I play the piano 1 year and 4 months (I am 28 years old). I couldn’t even imagine that this instrument will give me so much joy. I really feel I am alive when I play and feel like I am dead person if I don’t play. Playing piano became important part of my life – I would laugh if somebody told me this 2 years ago

Right now I have a digital piano (the price was about 1200 EUR) but I already discovered that digital piano is not a real piano and will never be. Sound of digital piano always sounds so “digital” – it can never match with real clear acoustic sound that is produced by strings. Besides this I am tired of plastic wobbling keys.

Here is the thing. I already know that I will play piano as long as I can (probably till I get old), because I really enjoy playing it. That’s why I decided myself that I want to have real acoustic piano. I’m just thinking right now that I am in specific period in my life that is probably the best time to purchase the piano – I expect that later can emerge many different obligations in my life and this can potentially cause my hesitation. Not just psychologically but also financially, who knows what the future will bring.

I will be honest: I know very little about acoustic pianos. First thing I had to decide: should I buy upright piano or baby grand (more than 165 cm in not an option). I was thinking a lot and because people say that this instrument lasts for a very long time and that there is a very great chance that you buy a piano only once in your life (meant of course for “normal” people like me, not professional pianists or rich people), I am more and more leaning towards baby grand. I want to buy it once and then have it, I don’t want planning in the near future to buy another one, well at least not in the next 20 years or so. The budget is limited to 9.500-10.000 EUR and I also don’t want to buy used piano because I don’t know much about acoustic piano-technology and therefore if something won’t be OK, I will not be able to recognize any irregularity at the beginning of the purchase. I really don’t want to regret my decision for the next 20 years. I was searching on the internet and I found out that I really don’t have much of a choice: Kawai GM 10, GE 20 or GE 30. There is also Yamaha GB1. I also read that GE 20 and GE 30 have duplex scale. GE 30 is also a little longer (164 cm) than the other three (150-154 cm). Does this mean that it should sound better, maybe deeper bass because of longer strings? (I like deep bass). GM 10 sounds weak at lower range. I am looking for the best “price/what you get” ratio and I believe GE 30 is probably the one. So I am asking you what would you buy if you had 9.500 EUR budged (living in EU of course)? In our country GE 30 is available for about 10.000 EUR. I read that people are very big fans of RX-1 but I believe this is too expensive (over 12.000 EUR). Well, I probably would buy 1 or 2 years old RX-1, but why would somebody sell 1 or 2 years old piano unless something is wrong with it. I also discovered that you can buy in our country brand Steinmayer, but low price (less than 8000 EUR) for 186 cm long piano makes me wonder. What do you think? I never heard that you can buy such a long piano for such a low price. Are there any other brands (for my budget of course) that I should look after? Hailun for instance can not be bought in our country (Slovenia), at least I didn’t find it.

I also want to ask you on what should I be careful by purchasing a new piano. How can I know if it’s really new, I wouldn’t be surprised if salesman would try to sell me some hidden exhibit that looks like new. I know it sounds stupid but I already have such experiences (of course not with piano but with other few things). What is the normal praxis for dealers when they talk about the price: is this usually their final price or are they generally willing to negotiate for the price. I heard about serial numbers that can tell you where it was made. It this important by Kawai, is it made on different parts of the world? if so, which are the best?...

I know I wrote a lot but you have to understand this is a big project for me. I am writing it here because I believe that I will get very good advices from you. I consider you for much more valuable sources than dealers, all they want is just to sell pianos, of course after all this is their job. Not everyone, but I heard about the dealers that are not totally honest and I really don’t want to be mislead by someone.

Thanks, and sorry for my English.

GE30 is nice. Because the longer bass strings give better, clearer bass tone.

Kawai makes GM10 in Indonesia. All other grands are made in Japan. The serial number can also date the piano, giving you what year it was made.

When dealers talk about price, usually you have room to negociate a bit.

It is very understandable that this is a big project for you, and you don't want to get mislead. It is fun, frustrating at times, and tedious at worst, but you will most likely get an instrument that will last you, as you say, a lifetime.

Do look at some other brands other than Kawai. Secondhand is not so much a problem, but if you consider it, get a technician to check it out to avoid costly, complicated problems.

Keep us posted!

You can check out the brands here

http://www.pianobuyer.com/fall11/45.html

To make absolutely sure that a piano is new and/or has warranty, you can always call the company (e.g., Kawai directly) and give them the serial number to look up more information.

I bought a Kawai grand... kinda more than I need, but now that I have it, I can't dream of giving it up!

ZBGMO,

It is not because you are living in Slovenia you could not find any Hailun dealers, you will not find Hailun in Europe.

But you can find Wendl & Lung - the name soon to be changed into Feurich after the merger of W&L and Feurich. The till now called W&L range of pianos is manufactured at the Hailun factory in Ningbo.

Below links are soon to be updated:
Wendl & Lung

Feurich

Example of a dealer in Slovenia:
Silic Klavirji

schwammerl.

What about a lightly used Petrof? I am guessing they are not so very expensive since they are not so very far from you.

Digitals reallly do sound like digitals. It's an odd phenomenon really! Still, your digital can't be so bad. You're pretty excited about playing the piano and you're not dead.

Look! Your post indicates that you're pretty caught up in this whole business emotionally. You've got to take a deep breath and go slow. There's no urgency. The digital hasn't killed you. The pianos for sale aren't going to disappear.

When you bought the digital you bet 1200 EUR that you would like playing the piano. Now you're going to bet 10 times that amount that your interest will be lifelong. That's a lot of money. Keep your emotions under control and learn the specifics of why you like some pianos better than others and why you like one more than all the others. When you can clearly undertand and articulate this information, you'll be ready to buy, you will have forgotten the GM 10 completely, and you won't be much interested in others' preferences.

Petrof pianos are realtively expensive in Europe too. All grand, whether the old roman numbered series or the new series, in the size range the OP is looking for will at least be double the price he is prepared spending on a piano...unless the OP has access or would be interested in there lower line Asian built Weinbachs on which I cannnot comment.

schwammerl.

Thank you all for this informations. I appreciate this. I am sure that this informations will help me easier to make my decision.

Turandot: Maybe you are right, maybe I am also involved emotionally. But I also know that I prefer sound of acoustic piano much more. I also know that plastic key are becoming each day more shaky (I play at least 3h a day) and you can feel lateral movement while playing which is really not nice but much better that not playing at all. When playing loud (not very loud, let say approximately 60-70% of maximum) it sounds like all the tones are fighting to each other (it is difficult to explain), it is just something that is not good anymore for ears, is sounds like “noise”. Especially when I heard one of my acquaintances played acoustic piano – day and night. My piano sounds much better when you play it more quietly. The brand is Casio. But I respect your opinion, probably there are also emotions and therefore I am not planning to buy it tomorrow. I will go slow:) It will be stupid purchase something quick.

Thanks

I think you're misinterpreting my comments. I do not for a moment question your preference for acoustic pianos or your decision to buy one. I do not question your proposed budget. What I am telling you is that you should go about choosing at a relaxed pace and allow yourself the time to educate yourself to all the subtle differences among competing brands and models. IMO that's the best way to reach the best decision.

