commitment. The relationship can end quickly too. The ideal situation would be the chance to learn how his piano placements are doing and how good his service is.

If you are really sold on the Chinese piano's touch and tone, you could hire an independent technician to come to the shop and assess its quality and state of prep. You'd have to have permission form the shop and you'd have to pay a fee to the tech. It's unusual to do this with a new piano, but it happens. You could also verify the warranty and born date through a serial number check with the company. You want to be careful of born date. If it's more than two years ago, it's possible that particular piano has been kicked around Europe from cancelling dealer to other dealers. You don't want that.

Another way to deal with the problem would be to try to beat down the price to the level where the discount overrides your concerns about the risk. I know you can't do as much price negotiation in Europe as you can in the US,, but you can do some.

Personally, I wouldn't pay much attention to magazine articles. I assume you're referring to the French magazine trial which gave high marks to W&L's 178. Those things are subjective assessments of a piano's capability at one moment in time, not over the long haul.

BTW, it's my understanding that no new W&L's are being supplied by Hailun and that W&L stock in Europe is being sold off. The new representation for Hailun in Europe is Feurich of Gunznhausen in Germany. If W&L is more than a hypothetical in your mind, you would want to look into how the W&L warranty would be handled going forward.

Have you looked for Brodmann and Ritmuller (if available)? Also good values made in China by Austrian and German parent companies. Might be a good alternative to W&L if the new Feurich relationship means warranty concerns (as turandot mentioned).

Hello,Kendra here.

*Edited by moderator*
Kendra, your post read too much like an advertizement, which is not allowed on the open forums.

Rickster

Thanks Turandot.

You have a point about commitment. As far as I know this dealer (I believe he is the only one in the country that imports Wendl & Lung ) just started to sell this brand. He has long tradition, but not with this brand. So it is pretty new to him and he probably doesn’t know how the business will be – not the whole business but with this particular brand. It is really difficult to say what will happen in the future, maybe next year he won’t represent it anymore, who knows… But if you look Kawai, most (almost everyone) of the dealers support this brand and I assume that they offer very good services (maintenance and so on) because they have decades of experiences with Kawai (strong commitment).

Gnuboi: I will check this two brands.

Thanks for Piano Buyer. I will read it. I really see that this forum is helpful.

Keep playing these two and perhaps other brands of pianos until you determine what you like about each (especially touch and tone over the various parts of the keyboard). It's not so much a matter of better or worse: both the W&L and the Kawai are good brands. I chose the Hailuln 178 over a Kawai RX2, but many others would make the opposite choice. Only you can ultimately determine what you prefer.

BTW, even if you make the "wrong" choice, either of these or similar instruments will undoubtedly please you for decades. So relax, take your time, and really explore the attributes of each instrument you audition.

Hop

And what might the "wrong" choice be Hop?
Are you speaking from personal experience with the choice you made?

Hop,

You give good advice in telling ZBGM0 to play the field and decide on the virtues of the pianos. However, some people would hold the view that a brand which seems to be on the verge of extinction is not a "good brand" to buy. I'm sure your assurance that either piano will "undoubtedly please you for decades" is well-intended, but I think ZBGM0 is looking for a different level of assurance.

ZBGM0.

If it does come down to these two and that W&L 178 is more than a hypothetical, you should take any concerns directly to that dealer. It's perfectly fair to ask him about his taking on a line that is apparently no longer in production. It is also perfectly reasonable to find out the born date and to seek written assurance from the retailer and from whoever is running the W&L operation at this point about how warranty terms will be handled going forward.

I'm not suggesting that you rule out that piano, just that you know exactly what you are getting into.

Some people are afraid of making choices that might be "wrong". Decision paralysis. I suspect Hop is only encouraging the OP to choose and begin enjoying a piano rather than remain in doubt.

I have a hard time making up my mind when it comes to spending a lot of money on nonessential items. I know that sounds like sacrilege to suggest that a piano is a nonessential item, but that is the case; it is indeed a luxury item.

Yet, when I get to the point of following through on a decision, or “pulling the trigger” as some put it (not sure I like that metaphor) my mind is usually made up for better or worse. I have suffered from buyer’s remorse a time or two, but not so much with pianos… more often with new vehicles.

I suppose I might be a piano salespersons worst nightmare… it takes me a while to finally pull out the check book. However, it is nice to feel really good about your piano buying decision. It’s quite a euphoric feeling when everything feels right…

Rick

That may be, but ZBGM0 is not you. if you read the thread, ZBGM0 is hardly paralyzed by fear or indecision. On the contrary, he needs to sort out what's available, find his groove, an then make a decision.

Oh, really? I thought we might be clones of each other.


Did I say ZBGMO was paralyzed by fear? Maybe you need to read the thread again, t-dot.


Great advice; that’s exactly what I did…

Rick

Rick,

I hate to break the news to you, but what you did here was post another installment of your autobiography. Maybe when you shopped, "that's exactly what I [you] did", but again, that would be your autobiography too, and the OP has an existence of his own.

Turandot, I’ve never known you to “hate” to break the news to anyone about anything here on PW. You speak your mind, no matter how cold or callous. Yet, you always have some interesting things to say and I like to read your thoughts and opinions.

As far as me having a habit of writing my autobiography of my piano shopping experiences here on PW, what’s wrong with that? I think I’ve read many of your own autobiographical episodes of your piano shopping experiences here. I think you’ve tried out and played more pianos than anyone else here, and I applaud you for that.

Are you trying to break the news to me that you think my comments, thoughts and opinions here are of no value or irrelevant and unrelated to this thread? Others have an opinion here besides you…

By-the-way, I’ve got plenty more piano related autobiography left to tell, so I have to tell it in short installments…

Oh, and ZBGMO, I apologize for this little distracting conversation between turandot and I; he thinks I’m trying to hijack your thread, steal your identity and become you… I can assure you that I’m not. I wish you the best in your piano shopping experiences.

Rick

Mercy!

Rick,

I actually enjoy your approach. You have a Will Rogers streak in your approach to pianos that is decidedly your own.

I just think that in the OP's case caution is advised due to his inexperience with acoustic pianos. You, OTOH, have bought several acoustic pianos, and are your own teacher for playing and servicing the instrument. I'm pretty sure you know all the ropes and all the tricks as well.

Let's drop it in the OP's interest. I wasn't trying to be cold and callous and (as a point of information) I've cut down drastically on showroom visits. The thrill is gone.