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#1753655 - 09/16/11 03:57 PM "Enigma of Paris: Alkan, Chopin, and French-Jewish Romance"
pianojerome Offline
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Registered: 01/01/05
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Click here for the link

This sounds like a fascinating program, presented by an important new organization.

As a side note, I don't recall hearing Alkan's name until I joined this forum a few years ago, and it seems that his name has been coming up more and more just this year. I know that the "Alkan Revival" has been going on for decades, but I wonder if it really has picked up in recent years (perhaps thanks to youtube).
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#1753679 - 09/16/11 05:04 PM Re: "Enigma of Paris: Alkan, Chopin, and French-Jewish Romance" [Re: pianojerome]
Orange Soda King Offline
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Registered: 11/25/09
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Oh wow, he's performing the Aime-Moi from Trois Morceaux!!
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#1753729 - 09/16/11 06:51 PM Re: "Enigma of Paris: Alkan, Chopin, and French-Jewish Romance" [Re: pianojerome]
wr Online   content
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Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 5429
Originally Posted By: pianojerome
I know that the "Alkan Revival" has been going on for decades, but I wonder if it really has picked up in recent years (perhaps thanks to youtube).


Not only because of YouTube, but because of various music forums and groups on the internet like this one (as you noted), and probably most of all, because of the advent of sites with downloadable scores. I think this is probably also the case with Medtner, Szymanowski, and other important but neglected composers. People growing up in the digital/internet era likely have no idea how hard it was to actually get ones hands on the scores of some of those composers before the internet came along and changed everything.

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#1753816 - 09/16/11 09:16 PM Re: "Enigma of Paris: Alkan, Chopin, and French-Jewish Romance" [Re: Orange Soda King]
Goldberg Offline
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Registered: 02/08/03
Posts: 1190
Loc: U.S.
Originally Posted By: Orange Soda King
Oh wow, he's performing the Aime-Moi from Trois Morceaux!!


And a great rest of the program too!

I've seen him play the Symphony twice, now--quite an experience! The first time was in Aspen, just a month after I did a lecture-recital on it; needless to say, I was significantly humbled...haven't played it much since! It's astonishing to me how well he calls attention to the essential lyricism of Alkan's music, while also respecting the very tight, even classical framework of the pieces.

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#1753823 - 09/16/11 09:32 PM Re: "Enigma of Paris: Alkan, Chopin, and French-Jewish Romance" [Re: pianojerome]
Mark_C Offline
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Thanks for posting about this!
If it were near NY I'd probably be looking to go. But glad to know about it, and great that you're helping us be aware of it!

I first heard of Alkan from Harold Schonberg's book "The Great Pianists," and I wonder if that book might have been the thing that jump-started this whole thing. Of course someone a little older might know of something earlier that jump-started Schonberg into it. grin

Anyway, Schonberg gave basically equal time to Henselt (they share a chapter in the book), but Henselt never came close to getting jump-started from that.
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#1753835 - 09/16/11 10:02 PM Re: "Enigma of Paris: Alkan, Chopin, and French-Jewish Romance" [Re: Mark_C]
argerichfan Offline
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Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 7472
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: Mark_C

Anyway, Schonberg gave basically equal time to Henselt (they share a chapter in the book), but Henselt never came close to getting jump-started from that.

That's true, but -as pleasant as Henselt is (and I do like his music)- it's just not nearly as originally written or conceived as Alkan. He was a very conventional composer, hardly a claim one might make about Alkan.

Henselt certainly had a lovely melodic gift, not to mention an incredible command of the keyboard (cf the concerto, etudes and his spectacular take on Weber's Invitation), but ultimately IMO he just isn't in the same league.
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#1753848 - 09/16/11 10:27 PM Re: "Enigma of Paris: Alkan, Chopin, and French-Jewish Romance" [Re: pianojerome]
Ferdinand Offline
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Registered: 04/23/07
Posts: 718
Loc: California
The mission statement page for Pro Musica Hebraica mentions Charles and Robyn Krauthammer as co-founders. Is this the same Charles Krauthammer who writes a political commentary column for the Washington Post?

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#1753860 - 09/16/11 10:59 PM Re: "Enigma of Paris: Alkan, Chopin, and French-Jewish Romance" [Re: argerichfan]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Henselt certainly had a lovely melodic gift, not to mention an incredible command of the keyboard (cf the concerto, etudes and his spectacular take on Weber's Invitation), but ultimately IMO he just isn't in the same league.