Sometimes people collect a bunch of recommendations here and then chase around after those recommendations rather than letting the piano market come to them through their own ears and fingers. That chase can makes things confusing and get in the way of making the choice that is best for you.

Emotions can also get in the way of noticing all those subtle differences. Emotions create urgency and can lead to rash decisions. If you take an organized unhurried approach, then your decision will be ruled by the knowledge you acquire and a logical understanding of what is best for you.

In coming from a digital, you need to be especially careful since all the acoustics you play may initially seem great when compared to your Casio. You want to get beyond that to the stage where you can compare them to each other.

My bad, I was reading to fast. I understand you well now and you are perfectly right.


I know already now that it will be difficult: hypothetically let’s say that I narrow my decision and that at the end there will only be two pianos left: GE 30 and Wendl & Lung 178. Prices are very similar, even more, Wendl is cheaper for about 500 EUR and it sounds better for ME (not to forget – hypothetically, I didn’t try any of those yet). Common sense will tell me : “Then buy Wendl & Lung”. But then immediately I predict that I WILL also have second thoughts, because the brand Wendl & Lung in not Kawai. There is just something in my mind that tells me that piano that was made in Japan (Kawai) should have better quality than piano made in China and that I should buy a piano with brand that is more respected and recognized and so on. I will probably believe that Kawai is better on the long run, maybe more durable (maybe wrong thinking)… We also have a term: “Chinese goods” which has negative meaning – and I personally don’t think anything bad but it just affects me. The brand is just something that does something emotional deep down in soul and it really affects your decision. … I will probably start asking myself why is Wendl so “cheap” but at the same time longer (178 cm) and produces better sound…I will start thinking something is not what it seems to be… And I am sure that Wendl & Lung is a good piano, I also heard that some professional pianists made a test and they said that Wendl is amazing piano (if I remember correct).

I hope you understand my “problem”…Brand can affect my decision and just don’t know what I would do in this case (fictional example: Kawai vs. Wendl & Lung). I know, maybe I complicate but I have to clear it up. I am just saying what is going on in my head:)

Thanks

Advices regd. the question "upright vs. babygrand" - and your opinion that going >160/165 cm would be no option:

These tiny Kawai grands coming from Indonesia can be (can..) a big fun! … compared with other baby grands. A young friend of mine owns one which he could buy as a used one in an italian restaurant near Dusseldorf, Germany for less than 3.500 EUR. Great piano - besides of the length missing.

So I recommend in general to take into account also used pianos/grands.. Much fun for less money.

A baby grand of 155-165cm normally has a smaller soundboard surface, less than a normal-size upright in the range of 120 to 125cm height. This is related to the necessary “hammer gap” which in a grand prevents usage of the whole inner space for soundboard surface. So tone volume and smoothness is quite limited in a babygrand.

So recommendation will always be to check if there isn’t a little bit more space to install a slightly longer grand of 180 to 190 cm.

Especially when bought used the longer ones are the cheaper ones: another disadvantage babygrand. (..and a disadvantage for a medium size grand, when a longer grand should go for sale.) Used baby grands are sold very well, a fact which I can only understand related to the “child factor” which seems to be estimated by women mainly…

Grands – regardless of length – have a much better playing mechanism compared with uprights. Since the very old “over damper” systems in upright pianos disappeared around 1900-1910 there no longer was such a smooth touch and feel in uprights compared with a normal grand mechanism (“double english repetition”, system Erard).

When your playing capabilites increase, you will really feel the difference. So I personally always plead for a grand - of medium (or even longer) size. My knowledge on these facts came very late in my life. I used over 30years a good old german upright, then changed to a grand. There is no real comparison. In nearly all musical regards a grand is simply the much better piano. It is dearer, it needs more space, but this is justified by the much better musical results which become possible by a grand only.

.... and, of course, don't forget the possibility of renting a piano.

i support turandot's post. An investment in your knowledge about pianos would be very wise.. no need to rush.

I too agree with Turandot (as usual!).

I would also suggest you spend a few hours reading Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer. It has a number of articles that would be invaluable to you.

BerndAB: thanks for all this explanation about upright vs. grand/baby grand . I said before that more than 165 cm is not an option because of the budged. But I think the space would allow me to put 20 cm longer piano in my room. Many people recommend the same as you: little longer piano 180-190 cm – better piano. I will also think about used pianos but I am more for a new one.

I will not rush, I will try to learn much as possible about pianos. I will take time.

I agree wholeheartedly with Apple and Steve.

Seriously, you have a good command of English. I think Larry Fine's Pianobuyer articles (specifically those written by him) would be very worthwhile for you.




This is a risk/reward hypothetical. It's a tough one because the Chinese piano is selling at only a 5% discount to the Japanese. In the US, the difference is far greater -- something like 30 or 40% on average. However one might assess the risk, the reward is more substantial than in your hypotethtical. If the Chinese makers who do business in the Us offered parallel pianos at only a 5% discount to the Japanese, the Chinese makers would have fewer customers.

Anyway, looking at your hypothetical as stated, the piano that you like more is the cheaper one, so there's no issue there. The question is how to address your legitimate concern about lack of track record and potential for shoddy manufacture.

This forum can be useful for that assessment. There are quite a few owners of Hailun-built pianos here on this forum. Some of them are pretty positive and vocal. There are members who own other Chinese pianos as well. Satisfaction level seems pretty good, in some cases more than that. Of course none of them have owned their pianos for all that long. It's impossible for the Chinese to compete with decades of Japanese product and service excellence at this time, but you don't want to wait 20 years to buy a piano.

I would personally address my concern directly through the retailer. I would look into his background and his technical expertise. I would find out how long he has been selling the brand and how committed he is to the representation. Shops can pick up a few Chinese instruments without much of a commitment. The relationship can end quickly too. The ideal situation would be the chance to learn how his piano placements are doing and how good his service is.

If you are really sold on the Chinese piano's touch and tone, you could hire an independent technician to come to the shop and assess its quality and state of prep. You'd have to have permission form the shop and you'd have to pay a fee to the tech. It's unusual to do this with a new piano, but it happens. You could also verify the warranty and born date through a serial number check with the company. You want to be careful of born date. If it's more than two years ago, it's possible that particular piano has been kicked around Europe from cancelling dealer to other dealers. You don't want that.

Another way to deal with the problem would be to try to beat down the price to the level where the discount overrides your concerns about the risk. I know you can't do as much price negotiation in Europe as you can in the US,, but you can do some.

Personally, I wouldn't pay much attention to magazine articles. I assume you're referring to the French magazine trial which gave high marks to W&L's 178. Those things are subjective assessments of a piano's capability at one moment in time, not over the long haul.

BTW, it's my understanding that no new W&L's are being supplied by Hailun and that W&L stock in Europe is being sold off. The new representation for Hailun in Europe is Feurich of Gunznhausen in Germany. If W&L is more than a hypothetical in your mind, you would want to look into how the W&L warranty would be handled going forward.

Have you looked for Brodmann and Ritmuller (if available)? Also good values made in China by Austrian and German parent companies. Might be a good alternative to W&L if the new Feurich relationship means warranty concerns (as turandot mentioned).

Hello,Kendra here.

*Edited by moderator*
Kendra, your post read too much like an advertizement, which is not allowed on the open forums.

