Which piano would you take if you had a choice of handmade, not concert sized Japanese pianos of similar size comparatively? I ask this because there is lot of conversation in the past about (for example):
Yamaha C vs. S,
Kawai RX vs. Yamaha C
RX vs. Shigeru Kawai

But no discussion on Yamaha S vs. shigeru Kawai, only discussion on purchase options (I'm all for relatively straight answers usually, but interest/OT is always good ) I'm interested in your thoughts on this.

Rotom,

Would be interested to know too what the opinons are.

I know the S4 is a very fine instrument but I also know that a premium ('handmade') Yamaha is about 75% more (S4 vs C3) than a regular C series here and that Kawai can apparently make a premium ('handmade') grand for a much lower premium compared to their regular RX series (SK3 vs RX2 about 40 - 45% more).
And this is not to talk about the new Yamaha CF line where e.g. a CF4 is about 2.65 times the price of a C3 (you can get a Bösendorfer for this).

So either Yamaha's definition of a handmade grand must be quite different from Kawai's definition or they follow completely different pricing strategies.

schwammerl.

Rotom,

I have spent some time with each piano and they are both well thought out, well executed machines. If either speaks to you, do not hesitate to follow your desire.

However, I will add that in the range of these instruments, and sometimes for less, there are many other beautifully built small manufacturers that turn out some stellar product. You have been on PW long enough to know that this is the case.

Good luck in your search and please let us know what YOUR impressions of these pianos are, especially in comparison to what else is available for the price range.

I owned a C7E from '85 to '97 and then traded it in on the S6 which I kept until 2007 when I sold it to buy my D.

Looking back if I had it do over again, considering the price vs increased sound quality difference, I would have bought a newer C7 instead of the S6, or had a new set of hammers installed on my older C7E.

Don't get me wrong-the S6 was a terrific piano. It had a lot of hours on it but again, looking back, I don't feel the cost was justified. Maybe with the newer CF series that might be different-haven't played one of those yet though.

I think that a comparison of Shigeru to Yamaha S (or CF) is similar to a comparison
between Steinway and Fazioli or Bechstein--similar build quality but very different end result in sound and player experience.
Now if you are comparing only price, then Shigeru is the clear winner. I think Yamahas are overpriced. But that's my opinion. And if there are people willing to pay the price (which there are) then I guess they aren't overpriced to some. The question is though, whether or not consumers are paying for the name and the marketing or the actual instrument.

Dave,

Play some CF series Yamies. I am truly interested in your thoughts.

There is a particular reason that separates the Shigeru Kawai from the Yamaha S series. IMO although quite refined the Yamaha S series remains feeling and sounding like a comparable size Yamaha piano.

After the Piano Master Artisan is done prepping the Shigeru Kawai, each piano has a personality on its own. This is a rare characteristic in a piano; which is the ability of been modified in terms of touch or tonal quality and yet continue feeling natural, contrary to something that goes against the original design of the instrument. It is also a plus to have a group of dedicated specialists working on these pianos around the world.

Here is an example: In the past recent months we sold about 6 Shigeru Kawai, where five of the buyers (4 were not Asian by the way) were looking at a Bosendorfer; since our nearby Yamaha (1 mile) competitor became a Bosendorfer dealer.

Continuing with the story- the San Francisco Bay Area fortunately for the piano industry; holds a good amount of professionals that have had a piano education (this was the profile of the buyers in the story). What made the difference in these five cases was that we were able to adjust each Shigeru to the specific likes of those five buyers. In a consensus all the buyers felt that the Bosendorfer was a... good piano but in a way inflexible and peculiar. I think this is the case with many high-end piano manufacturers (not all); where in an effort to make an outstanding piano that separates from the rest, the instruments are "peculiar". You could say the same thing betweeen Steinway and Bosendorfer; I think we'll agree that Bosendorfer are consider "finer pianos than S&S" however S&S have more possibilities.

Am I saying that a Shigeru is a better piano than a Bosendorfer?
Actually yes!
Shigeru Kawai is a contemporary high-performance instrument built by an experienced piano manufacturer. This combination gives the edge to the Shigeru Kawai versus many other brands. The performance of the instrument is of the highest quality and, it is pricey but without falling into the category of unreasonable. It is hard to quantize performance and the fact that many high-end manufacturers over-inflate their prices in order to achieve prestige, hurts the credibility of the dealer and the brand itself because; many of these pianos end-up sold in the market for many tens of thousands below their retail price. Hard to believe that in this era where information travels fast some manufactures still operating under such an old approach to marketing.

I find the Shigeru Kawai sounds and feels like a regular Kawai more than the S series Yamaha sounds like a C series Yamaha. In both the Shigeru Kawai and the Yamaha S series, there is no mistaking their heritage, though. The Shigeru Kawai sounds and plays like a Kawai and the Yamaha S series sounds and plays like a Yamaha. If you like Kawais and Yamahas, this is a good thing. If not, I guess it is a bad thing.

Unfortunately this is the disadvantage you'll have as dealer Keith; you can't go to a Kawai dealer and ask them to prep the Shigeru Kawai to your specifications. In a way it leaves you out of the whole experience and virtues of the piano.

