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Joined: Jul 2011
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Hello, I am a beginning tuner, (taking the Potter course), and a piano teacher. I went to a new students house last week and told them they needed their piano tuned (they did). They said they just bought it and had a tuning coming to them. Fine. Let him do the free ones and I'll do the ones after that. This week I asked if they had scheduled the tuning. They said, " He came out and tuned it already." I went back and rechecked myself to make sure, and sure enough, there were quite a few unisons with beats in them, about 1 -2 seconds per beat. She said, "He was here for 40 minutes!" I told her that the best tuners I know do it in an hour and 15. I have never heard of anybody tuning a piano in 40 minutes. She told me to come back and tune it for her. (Money is not an issue for this client). I just wanted to get thoughts on the matter from the many of you who have more experience and are wiser than me in the ways of the hammer. (Check my thinking and make sure I am not doing something dumb.) Thanks
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Depending on the piano it takes me any where from 45 minutes to an hour to tune a piano. Sometimes a little less if it is one I maintain on a regular basis. Sometimes a little more if a pitch raise or some adjustments are needed.
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The time it takes is not, in itself, a measure of the quality of a tuning. Factory foremen have often observed that the quickest tuners produced the most solid tunings. Is it a brand new piano? How far below standard pitch was it when you first heard it? Did the tuner alter the pitch? How long after delivery was this tuning performed? Where is the nearest air conditioning duct? How close to a door or window? I'm not defending the tuner but a judgement has been made and a balanced view has to be held. It's something to do with walking a mile in the other fella's mocasins. By all means pile on in there and tune that piano. Bear in mind that all the hard work has probably been done by the store tuner. Be sure to go back a few days later and perform the same checks on your own work that you performed on the store tuners. Bear in mind, also, that, as a beginning tuner, you might just make it worse!!!! Then you will lose credibility in the eyes of your new client. which could leak over into your cred as a teacher. They might even have to call the original tuner back to correct your work. Piano dealers often give work to beginning tuners like yourself and the tuners are glad of the experience and work and contacts. It often doesn't pay much. Some dealers send out their pianos very solidly tuned at, or a little above standard pitch so that it is playable immediatly, others send them out below standard pitch expecting the tuner to raise the pitch and even make repairs on that first 'free' tuning. Could equally be a very experienced tuner who has relocated working under adverse circumstances. Was the neighbor mowing theIr lawn during the tuning? We don't know any of this, do you? Just being devils advocate. You could always call the tuner to return if everything is as bad as you are presenting it. 1 beat in 2 seconds. .....There are successful tuners who put that into an unison deliberately. I hired a tuner once who could tune beautiful clean unisons but never did. He developed a clientel that just loved his work. Did he know something I didn't?.... and still don't!!!!
Amanda Reckonwith Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England. "in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
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Many tuners who have tuned for many years can indeed tune in 40 minutes. I'm not saying this person did a good job or not, only that it can be done.
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Monaco: If you think you can do better, go ahead and find out!
Jeff Deutschle Part-Time Tuner Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
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Speed is not a judge of quality. The final outcome is the judge of quality. I know tuners that can tune a piano in 30-45 minutes, myself included and it sounds fine. I know other tuners that can't tune it any quicker than 2 hours with the same results and still others yet, that spend 3 hours. Then, I know other tuners that could spend all day long and it would still sound horrible no matter how many minutes or hours they spend. Training, practice, learning how to set pins, how to do it right and caring to do it right all makes a difference.
There are many, MANY factors involved in making a piano sound good but, in particular, besides the tuner, the piano itself. If, for example, it is a piece of crap, they are are worst pianos to not only get into tune, but, to keep in tune. Although, I know some high end pianos that also tune like crap too.
Jerry Groot RPT Piano Technicians Guild Grand Rapids, Michigan www.grootpiano.comWe love to play BF2.
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Some brands of pianos (in my experience, Baldwin and Yamaha grands) lend themselves to quick tuning. The way the pins and string rendering react, when I'm tuning those pianos, I get a feel after the first few tuning pins how far to overpull and how far to "set." Once that determination has been made, the rest of the tuning goes pretty quick, with the pins being set pretty much on the first try.
Other pianos, not so much, and there is quite a bit of nudging/back-and-forth.
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Yes, and too much nudging back and forth creates heat at the friction points which, after it has dissipated, will leave the string not quite where it was put.
Amanda Reckonwith Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England. "in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
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I agree with the above; the time spent is not necessarily an indicator of quality; only the final results are. Since it is a new piano, I can think of a few possibilities: It has very tight tuning pins and the person the piano store hired is underskilled and underpaid. Some piano dealers work like that. They go mostly for the lowest common denominator. I briefly worked for such a dealer over 30 years ago when I was new to my area. He always sold the cheapest pianos. A really good tuning on any of them was hardly possible but I always tried my best.
When I worked on the floor and took any more than a few moments to try to get a good unison, I would hear him call out from his desk, "Don't try to get 'em too perfect! Most people don't know no difference anyway (sic)."
He was a very old man on his way out of the business. He reminded me of the character, Willy Loman in Tennessee Williams play, The Death of a Salesman. Indeed, he son had turned against him ans screwed him over and when he died, nobody in the business even knew about it or went to the funeral. He constantly told me what not to do rather than what to do. He told me not to take too long, not to regulate anything and not to try to change the pitch. Even though virtually any piano in this area has always needed a pitch correction of some kind, he forbade me to tune any piano twice. He would tell me, "Just rough it over and get your money. She'll be satisfied. She don't want no big bill. If you take too long, she'll think you don't know what you're doing. (sic)."