Rickster

Thanks Turandot.

You have a point about commitment. As far as I know this dealer (I believe he is the only one in the country that imports Wendl & Lung ) just started to sell this brand. He has long tradition, but not with this brand. So it is pretty new to him and he probably doesn’t know how the business will be – not the whole business but with this particular brand. It is really difficult to say what will happen in the future, maybe next year he won’t represent it anymore, who knows… But if you look Kawai, most (almost everyone) of the dealers support this brand and I assume that they offer very good services (maintenance and so on) because they have decades of experiences with Kawai (strong commitment).

Gnuboi: I will check this two brands.

Thanks for Piano Buyer. I will read it. I really see that this forum is helpful.

Keep playing these two and perhaps other brands of pianos until you determine what you like about each (especially touch and tone over the various parts of the keyboard). It's not so much a matter of better or worse: both the W&L and the Kawai are good brands. I chose the Hailuln 178 over a Kawai RX2, but many others would make the opposite choice. Only you can ultimately determine what you prefer.

BTW, even if you make the "wrong" choice, either of these or similar instruments will undoubtedly please you for decades. So relax, take your time, and really explore the attributes of each instrument you audition.

Hop

And what might the "wrong" choice be Hop?
Are you speaking from personal experience with the choice you made?

Hop,

You give good advice in telling ZBGM0 to play the field and decide on the virtues of the pianos. However, some people would hold the view that a brand which seems to be on the verge of extinction is not a "good brand" to buy. I'm sure your assurance that either piano will "undoubtedly please you for decades" is well-intended, but I think ZBGM0 is looking for a different level of assurance.

ZBGM0.

If it does come down to these two and that W&L 178 is more than a hypothetical, you should take any concerns directly to that dealer. It's perfectly fair to ask him about his taking on a line that is apparently no longer in production. It is also perfectly reasonable to find out the born date and to seek written assurance from the retailer and from whoever is running the W&L operation at this point about how warranty terms will be handled going forward.

I'm not suggesting that you rule out that piano, just that you know exactly what you are getting into.

Some people are afraid of making choices that might be "wrong". Decision paralysis. I suspect Hop is only encouraging the OP to choose and begin enjoying a piano rather than remain in doubt.

I have a hard time making up my mind when it comes to spending a lot of money on nonessential items. I know that sounds like sacrilege to suggest that a piano is a nonessential item, but that is the case; it is indeed a luxury item.

Yet, when I get to the point of following through on a decision, or “pulling the trigger” as some put it (not sure I like that metaphor) my mind is usually made up for better or worse. I have suffered from buyer’s remorse a time or two, but not so much with pianos… more often with new vehicles.

I suppose I might be a piano salespersons worst nightmare… it takes me a while to finally pull out the check book. However, it is nice to feel really good about your piano buying decision. It’s quite a euphoric feeling when everything feels right…

Rick

That may be, but ZBGM0 is not you. if you read the thread, ZBGM0 is hardly paralyzed by fear or indecision. On the contrary, he needs to sort out what's available, find his groove, an then make a decision.

Oh, really? I thought we might be clones of each other.


Did I say ZBGMO was paralyzed by fear? Maybe you need to read the thread again, t-dot.


Great advice; that’s exactly what I did…

Rick

Rick,

I hate to break the news to you, but what you did here was post another installment of your autobiography. Maybe when you shopped, "that's exactly what I [you] did", but again, that would be your autobiography too, and the OP has an existence of his own.

Turandot, I’ve never known you to “hate” to break the news to anyone about anything here on PW. You speak your mind, no matter how cold or callous. Yet, you always have some interesting things to say and I like to read your thoughts and opinions.

As far as me having a habit of writing my autobiography of my piano shopping experiences here on PW, what’s wrong with that? I think I’ve read many of your own autobiographical episodes of your piano shopping experiences here. I think you’ve tried out and played more pianos than anyone else here, and I applaud you for that.

Are you trying to break the news to me that you think my comments, thoughts and opinions here are of no value or irrelevant and unrelated to this thread? Others have an opinion here besides you…

By-the-way, I’ve got plenty more piano related autobiography left to tell, so I have to tell it in short installments…

Oh, and ZBGMO, I apologize for this little distracting conversation between turandot and I; he thinks I’m trying to hijack your thread, steal your identity and become you… I can assure you that I’m not. I wish you the best in your piano shopping experiences.

Rick

Mercy!

Rick,

I actually enjoy your approach. You have a Will Rogers streak in your approach to pianos that is decidedly your own.

I just think that in the OP's case caution is advised due to his inexperience with acoustic pianos. You, OTOH, have bought several acoustic pianos, and are your own teacher for playing and servicing the instrument. I'm pretty sure you know all the ropes and all the tricks as well.

Let's drop it in the OP's interest. I wasn't trying to be cold and callous and (as a point of information) I've cut down drastically on showroom visits. The thrill is gone.

Sounds like a BB King blues tune!

I've never doubted your vast knowledge and experience with lots of painos, William. I appreciate you sharing it with us here on the PW forums...

My knowledge and experience is limited at best, but I still enjoy sharing my “autobiographical” piano stories here.

Rick

Hello,

I didn’t write anything new here for about a month and a half, that’s why my post will be little longer than usually. I will write EVERYTHING that is happening right now in my head.

P.S. thanks turandot for previous advices.

I was reading piano buyer (flash edition). I read it through (well, I skipped chapters like digital pianos and hybrids that are not important for me) and I have to say that Piano Buyer is very good book to read. Maybe I will read it again. Everyone should read it before purchasing first acoustic piano. I am also reading this forum a lot (search function). I realized how many information is here – many discussions about different brands. So what I am doing now is to try to get little more education about acoustic pianos.

And the most important news is that I tried few acoustic pianos. First impression, it is something completely different than digital, but of course…that shouldn’t be surprise:). But the most important thing that I discovered is that I can play things that are quite difficult for me to play on my keyboard. Reason is quite simple: stable keys. My shaky keys on my keyboard cause me difficult to play “jumps”. I didn’t even know that I can play such things so easy on real piano, so right now I feel kind a weird, because my playing abilities are actually limited due to my DP, which didn’t bothered me before, because I didn’t know that until I tried playing real one. Every time I sit in front my DP I realize that I could play things so much easier and effortless if I had real piano. I played about 5 pianos and among them there were also Kawai GE-20, GE-10 and Yamaha C2. Sadly there was no GE-30 and I don’t believe any dealer in our country has it in the store in this moment. Well, I did like GE-20 but I would like to have a little stronger bass. I expected that this pianos have stronger bass. GE-30 is 10 cm longer, so it is quite possible that GE-30 has a little better bass but like I said, it wasn’t there to try it. Maybe it will sound weird but I liked the sound of GE-20 more than the sound of C2. Even though C2 was twice the price of GE-20 (over 18.000 EUR vs. 9.800 EUR) I really liked more the mellow tone of Kawai, Yamaha is just to bright (“sharp”) for me. Playing Beethoven’s Moonlight Sonata (first m.) sounds so melancholic (the way I like). So I can imagine that GE-30, RX-1 and RX-2 also probably possess this mellow tone. There was only one thing that little bothered me by Kawai, heavy keys. It had the heaviest keys of all pianos that were in the saloon. I preferred Yamaha’s keys better but I liked Kawai tone much more. But I believe this will probably NOT be the problem because I just need to get used to the keys. For instance: after 1 hour of playing in the saloon, I went home and I already had a feeling that my keyboard is suddenly waaay to light (I didn’t prefer it anymore) and that I need heavier keys so it is probably just a matter of what you are used to. I believe I could quick adapt to heavier keys but I could never get use to a tone that I don’t prefer.