That's basically what I meant. The point was that even if the book help jump-start Alkan, there was more to it.
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#1753861 - 09/16/11 11:00 PM Re: "Enigma of Paris: Alkan, Chopin, and French-Jewish Romance" [Re: Ferdinand]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ferdinand
The mission statement page for Pro Musica Hebraica mentions Charles and Robyn Krauthammer as co-founders. Is this the same Charles Krauthammer who writes a political commentary column for the Washington Post?

If we say yes, we risk getting into politics.... grin
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#1753864 - 09/16/11 11:26 PM Re: "Enigma of Paris: Alkan, Chopin, and French-Jewish Romance" [Re: Mark_C]
argerichfan Offline
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Registered: 11/15/06
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Ferdinand
The mission statement page for Pro Musica Hebraica mentions Charles and Robyn Krauthammer as co-founders. Is this the same Charles Krauthammer who writes a political commentary column for the Washington Post?

If we say yes, we risk getting into politics.... grin

Yeah, indeed. I'll grant that Charles Krauthammer is an articulate spokesperson for the conservatives (if that be possible, maybe Creationists do too), but I'll sign me off now. tired
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#1753876 - 09/17/11 12:01 AM Re: "Enigma of Paris: Alkan, Chopin, and French-Jewish Romance" [Re: argerichfan]
Damon Online   happy
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Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 4478
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Ferdinand
The mission statement page for Pro Musica Hebraica mentions Charles and Robyn Krauthammer as co-founders. Is this the same Charles Krauthammer who writes a political commentary column for the Washington Post?

If we say yes, we risk getting into politics.... grin

Yeah, indeed. I'll grant that Charles Krauthammer is an articulate spokesperson for the conservatives (if that be possible, maybe Creationists do too), but I'll sign me off now. tired


Much more articulate than any liberal. wink And yes, it is the same Charles Krauthammer.

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#1753877 - 09/17/11 12:03 AM Re: "Enigma of Paris: Alkan, Chopin, and French-Jewish Romance" [Re: Damon]
Mark_C Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
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Originally Posted By: Damon
Much more articulate than any liberal....

BTW, don't make the mistake of asking for a least-articulate contest, y'all might win that one. grin


Edited by Mark_C (09/17/11 12:12 AM)
Edit Reason: bad joke deleted; less-bad one left in :-)
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#1753881 - 09/17/11 12:19 AM Re: "Enigma of Paris: Alkan, Chopin, and French-Jewish Romance" [Re: Mark_C]
Damon Online   happy
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 4478
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Damon
Much more articulate than any liberal....

BTW, don't make the mistake of asking for a least-articulate contest, y'all might win that one. grin


Not as long as Al Sharpton is on your side.

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#1753884 - 09/17/11 12:23 AM Re: "Enigma of Paris: Alkan, Chopin, and French-Jewish Romance" [Re: Damon]
argerichfan Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 7472
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Damon
Much more articulate than any liberal....

BTW, don't make the mistake of asking for a least-articulate contest, y'all might win that one. grin


Not as long as Al Sharpton is on your side.

Or Michelle Bachmann or Rick Perry on your side? Come now, matey...

Outb4lock.
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#1753906 - 09/17/11 01:31 AM Re: "Enigma of Paris: Alkan, Chopin, and French-Jewish Romance" [Re: argerichfan]
Mark_C Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
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Uh oh, this thread is flirting with death.... ha

BTW, I wonder if Chopin and Liszt and those other dudes talked politics in that cafe in Paris (including Alkan if he went there, but from what we hear I'm not sure he hung out in cafes) -- y'know, the one where we see them talking in the movie.....
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#1753912 - 09/17/11 01:45 AM Re: "Enigma of Paris: Alkan, Chopin, and French-Jewish Romance" [Re: Mark_C]
argerichfan Offline
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Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 7472
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
y'know, the one where we see them talking in the movie.....

Impromptu perhaps? The worst movie I have ever seen. (Not quite: 2012 has that honour for sheer idiocy.) Glad that Hugh Grant went on to better roles!
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#1753918 - 09/17/11 01:53 AM Re: "Enigma of Paris: Alkan, Chopin, and French-Jewish Romance" [Re: argerichfan]
Mark_C Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
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Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
y'know, the one where we see them talking in the movie.....