Still, I persisted, of course and I didn't always succeed. One time I came into the store and the old guy barked at me, "Mrs. [Jones] called and said you had it all apart!" I replied that yes, it needed some other work. He barked back like a junk yard dog, "Well, DON'T take 'em all apart like that! She might think there is something WRONG with the piano! Now she says you had it all apart and now the keys are sticking and it was just fine before you tried to tear into it!"
This type of thing goes on anywhere and everywhere, so I would not be surprised if your student was a victim of that kind of syndrome. By all means, take over the situation and do the best you can and work at your own pace. Time efficiency will come with experience.
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I have been working on my speed over the last year and I can usually tune most quality pianos in 45-60 minutes. Then I go back over the unisons which usually takes another 10-15 minutes. So, my total time is almost always between 55-75 minutes. If I spend more than 75 minutes then either something is wrong with the piano or I'm having a bad day. (or both!)
I believe I can and will become faster - and recently read some great advice from a tech named Ron Nossaman, who advises listening to the "envelope" after key strikes for much shorter lengths of time. He believes that most tuners waste time listening for much too long between blows/adjustments to the pin. And that time really adds up with 230 strings.
When dealing with pianos that have old strings, rendering issues, excessive downbearing, capo or pinblock problems, etc. all bets are off.
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With new pianos, it often takes longer to tune them because the strings may not have been seated, or rendered over the bearing points. Pins have not been set. And most of them will need pitch adjustment after even a short period of time. People who do warranty tunings often do them as quickly as possible and get out of there, because stores normally don't pay much for that service, instead giving the tuner referrals and the right to keep the customer as a private client. When you put the hammer to the pin, IMHO, you should do right by the piano and the customer--and yourself. Every piano you tune is an advertisement for your skills.
Tuning a regular customer's piano typically takes me 45 minutes to an hour, with 30-45 minutes leftover for whatever else ails the piano.
Add 20 minutes for a pitch raise.
I agree with Mr. Nossaman about the envelope. It doesn't take long to hear a good unison, unless there are "false" beats. Add several minutes for a piano with a very "false" treble.
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I agree with Ron N about the envelope too. Far, far, to many tuners think they have to listen and listen and listen and listen and, well, you know... Before you know it, 2 hours just passed and the piano isn't any better than it would have been had they just wizzed through it. Our ears pick it up a lot faster than the ETD's do. That's one thing that ticks me off with them, waiting for the stupid thing to register the note. Today, I just tuned without it. Lowered pitch on my 1st piano by 1/4 tone, was done in 23 minutes exactly. The other 3, I tuned in 30 minutes each or less. The machine just slows me down.
Jerry Groot RPT Piano Technicians Guild Grand Rapids, Michigan www.grootpiano.comWe love to play BF2.
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Jerry, I don't have time to mess around with EDTs either, and I also tune at the point of attack. I feel it gives the best perspective when voicing as well as when tuning. Can't think of the name of the tuner from California who said, " The fastest way to tune a piano is to tune it twice".
"Imagine it in all its primatic colorings, its counterpart in our souls - our souls that are great pianos whose strings, of honey and of steel, the divisions of the rainbow set twanging, loosing on the air great novels of adventure!" - William Carlos Williams
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That's exactly true too. I ran over the pitch today, wizzing it down. The faster we correct pitch, the more time we have left over for the actual tuning... That's the mistake I see tuners making over and over again, trying to fine tune on the first pass and then wondering why they just can't get their speed up...
Jerry Groot RPT Piano Technicians Guild Grand Rapids, Michigan www.grootpiano.comWe love to play BF2.
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" The fastest way to tune a piano is to tune it twice"
I am so excited to try this!!
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" The fastest way to tune a piano is to tune it twice" It was the late George Defebaugh RPT who taught that in the lectures he gave. I first heard it in 1979 and it changed the way I approached tuning ever since. It applies to regulation and voicing as well. I have done any number of public performance (concert) tunings in as little as 30 minutes although most take 45-60. Only the most severe pitch changes (usually lowering rather than raising) take longer. Upon saying that, someone calculated the average time spent on each pin to tune 230 strings twice in 30 minutes. That comes out to 3.91 seconds per string. I replied that an average time is a bit misleading. There will always be strings that take a little more effort than others. After a pitch correction and during the second pass, many strings are right where they need to be. It does not take but a split second to determine that. I never go to a piano with the idea in mind that I am going to tune each string only once. I also don't start with the idea that it will take any set time but there are instances where the quicker I can get it done, the better. Often, at a regular in home tuning, the shorter the time it takes to actually tune the piano, the more time there is for other services. When I really do like to time myself is when I tune my own piano. I don't get paid for that, so I want it done as soon as I can get it done. I am very familiar with it and how it behaves, so I can really fly through it. 30 Minutes is not uncommon. Mostly professional pianists come by to play, so there is never any question about whether it's well done or not. It is always a broadcast quality tuning but never done just once.
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Many pianos I tune only need touch-up even after several years, so tuning twice is not necessary. Humidity is stable around the Bay Area.
Semipro Tech
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Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:34 PM
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Piano
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