As far as Wendl&Lung is concerned: I already decided myself that I won’t buy the brand that will not exist anymore in the future. According to Piano Buyer the use of Wendl & Lung brand name will be discontinued. Would you buy a piano with a brand that will no more exist in the future? Probably not, value of the piano will also probably be very low after 10 years.

I was also thinking a lot about RX-1 (although it goes little over my budget). I discovered that comparison between GE-30 and RX-1 are very famous here is this forum, I probably read almost all the posts about comparison BUT I see that opinions are very different, it also depends on the year of discussion (correct me if I am wrong: GE-30 is today much closer to RX-1 than 10 years ago). Is it worth to pay about 1.500 to 2.000 EUR more? (rhetorical question). I will visit the dealer who has RX-1 very soon, but he doesn’t have GE-30 so I will probably never have a chance to play GE-30 and RX-1 side by side (in the same store), which means that it will be difficult to compare those two. So, if anyone else had this opportunity, I would like to hear the opinion (tone, touch). I was speaking with two dealers about GE-30 vs. RX-1 and of course they each claimed different things about the comparison. First said that there is no big difference, only the cabinet and some minor things (better material) that are not so important. When I ask him if RX-1 sound better than GE-30 he said that this is not the case. He claimed that it depends on individual piano, even more, he had also cases where GE-30 sounded better than RX-1, explanation was that it’s all in the wood, each piano (same model) can be different. The other dealer claimed something completely different, he said that RX-1 is way much better than GE-30. Well, he didn’t say the word “crap” (he used nice diplomatic language) but I believe he was basically trying to say that GE-30 is like nothing compared to RX-1 (which of course I don’t believe). He also said that duration of RX-1 is longer than GE-30 because it has much better materials. Is that true (duration)? I doubt.

I also spoke with another dealer that seemed quite honest. He is specialized for selling ONLY used pianos. I will also visit him in the next 2 weeks or so. He said that buying a small baby grand piano is waste of money (you pay only for a nice furniture – soundboard is to small, that’s why you can not expect that it will produce much better sound than upright piano) and that buying a 165 cm should be a minimum. Here is the point that was mentioned by BerndAB. That’s why I am taking into account also possibility of buying used piano. But I will buy used one only if this dealer can offer me a good deal with a good guarantee (we have only one dealer who sells many used pianos). It’s to risky to buy it from some XY owner with no guarantee, beside this, it is also hard to get decent used piano in our country, I was searching for used pianos on the internet and other sources but mostly you find only upright or 30-40 years old grand pianos that weren’t played for years or decades. I measured my room and I believe 180 cm can be no problem (I considered additional 70 cm for the seat), more than that can already be little tight. RX-2 (178 cm) would be awesome, I heard that RX-2 is one of the greatest pianos as far as price/performace curve is concerned. I will play RX-2 next month and I will see if it sounds much better than RX-1 (I hope the dealer will have both in the store). If it really is such a big difference, than I will also have to consider a bigger hole in my wallet (but for now my budget stays at 10-11 k).

One more very important question that I have to ask. When you buy new piano do you always buy THE ONE that you try in the store (exhibit) or do you order brand new that the dealer has to order it first. If most people always buy the one (exactly the same) that they try, then it means, that it is normal to buy an exhibit. It is hard to claim then that you are actually buying a new piano, because this piano can be easily in the store for a year and can be played a lot by piano shoppers who are trying out the pianos. Piano dealer told me that this is always the case, because you actually “risk” if you order a brand new piano (exactly the same model than the model form the store) that you didn’t try to play it yet. Reason is that the brand new piano can be much different from the one in the store, because each piano can have a little different tone, so it is possible that you prefer GE-30 from the store but you won’t like another GE-30 that you didn’t try it yet, because each is unique and has its own personality. Is that true? Well, I can easily understand that each Steinway is different and has its own personality because it is handmade. But as far as I know GE and normal RX series are one of those pianos where mass production is the case.

Thanks, I will write more about my experiences when I will try another few pianos that are waiting for me.

Since your post is SOOO incredibly long, I'll just mention some passing thoughts as I read:
- RX-1 shouldn't last longer than GE-20/30, but the materials differ slightly.
- RX-1 shouldn't always be much better sounding than GE
- RX-2's are Kawai's most popular model of grand piano.
- its not weird that you like the mellow sound of the Kawai more than the piano that costs two times more (C2). It is down to personal preference.
- if the keys are very heavy, you want to make sure that if you play for a long time, you are not hurting your hands. Some might say hurting a good for strength, but I think otherwise.
- if the keys are too heavy, you could getvit regulated by a tech.
- Lways play a piano before you buy, as individual pianos differ. Piano's coming from the factory don't sound as good (usually, but not always) because no in-shop prepping has been done, just the factory voicing (which in some cases isn't that bad).
- every piano will have its own personality, but the amount of variation that occurs will likely depend of the factory people and method of manufacture.

answer to the important question: YES, you do buy the "exhibit", as it is the one you tried, and you know what it sounds like.

Keep us posted, and good luck!

+1 on trying the RX-2.

You definitely want to buy the one from the floor. Even with a brand as consistent as Kawai, every piano has a personality all it's own. You want to buy the exact piano you fell in love with. Also, a piano out of the box needs some settling in time. It has to be prepped and tuned a few times over the course of several months. If you get a piano that's been on the floor a year or more, this has already happened.

For example, when I settled on the RX-2, there were 3 of them in the shop. A gloss black, satin black, and satin walnut. I loved the tone of the gloss black, the touch of the satin black, and the look of the walnut. I figured the tone and touch are way easier to change than the case, so I asked them to have a tech see if he can get the walnut one to play the same as the other two. He adjusted the let-off and gave it a fresh tuning, and it was perfect. It had also been on the floor 2 years, so it's all settled in and held it's first tuning for over 6 months. Now I get it tuned only once a year, and it doesn't even really need it then.

By the way- you like playing moonlight sonata? See if you can find a tuner who will tune your piano in a temperament from Beethoven's era. My tuner tuned mine in a "Valetti-Young" temperament. It gave my piano an even sweeter sound, that sounds particularly good for Beethoven sonatas. Moonlight sonata is one of my favorites too, and I like it even more with this temperament. Beethoven sure knew how to use the varying amounts of temper in the different keys. Surprisingly enough, it makes more modern pieces sound better, even ones with a lot of sharps and flats.

Hi ZBGMO,

When I was shopping I compared the GE 30, RX 1 and RX 2 after deciding that the Kawai sound was the tone I liked, much as you have. I bought a superior sounding GE 30 and 6 months later traded it for the RX 2 I was comparing it against. I never found the GE 30 lacking yet since this was probably the only time I would buy a new piano I decided to go ahead and trade for the RX 2 (satin cherry) while I could.