Impromptu perhaps?....

I guess you're too young. ha

I meant "Song to Remember." Which isn't necessarily any less bad of a movie, but I love it. smile
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#1753919 - 09/17/11 02:00 AM Re: "Enigma of Paris: Alkan, Chopin, and French-Jewish Romance" [Re: argerichfan]
Mark_C Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
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Oh.....here you go! (Couldn't find any scene in that cafe.) grin

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#1753966 - 09/17/11 06:24 AM Re: "Enigma of Paris: Alkan, Chopin, and French-Jewish Romance" [Re: Orange Soda King]
madlovba3 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 60
Originally Posted By: Orange Soda King
Oh wow, he's performing the Aime-Moi from Trois Morceaux!!


It's quite surprising indeed! As far as I know, he has never performed any of Trois Morceaux in public, and did not know that he was gonna do it! I'm chuffed to bits laugh He also played Etude op. 76 No. 1 for the left hand alone few months ago, by the way, which is another piece he'd played only once before.

I hope this 2012 recital will be broadcast, I wonder how he would play Aime-Moi nowadays; a decade passed since his CD, and judging from he plays the Symphony quite differently now, I can't wait to hear him playing Trois Morceaux live! smile


Edited by madlovba3 (09/17/11 06:24 AM)

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#1753994 - 09/17/11 09:27 AM Re: "Enigma of Paris: Alkan, Chopin, and French-Jewish Romance" [Re: argerichfan]
Damon Online   happy
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 4478
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Damon
Much more articulate than any liberal....

BTW, don't make the mistake of asking for a least-articulate contest, y'all might win that one. grin


Not as long as Al Sharpton is on your side.

Or Michelle Bachmann or Rick Perry on your side? Come now, matey...

Outb4lock.


I don't think Bachmann is anywhere near as bad as Sharpton and Rick Perry is not on my side. Rick Perry's ideology is whatever he thinks will win at the moment. He's no conservative.

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#1755468 - 09/19/11 04:37 PM Re: "Enigma of Paris: Alkan, Chopin, and French-Jewish Romance" [Re: pianojerome]
Frito Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/09/11
Posts: 94
Loc: Eastern US
Alkan was completely unfamiliar to me until I saw this thread. I listened to some of his excellent works on YouTube and looked up his biography in Wikipedia. Was very surprised to hear of his relationship with Chopin and Liszt, since both of them were apparently quite anti-Semitic.

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#1755475 - 09/19/11 04:41 PM Re: "Enigma of Paris: Alkan, Chopin, and French-Jewish Romance" [Re: Frito]
Mark_C Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
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About the "anti-Semitic" (and BTW I didn't know about Liszt): Maybe it's my pro-Chopin bias, but I don't take that too seriously. I write it off to having been just sort of a reflex thought of the time, without any deep feeling and certainly (IMO) without malice. We might even say that his friendship with Alkan (and maybe also his relationship with the Rothschilds) shows that.
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#1755479 - 09/19/11 04:52 PM Re: "Enigma of Paris: Alkan, Chopin, and French-Jewish Romance" [Re: Mark_C]
Frito Offline
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Registered: 05/09/11
Posts: 94
Loc: Eastern US
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
About the "anti-Semitic" (and BTW I didn't know about Liszt): Maybe it's my pro-Chopin bias, but I don't take that too seriously. I write it off to having been just sort of a reflex thought of the time, without any deep feeling and certainly (IMO) without malice. We might even say that his friendship with Alkan (and maybe also his relationship with the Rothschilds) shows that.

Regarding Liszt- Some day you might want to read his book Gypsies in Music. The virulence of the anti-Semitism expressed in that book rivals even Wagner.

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#1755482 - 09/19/11 04:55 PM Re: "Enigma of Paris: Alkan, Chopin, and French-Jewish Romance" [Re: pianojerome]
argerichfan Offline
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Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 7472
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
I've read from several sources that Chopin was anti-Semitic, but as Mark indicates above, casual anti-Semitism was almost 'fashionable' at the time, and unlike say, Wagner, Chopin's alleged a-S wasn't all consuming.

Liszt is a different matter. In Alan Walker's definitive 3 volume bio of Liszt, he goes to considerable length to demonstrate that Liszt was not anti-Semitic at all. And with what we know about Liszt's generosity, I'm inclined to accept Walker at his word.