I think you are painting yourself into a corner here. As a dealer of Shigeru Kawais and Kawais, do you go to Yamaha dealers and have them prep S series Yamahas to your specifications?
I have heard and played several Shigeru Kawais prepared by Don Manino. I feel confidant in my observations, which actually have been quite positive about both Shigeru Kawais and S series Yamahas.
By the way, I very easily could call any one of several Shigeru Kawai dealers who are friends, and tell them I was coming to visit with the express purpose of trying their Shigeru Kawais. And they would happily prepare them to my specification which would be simply to be an excellent example of a Shigeru Kawai with no prep excuses.

I'm sorry Keith but could does not mean that you had and would does not mean that already has been done.

I think you are confuse and missing my point. Here you said: "simply to be an excellent example of a Shigeru" the point and the beauty of these pianos is that they can be personalized to your liking.
IMO for you to provide a more accurate an educated opinion you should have one of your Kawai dealer friends set a piano to your preferences and report back with your perspectives.




Well your thinking is wrong and I politely ask you avoid trying to portray me. I'm questioning your experience with the piano not who you are.

Kurtman,

I'm not trying to portray you in any way. I am glad for your post and your strongly expressed opinion that Shigeru Kawais are better than S class Yamahas.

I wrote that I easily could hear a Shigeru Kawai prepped by a Kawai dealer to my specification specifically because you wrote that as a dealer, I couldn't. It was in response to your statement.

And, you are right. I would be better educated about the performance of Shigeru Kawais if I spend more time with them. But, having spent quite a bit of time on various Shigeru Kawais prepped by Don Mannino, for whom I have a lot of respect, I do feel confidant in my observation of them at least in the sense that they are unmistakably a Kawai in terms of sound and touch.

I hope I am not coming off as disrespectful to you as I don't mean to be. I think it is great that you are so enthusiastic about your product and I respect that you clearly wrote your preferances of Shigeru Kawai to Yamaha and to Bosendorfer. Most dealers/salespeople here would skate around being that specific about preferences over competing brands. Good for you! Much more fun!

Now we just have to wait for a Yamaha Premium dealer to stand up for the S series so that we can have a balanced view!

schwammerl.

I think it's time for a little good humored fun... We are all Pros here. No Worries!

Monty Python: The Argument Clinic

It still makes me laugh today after 39 years when I saw it the first time!

Yeah, we'd better get that balanced view soon or we might see this thread locked!!

Yeah where's Mike Carr when you need him???

I'm still searching and felt in love with a SK-7, this unfortunately does not let me to open my ears for the other opportunities. I have been playing for a long time on Boeasendorfer, Hamburg Steinway and owned a Schweighoffer for a long time. Shigeru is something special I had a bias for bosi.

Don't get it what happened to me...

Shigeru Kawai, no contest. It looks, feels, and sounds like a premium instrument. While the Yamaha S has the potential to sound and feel as good, they look like your average Joe Yamaha. Why bother?

what about yamaha's CF series? such as the new CFX 9 foot grand? i believe the CF series is the flagship of yamaha, not the S series.

Having played several Shigeru Kawais and Yamaha S4 and 6 recently, I'd say that I prefer the S. Kawais, simply because I prefer their sound. I also don't feel that the Yamaha S series justify their price hike above the C series of the same size (the extra money would be better spent on a bigger piano IMO), whereas the S. Kawai do above the K. Kawai.

But in the end, it's down to personal preferences - if you prefer the brighter sound of the Yamahas, you'll probably feel that they are worth the price.

But if I had the choice, I'd go for a Bösendorfer or Blüthner or Steingraeber instead......

I had a C7 for many years and recently replaced it with a CF6 which I love although its tonality is different to any other Yamaha piano I've ever heard (way darker and more European). So I've moved the C7 to my music room to keep the classic Yamaha sound close by. I've played enough Shigeru Kawai's to know them well but I'm not sold on the tonality. Wonderful pianos in all other aspects they are certainly beautifully made.

Yamaha S series is absolutely beautiful piano, but I think Kawai Shigery in my opinion is better, touch and tone.

i played a yamaha C3 XA recently and was completely blown away. the XAs are inheriting some of the CF innovations. in fact i may travel some distance to try out the C6 XA, and if it has the same qualities as the C3XA with more bass i may well seriously consider purchasing one.

ps -- i really like the shigerus as well, but the XA was astounding.

how did the XA compare to your Mason?

the c3xa is 6'1", so it has 5" on my A, but my mason's bass holds its own against just about anything up to a mid 6' piano, IMHO. my mason's tone is bell like, very clear, where i would describe the xa as having more color, more natural overtones. i would say that my mason is not a shy piano, whereas the xa allowed me the luxury of easily achieving pianissimo and shaping the dynamics of a phrase with ease. the action on the xa, and even the key feel with yamaha's "ivorite", were excellent. it appears the XAs only come in that glossy black, and i much prefer the satin finish.

there's an ad for my A on pianoworld, btw... VERY attractive price for this meticulously maintained beauty.

I played a 7 foot Shigeru Kawai in Frisco, Texas three weeks ago. It is a nearly perfect piano. There were two other Shigerus in that store, various RXs and a Sauter grand. The particular 7 foot Shigeru was in a class by itself. In these matters, as we all know, it can come down to the particular piano at a particular moment in time. In this case, I believe I was able to play a great Shigeru shortly after KawaiDon finished his magical work on it.