The GE 30 I bought sounded better than the RX 1 on the floor. Differences in pianos probably since the same tech was working on all 3. The RX 2 sounds quite similar with the better bass response as you would expect.

All 3 pianos performed more alike than differently at this dealership. They do have a firmer touch than what I was used to at the time (Baldwin Acrosonic Console) but the adjustment was rapid. At your age of 28 you should have no difficulty. The M III action is really nice and smooth. The differences in build are evident but a lot are cosmetic too. I think the GE 30 has the upgraded keys and slow close fall board. The GE 20 is not showing on the US Kawai website anymore. Has it been discontinued?

If you choose the GE 30 I don't think you have to feel like you settled for a lesser piano at all, only more budget friendly. You should get many many years of service from one.

The piano in the store is the one I would take home with me for all the reasons mentioned by Rotom.

Thank you all for the information you wrote. You (all three) answered me the questions that I was looking for, exactly what I needed to know.

I know it is way to early to say, but I already have a feeling that there will be only two scenarios:

1) I buy decent used piano 178+ cm (no matter which brand, sound and touch will be most important)

2) I buy new piano, and I assume that I will probably prefer Kawai’s mellow tone, which means I will stick with the GE-30, RX-1 and RX-2. Second scenario will be difficult, especially because there is a very big chance that I will not be able to compare them side by side. As far as I read, piano sound depends on size and shape of the room, walls (wallpaper, just wall, wood etc.), other objects around piano, temperature and many other things – comparison (tone) is then difficult if they are not all in the same room.

I would say either (1) find a used piano, less than 20 years old and little-played or (2) get the RX-2 with MIII action. The RX-2 is a heck of piano: wonderful sound and the new action is amazingly crisp and quick.

I would go with option (1) rather than a lesser Kawai, myself. You can get a 6' or greater grand from 1990-2000 for less than an RX-1, and the performance will be far more satisfying.

Someone mentioned used Petrof's (which would also have that darker tone you like), but the problem is that they're expensive where you live? Try a lightly used Estonia.

Slovenia. Problem with used pianos (in our country) is that I can’t just choose any model that I want but I can only choose what dealers have to offer. We don’t have a big piano-market. I believe there is only one dealer (more serious) in our country that also sells used pianos, he sells also Petrof, Yamaha, Young Chang, Astor and Seiler.
How would you rank Petrof and Estonia compared to Kawai? Is much higher price justified?

Problem of small market: for instance you want to buy used RX-2 (let say 5-10 years), but there is no guarantee that you will get one in time that you want. You might wait months or a year before finding one. It would be much easier if I lived in US. I will know more in the next 14 days, when I will visit this dealer with used pianos.

Few days ago, I played another few pianos. I played RX-1 and three used pianos. I didn’t like any of the used pianos. What can I say about RX-1? not much, because I couldn’t compare it with other similar pianos (baby grands), but I think I liked it more than the other 3 used pianos (even thought they were all 180-190 cm). Respect for the little RX-1. I even had a feeling that the bass of RX-1 was more powerful than the other three, but it was probably because it had darker tone. The tone of other three was so bright that even the bass sounded so “high”.

But there was one thing that bothered me like heck on RX-1. More than 50 % of the black keys were shaky (lateral movement) although piano was brand new (at least dealer said so). I don’t like this thing, actually I hate it. This is also one of the MAIN REASONS (besides tone and touch) that I am buying acoustic piano – to have quality, stable keys (no wobble). Is this normal? If it is, then I obviously have a problem, because this is something that is difficult for me to accept. But if I remember correct, GE-20 didn’t have shaky keys. This “phenomenon” drives me crazy I know this can affect my playing ability – it reminds me on my keyboard. I can understand that after a while keys can become shaky, but on a brand new one? Do you think that dealer was lying to me that the piano is brand new? Immediately after I tried piano, I called him and said that we are “interested” in purchase, but before that, we need serial number. He wondered a little bit why would I need it, but then said that he will tell us the number, but didn’t call back. Days are passing, nothing. 99 % of dealers would be excited if a customer becomes potential buyer, but not this one. The only reason that I can think of, is that he is afraid to tell me serial number, because he knows where will lead this.

Does your piano have shaky black keys, does this bother you? I am sure it can be “repaired” by technician, but it is probably not so cheap.

The issue with the keys should be able to be fixed by a tech quite easily, as part of action regulation. Myself, I've never played any Kawai grand or upright that had this issue. It could be because it is brand new, because there is a possibility that it has not been prepped for sale (tuning, voicing, regulating).

Regarding the serial number, when you try out pianos, you should really write down the serial numbers of all the pianos you like, and see how old they are. It's very useful (at least for me) .

Not sure what you mean by "shaky" black keys....

All real piano keys have to have some "play" (free motion) because they move up and down on the front key pins. There is not much up and down movement on the center pin (more pivoting like a seesaw motion), but the front pin, where you would notice movement, does have a lot of movement up and down; so, it has to have some side-side movement or it may be too tight, causing the keys to stick; this is actually more common on new pianos than the opposite (too loose).

There will be some side-to-side movement on the front key pin, which is what I think you are refering to when you say "shaky". Just how much is too much is a technical question that only a trained piano technician can determine.

Of course, this may not be what you are referring to at all...

Good luck!

Rick

I didn’t know it could be also because it’s brand new (not being prepared to sell). I learned something new. I thought shaky keys are mostly result of felt that is worn out.

It looked something like this (look at 2:34): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2e3kPzP5kU&feature=related

I think you are referring to key bushing. It should be firm enough for you not to notice but just loose enough for it to not feel rigid. Piano techs can re-bush keys back to the way they should be.

And no, new pianos do not have this problem. If you notice it right away as you are playing, then that's not good. You want to feel that there's a firm foundation beneath your fingers.

If it's not far, go back to the store and get the serial number yourself. Call your nearest Kawai representative about warranty status, etc.

It was weird for me too. I also know that this dealer already had this piano at least 1 month before I visited him (who knows for how long is in the store), so it would be little weird not to prepare it for sale, at least keys should be firm, but they were really loose: it was very similar like in the youtube video that I posted.

He still didn’t inform me about serial number and he must have pretty damn good reason. I suspect that this piano in one of those who went from one dealer to another but was never sold. So it is probably still “new” (never had owner), but must be few years old and probably played a lot in the stores. Maybe I am very wrong but intuition tells me so. It also had some dust around the keyboard.

I will not get the serial number myself because I am not interested anymore for this particular piano, this dealer is crazy: his RX-1 costs more than brand new RX-2 that you can buy from a dealer that is located only 50 km away.

One more thing: it would be awesome if I could get some conception about “normal” prices in our market (prices in EUR. I need to know what a “good” price for Kawai is. I read a lot but most of you always talk about USD prices which don’t help me a lot. The most important fact is that our prices are different that prices in USA – usually more expensive.

I've enjoyed reading your story, ZBGM0. I think you're going about this the right way: reading up, trying different pianos, sizing up sellers, looking for the deal that makes sense for you.

The one thing I haven't heard anyone say, is, who tunes and takes care of pianos in your country? A good piano tech can be a very good friend when you're searching for a good instrument, and is essential to keeping it in good tune and regulation.