Edit: it has been a while since I've read the Walker bio, but I recall he did address the issue of 'Gypsies in Music', and had solid evidence that it was ghosted.



Edited by argerichfan (09/19/11 04:59 PM)
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#1755509 - 09/19/11 05:34 PM Re: "Enigma of Paris: Alkan, Chopin, and French-Jewish Romance" [Re: argerichfan]
Mark_C Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 14778
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
....it has been a while since I've read the Walker bio, but I recall he did address the issue of 'Gypsies in Music', and had solid evidence that it was ghosted.

That's not the only thing "by" Liszt that might not be. There is said to be real doubt about how much of his bio of Chopin he actually wrote. If I remember right, the main suspect for actual author (for some or all of it) is Marie d'Agoult. (Had to look her up to get the spelling. Don't ask me how to pronounce it.) grin
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#1755511 - 09/19/11 05:38 PM Re: "Enigma of Paris: Alkan, Chopin, and French-Jewish Romance" [Re: Mark_C]
TheHappyMoron Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/10
Posts: 984
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
(Had to look her up to get the spelling. Don't ask me how to pronounce it.) grin


It's pronounced Marie d'Agoult
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#1755557 - 09/19/11 06:33 PM Re: "Enigma of Paris: Alkan, Chopin, and French-Jewish Romance" [Re: argerichfan]
Frito Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/09/11
Posts: 94
Loc: Eastern US
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Liszt is a different matter. In Alan Walker's definitive 3 volume bio of Liszt, he goes to considerable length to demonstrate that Liszt was not anti-Semitic at all. And with what we know about Liszt's generosity, I'm inclined to accept Walker at his word.

Edit: it has been a while since I've read the Walker bio, but I recall he did address the issue of 'Gypsies in Music', and had solid evidence that it was ghosted.


If this is the case, I feel much better. I was absolutely scandalized by reading "Gypsies in Music" which was extremely anti-Semitic and also racist.

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#1755596 - 09/19/11 07:41 PM Re: "Enigma of Paris: Alkan, Chopin, and French-Jewish Romance" [Re: TheHappyMoron]
Mark_C Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 14778
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: TheCannibalHaddock
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
(Had to look her up to get the spelling. Don't ask me how to pronounce it.) grin

It's pronounced Marie d'Agoult

Thank you!!! ha
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#1758059 - 09/23/11 03:29 PM Re: "Enigma of Paris: Alkan, Chopin, and French-Jewish Romance" [Re: Mark_C]
TheHappyMoron Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/10
Posts: 984
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: TheCannibalHaddock
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
(Had to look her up to get the spelling. Don't ask me how to pronounce it.) grin

It's pronounced Marie d'Agoult

Thank you!!! ha


You're welcome. Always happy to help. grin
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#1758083 - 09/23/11 04:08 PM Re: "Enigma of Paris: Alkan, Chopin, and French-Jewish Romance" [Re: Frito]
daro Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/09/07
Posts: 157
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Originally Posted By: Frito
Originally Posted By: argerichfan

Edit: it has been a while since I've read the Walker bio, but I recall he did address the issue of 'Gypsies in Music', and had solid evidence that it was ghosted.

If this is the case, I feel much better. I was absolutely scandalized by reading "Gypsies in Music" which was extremely anti-Semitic and also racist.


Liszt first wrote "Gypsies" when he was working on the Hungarian Rhapsodies, since he didn't expect them to be popular and wanted to provide some background (he was, as it turns out, completely wrong about the origin of the music, but that's a different story). Much later, around 1880, he decided to provide some updated material on the musicians that he talked about, and he sent the proofs to his ex, Princess Carolyne Wittgenstein to review. Unknown to Liszt, she decided to help him out by adding around 100 pages of that sick, vomitous garbage to which you refer, and then went and had it published without Liszt's knowledge.

He was as horrified by it as was the rest of Europe, but he felt that it would be ungentlemanly to point the finger at Carolyne. Liszt's friends knew he hadn't written it, and Wagner thought the whole thing was hilarious. He and Cosima, though, were somewhat disgusted that Liszt took the blame, since they hated Carolyne about as much as they hated Jews, which prompted his famous remark to Cosima, "Your father goes to his ruin out of pure chivalry."

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