I can't decide for you which piano you like best. I bought a Kawai RX, and have been happy with it. You might try the RX-2, if you haven't already. They are sturdy and durable, anyway--- I'm not surprised your Casio is wearing out if you're playing it three hours a day.

The serial number is in many places on a piano, some of them hidden and some in plain view. You can see it for yourself just by opening the lid and finding it on the frame. Kawai's website has a page http://www.kawaius-tsd.com/pages/serial_manudate.html where you can find the date of manufacture of a piano, if you have the serial number. Or you can contact them by e-mail to learn if the piano is new, has been sold before, or other information.

I love your enthusiasm... and I agree with others' advice to proceed methodically, and with good care. That way your energy will serve you, and not lead you to a hasty decision which will bring you grief. If you have to save up a bit more while you shop, well, so be it. You can play a good instrument for as long as fifty years, if you care for it.

ZBGM0, are you in any way bound to buy a piano in Slovenia? Why not look also across the borders for a suitable piano in the neighbouring countries Austria or Italy?
;-)

There should be a lot of piano dealers, and because Slovenia is a member of the European Union, and because the EURO is also currency in your country, there should be no import taxes et cetera. You should easily take profit of the common EU market.

Thanks Jeff: the sellers are normally also the tuners and technicians. In case they are not, then they have employee who works for them – so the service is always provided form the company where the piano was bought.

P.S.:I didn’t try RX-2 yet, but I will very soon.

BerndAB: I know, but there is one VERY important fact that you have to consider. Austria, Italy, Germany have much higher standard of living than our country, therefore higher purchasing power (average wage is probably about twice as high as our average wage). Simple rule of economy: Higher wages = higher demand = higher prices for different products (including pianos). I can give you an example for:

1) NEW pianos: for RX-2 in Austria (only 30 km away) you have to pay 16.777 EUR (22.794 USD), in our country you can get it without negotiation for 14.000 EUR (19.000 USD) – in case of paying with cash you get additional 5 % discount. Big difference. Another cost would be transport because the price normally does not include the transportation of piano to your country (most dealer offer free transport only within country where they sell pianos, which also means that first tuning will not be included in price). And off course, it is also time consuming and much more stressful, I would probably have to drive on different locations that are hundreds of kilometers away (driving whole day). There are also language barriers. Well, I can speak English and German but it is definitely harder to create such a nice relationship with the dealer if you are stranger, I would probably see the dealer only once (the first time and the last time) in my life. Having a good relation with the dealer is IMO very important (providing tuning, good services etc.).

2) USED pianos: I also called to Italy and ask the dealer about average prices for used pianos. 5-10 years old RX-2 is on average only about 2.500 EUR cheaper than a brand new one in our country, and of course there are also transportation costs + driving a lot (searching good piano for weeks or months) + costs for hiring technician (taking him with me in other country many times, not only once: I wouldn’t check just one piano and I wouldn’t search just one day). At the end you see that it’s not worth. If you consider all the facts, it can actually happen that slightly used piano in foreign country (considering the price + all other additions costs) can cost even more than brand new piano in our country.

I must tell you a story about the dealer that I found in a foreign country. Yes, prices are little higher but he has about 80 pianos on the floor which is good opportunity to compare different pianos side by side. It would take me about 3 hours of driving in one direction.

About 95 % pianos that he sells are Yamaha. The rest are Kawai. I told him (on the phone) that I will probably visit him and try out pianos but I also told him that I am more interested in Kawai due to mellower tone. I said that I don’t really like Yamaha’s bright tone and I am more into Kawai. Then he said that I am very wrong and that Yamaha is actually the piano with the mellower tone and that Kawai in usually the bright one. Wth? I told him that I tried few Kawai models and Yamaha models and that Kawai pianos always sounded more mellow. Again, he said that I am wrong, he said that Yamahas are known to have mellower tone then Kawai, he was basically trying to tell me that I have no clue what I am talking about (like I am stupid). He also said that most people that come to him always want Yamaha, nobody asks for Kawai, and anybody who buys Yamaha will never want to go back to Kawai (he repeated this at least three times)… and of course Yamaha has much more “beautiful” keys (of course Kawai has “ugly” keys)…and Yamaha’s keys are much better, Kawai’s keys are to heavy and I will never get used to it, nobody asks for heavy keys. And Kawai’s tone in only good for classical music, you will not be able to play anything else, because the sound is just not suitable for other music (I bet Yamaha’s tone is suitable for any kind of music). There was more, but I think I wrote enough… it just makes mi sick…

Another story. I called second dealer who sells Boston pianos. I asked if Boston is made by Kawai. His reaction was: “whaaaat, who told you this”? he wondered like there was something wrong with me, he said that Boston doesn’t have anything to do with (“poor”) Kawai, nothing at all (no need to say that Boston are of course better pianos), he explained that they just both use the same workroom for production of their pianos.

I wrote this because somebody started with threat about piano dealers = used car dealers. I agree.

Till now, I found only ONE dealer who didn’t lie to me.

Hi again, this time I really need your help.

I am just back from the store. I just played RX-2 today. Yes, it is great piano. Amazing.

There is a thing that really concerns me on RX-2. I read (few minutes ago) quite a few posts where people were describing some sort of problems with the bass tones: it is described as a ringing sound on the bass notes or bass ringing problem. Some described it as metallic ringing noise or ringing overtone. I read that many RX series had this issue. This was explained like some sort of error or issue whit Kawai manufacturer and not the settling,room or voicing issue. Many people described that they have few lower notes with “ringing” sound. I don’t really know how that “ringing” sounds but right now I am little afraid because I really like RX-2. I am afraid that I will discover this ringing after the purchase. Can you give me any advice how to detect this ringing already on the dealer’s floor. Is there any sample of this ringing, I would like to hear it. I also heard that Estonia had the same problems.

My question is: was this issue ever revealed? What was the reason? Did Kawai fixed this problem? I CAN NOT afford to buy the piano and then to get rid of it. It is just to expensive.

P.s.: I didn’t detect any weird noise when playing but I didn’t really check every single note to hear if everything is OK. I was just playing it.

Links:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/264654/1.html

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1162294/1.html

Weell, on the bright side, there are loads and loads of these piano's that don't have this problem. You only hear about the problems with the piano's that have the problem, and they are less common (it seems) than ones that don't have the problem.

There is no such thing as a perfect piano. It exists in your mind, but you can get very close to that ideal. You may have found it.

If you like the RX-2, I don't think it should be much of a problem. They are darn good pianos, with great sound and a great action.

If I were you, I wouldn't be discouraged. Think, "have I played a piano I like better than this one that I can afford?". If you like it a lot, and you can't detect problems at the moment, I wouldn't worry much.

As a side note. When I was trying out the C7 I now have, I didn't detect a ringing metallic bass tone that occurs with certain notes. I only started hearing it about 6 months after delivery. But it still sounds great. I am not discouraged. You shouldn't be either.

Looking forward to your decision!

I don’t feel qualified to address your concerns regarding the “ringing overtones”; however, I do know exactly what you are talking about.

Technical definitions aside, if I were you and I did happen to hear any such “over-tones” that concern me, I would not purchase that piano until the ringing overtone issues/voicing issues (if indeed there are any) have been resolved by the dealer. If the dealer says any concerns will be addressed or resolved after the sale, look else ware.

It is better to deal with buyer’s remorse on the pre-sale side rather than the post-sale side.

Good luck!

Rick

Thanks Rickster and Rotom.

Next time I will play three RX-2s. I will try all three and if I won’t detect any of the ringing (bell, metallic, etc.) notes I believe it will be justifiable to say “I’ll take it”.

There was an interesting thing. I was talking to independent tuner and technician and he said to me: “don’t buy smaller grand than RX-2”. He said that in his 20 years experiences he found smaller grand pianos more difficult to tune – he said they are “yelling”. I wonder if he had in his mind the same thing (“ringing” sound). If that is true than it can be possible that this issue can normally occur on smaller grand pianos, because the strings are short. Of course I have no idea, I am just thinking loud.

Nice to read your story. I too is 28 and just started with piano ( 12 months ) .

"I didn’t detect any weird noise when playing but I didn’t really check every single note to hear if everything is OK."

Well, there you are. Now you know what to do.

I don't think that many piano shoppers do try every key and every pedal and every moving part, and examine every surface--- but they should. And, play just for the sound and feeling as well. Shoo the floorwalker back to the office. Take notes and make recordings, writing the serial number of each instrument down for reference. Then come back another day and do it again (or at least some of it), eyes open and eyes closed. If the pianos are not tuned up and regulated properly, do not consider them. This is your job as a buyer, and if there is some unsatisfactory aspect (or some especially good one), it is your job and very much to your benefit to discover it before you make a commitment to purchase.

I have the RX-5 and have not had a problem with what you describe: "I read (few minutes ago) quite a few posts where people were describing some sort of problems with the bass tones: it is described as a ringing sound on the bass notes or bass ringing problem. Some described it as metallic ringing noise or ringing overtone. I read that many RX series had this issue. This was explained like some sort of error or issue whit Kawai manufacturer and not the settling,room or voicing issue. Many people described that they have few lower notes with “ringing” sound."

I have played, maybe, a half-dozen RX-2 models and had a good impression, but it's still your job to determine this for yourself. Certainly, I haven't played every RX in the world. Anyway, your own ears are unique.

If you choose one of the pianos on the floor, note down its serial number and check it again on delivery, to make sure there was no mix-up and that you got the one you picked out.

There is more, of course. Any new piano is going to have to settle in after transport, and will require several tunings and some adjustment of the action by a skilled technician to get it just right; the action will adapt itself over time according to your own touch. You may need to experiment with its placement in the room and with other elements such as carpets, furnishings, etc., to find the place it sounds best.

I'm wishing you the best of luck with it. Actually, I think you're already lucky to have found a dealer with three candidates on the floor to choose from.

Margaret0657: nice to see someone is like me:)

Jeff: thanks for you (long) post. Yes, I am lucky to have opportunity to try all three same models. Reason is quite simple: dealer said RX-2 is the best selling grand piano (on his floor). This is not the case with other models. RX-2 is the only model on the floor with more than 1 “sample”.

I believe chances that I get this “ringing” tone on all three are small. At least I hope so.

Sorry to bother you again, but I just have to: are you 100 % sure that I will able to detect »ringing« sound on the bass strings already on the dealer’s floor? Reading more and more stories causes me more fear. I am little afraid again, because I assume that many people didn’t notice this on the dealer’s floor and that most of them noticed this later. I am asking myself why they didn’t notice it on the floor before purchase. Two reasons that I can think of:

1) You don’t hear it quite easy, so you normally hear it when it’s to late (after the purchase). I hope this claim is false.

2) or you can hear it quite well but…. according to Jeff Clef: “I don't think that many piano shoppers do try every key and every pedal and every moving part, and examine every surface--- but they should«.

I hope only second (Jeff’s) explanation is the truth and not the first.

Will playing every single note (loud and quietly) on the dealer’s floor give me a guarantee to determinate whether this piano has “longitudinal harmonic problems” or not? This is VERY IMPORTANT question.

I am sorry to moan again, but it is my understanding that most of the people who bought piano with this “longitudinal harmonic problems” just couldn’t stand the piano anymore and they suffered like heck, they were thinking to get rid of it (and many did). I just can not relax, I am thinking more and more about this issue, which CAN NOT be fixed. It is in my head the whole day. Obviously such cases on RX are NOT rare and I have every reason to be worried. This can be potentially my worst nightmare. BTW: I am trying RX-2 tomorrow.

Reading posts like this totally discourage me, because there is already enough things in our life that we have to deal with and I really don’t want to experience this issue (which is to expensive).

Of course not.

Your own home's acoustics would be different. This could affect whether you hear it at the dealer's or not. In addition to the bass, other parts of the piano might sound different at home. For example, OldFingers found a part of his treble to be a bit louder and also bothersome than the rest. I find the break on mine to be a bit tubby and louder (probably voiceable to some extent), and it might have something to do with ceiling height; but otherwise I have no issues with my low bass or treble.

Basically there are no guarentees. To further build your confidence perhaps consider some sort of proposal to "borrow" the piano and set it up at home and not completely buy it until you are satisfied. You pay all the shipping, of course, if you should "return" the piano. This would be similar to the idea behind Hailun's program, which I think is already mentioned.

This is an excellent suggestion!

Rick

Here is the thing. I bought RX-2. I picked the one with the most warm, rich and beautiful sound. Even though they were the same model they each sounded little different. I am happy with it BUT…well YES, I have one note in the bass area with metallic ringing and one with buzzing sound. The first key has metallic ringing, the second is less metallic but has more buzzing sound (twangy) and maybe little different color (the tone doesn’t have full sound like others). I was trying it at the dealer’s floor but there was no ringing and I tried (many times) all 88 keys. Maybe I just didn’t hear when I was shopping, I don’t know.

Yes, I would hire a piano first but the first dealer didn’t offered this option, the second one had much higher prices and disadvantageous financial conditions when first hiring and then buying – It would cost to much.

Do I regret buying RX-2? For now, I am saying NO. I played almost every instrument within this price range that was available in our country to play and I can say FOR ME that it is impossible to get a better piano. The touch and the sound of RX-2 are for my taste extraordinary. It is just the best piano for this price range. If you want little better piano you have to pay MUCH more, and if you want to buy little cheaper piano, you will get much LESSER piano – at last this is the case in our country. For me RX-2 is definitely the winner, without any doubts. The best “price/what you get” ratio.

Back to the problem. I will talk only about the key that has metallic ringing. I am not concerned about the second with “buzzing” sound, because I heard that this issues are not rare and can be easily fixed. I don’t know what is the reason for this “ringing” and I also know that it is impossible that you could tell me the reason because there are numerous factors that can be responsible for this. The best way to describe it is “metallic ringing” or “metallic zing”, overtone. Sometimes I totally forget about it, but then there are moments that make me little frustrated…and then everything is OK again in my mind….but then again I feel bad. On the one hand I like my piano very much, but on the other hand this ringing little bothers me. I admit that I am quite confused right now.

Right now I am still optimistic that the problem can be fixed. I comfort myself with the fact that piano is brand new and that it needs to settle in new environment. It was manufactured on XX October 2011. The only regulation at the dealer’s floor was tuning, no other regulation has been done. I did have no choice, nobody will prepare here piano, we don’t live in US. Right now I am waiting for tuner to tune my piano again (I have to wait for a few weeks because the piano has to settle for a while) and then I will mention my problem. I hope voicing will help. Now I am asking myself what if voicing won’t help? Maybe the strings should be replaced, maybe the damper wire is the problem, who knows. What if dealer says that this is OK and that it’s only in my head? What should I do then? How can I get the best technician around here? Do you think I should write to Kawai then, can Kawai provide me skilled technician that lives around this area? I don’t want another piano because I really love this piano, I just want to fix it.

The bright side of this issue is that I am 99 % sure that this ringing is NOT faulty design of piano. After I discovered my issue, I went to a few dealers and tried many other pianos that were new on the floor. You are not going to believe. Suddenly I heard on all RX pianos this ringing, then I tried C2 and C3, they both had this ringing too. What is more, I tried Fazioli that costs about 5 times more than RX-2. First thinking was “wauu, man this piano is perfect” until I came to the lowest F# and then suddenly annoying riiiiiing riiiiing riiiiing. Like a bell. I was asking myself what on earth is happening. What is this? I heard also many Steinways has this thing. My assumption is that it is probably just part of how piano can sound in the lower register (but I hope it can be reduced with proper regulation). My Casio also has a ringing tone on the bass area and of course it is not acoustic piano, but I bet that ringing tone on Casio is probably because the tones were recorded from acoustic piano.

OK, I agree, this might be a proof that this is not faulty design, because I really doubt that every piano of those that I mentioned above had error, BUT I know one thing: I don’t really like this sound. I admit it is annoying. I don’t know what will happen, if this problem will not be fixed. Like I said, I am optimistic for now, but I also have to be honest with myself: I will probably NOT be able to live with it, because there is a voice that tells me: “ You paid a lot of money and now you have a ringing tone, ha ha, you screwed it up”. I forget for a while, but soon it comes back, especially when I play the piece where this tone comes to the expression (mood goes up and down). My mood goes down especially when I remember myself that there wasn’t even one single case with RX mentioned in this forum where this ringing was fixed. All original posters with this issue eventually ended posting. I bet they would write further and tell us the good news if the problem would be fixed.

There were many discussions about this ringing tone. MANY of you asked if somebody could record this ringing. I believe I found perfect example. You can all hear it once for all how the ringing tone actually sounds, at least my ringing tone sound very similar and the ringing tone of all other above mentioned pianos had the same “noise” so I assume that other owners (who had this issue) also had the same thing in their mind:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YWcVO9Mncw

it is on this Steinway played by Horowitz. Listen very carefully at 0:09, again at 0:28. I just hope you won’t say “I don’t hear it” because it is SO audible that it couldn’t be more. This is probably so called “metallic ringing” that most people complained about, at least I have this kind of metallic sound (maybe little less audible). This Horowitz’s Steinway is another proof that this is not faulty design. Do you think that one of the greatest virtuoso of all time would play on a defected piano? I don’t think so, but that really doesn’t matter. Problem is that it is annoying, no matter if the piano is defected or not.

Any advice will be very appreciated.

I can hear a particular timbre in the two places you indicate during Horowitz' performance. But it is totally within the range of what I think of as the sound palette of a big old grand piano. It's unfortunate that particular timbre sets off a negative reaction to your ears because it's not unusual at all, as you point out.

It's entirely possible that you will not find a piano totally devoid of that particular sound quality. Or if you do it might be a piano whose tone is just totally dead otherwise. I don't mean any insult by suggesting that you may in fact just not be comfortable with all the various sounds made a large piano, especially up close and personal in your particular room.

My own music room is so much livelier than the dealer's showroom (any dealer) that I'm having to adjust to all the various loud and/or harsh and/or unexpected timbres that I can encounter in my playing. I will say that in our house, the sound from even a few feet away just takes my breath away because its so rich and wonderful but from the my piano bench it edges over into "too much" from time to time. I'm accepting that my playing touch and my listening preferences will eventually accommodate the complexity of the piano's tone (which is helped by knowing it actually sounds awesome to anyone else listening).

Argh, its always that low F#. It happens on my piano too. Harsh, metallic ringing, i Get ya. It is the bottom wrapped bichord. I don't know why this happens, however. and kn my piano, it also happens with an G# and A# in the same octave. Weird.

Anyway, its great that you still like your new RX-2! Congratulations!!!

I have played several Tier 1 and Tier 2 piano makes that in my experience typically have some ringing notes in the lowest octave. Steinway D's I have heard in concert frequently have this sound.

If it's something that would bother you, you should test each bass note by playing it ff. I agree with Clef that, although they should, not many potential buyers test every note on the piano.

I had this bass ringing sound in my first grand and my tech was able to mostly correct it(on one string we tested)by ordering a special kind of bass string meant to deal with this situation.

Thank you Brent H, Rotom and pianoloverus. Your posts are encouraging.

I asked this question also on “Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum”.

I hope somebody will tell more about this thing.

I made a new thread about the ringing bass sound. I found that if you damp the duplexes, the ringing is reduced a lot. Anyway, good luck, and congratulations again on a fine piano!

Good to read that you have found your piano!
The things with pianos is this, they all have minor things, a ring a heavy key, a minor click in the morning. All these things are not perfect but it is what makes a piano organic, that is why it sounds/feels natural and beautiful. When you change a string it will sound different as it is from a different batch. Not nice, only when a string breakes this is the only option left to do. Not every tech is a good tech. Be aware....

I too am a perfectionist and after 4 (grand) pianos I have learned to love them for what they are; instruments... These perfection obsessions can be devastating, you can fall out of love before you know it!! Try to see the piano as your partner, maybe not 100% perfect but still you love em. (somedays more then the other)

Konzert Patrick,

After watching a technician take apart and fine-tune some of the action parts in our new grand piano, any temptation I might have entertained toward being a "perfectionist" piano owner is no longer a factor. There's so many parts working together it's a miracle any piano ever plays well...and no surprise that a piano playing nigh-perfectly today might not do as well next week, next month or next year.

The technician said that every piano will have a few things that aren't quite what we would wish them to be. He says his job is to eliminate the problems that the player can't stand, not every problem he could find if he looked hard enough. You can always find something else to work on or fiddle with.

That said, I think the Metallic Ringing Sound falls deeply into the category of things that ZBGM0 and Rotom can't stand!

Patrick, that's a good post

Hi,

I am happy to write you again. Ringing overtone disappeared, it was just a voicing issue. Technician fixed it with needling in a moment. Well, now I can finally say that I am very satisfied with my piano and I am 100 % sure I made the right decision. I am really glad that this process is behind me. I am just starting to understand how obsessed can people become if the piano is not what they want it to be (I read many posts on PW). I can perfectly understand: a lot of money, once (or twice) in a life time purchase, very high expectations, perfection etc., which of course doesn’t exist. Piano can be a dangerous thing to buy (unless you are very rich).

I just want to tell you that I am very satisfied with my piano:) It’s just perfect for me.

Thanks for helping me out with many informations that were very important for me when I was buying acoustic piano.

Glad it worked out for you, ZBGMO!

It's amazing what a little poke with a voicing needle will do!

Rick