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#1753900 - 09/17/11 01:01 AM Remove dust from piano
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1543
Loc: KZ
I always remove dust from piano. I think this procedure necessary for full-fledged work.The Sounds after removing of dust gain the bright colouration. What do you think about it? It is Necessary take the additional payment with client or this procedure must be a firm rule for tuner?
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A=440
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#1753935 - 09/17/11 04:04 AM Re: Remove dust from piano [Re: Maximillyan]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3360
Piano owners should due their due diligence to minimize the need for piano cleaning by keeping their pianos closed. I keep mine closed all the time, unless I'm using it, and over 10 years after its restoration, the piano still looks brand new inside. As a field technician, this is something I'd badger my clients about.

That said, I was taught by my mentor that techs provide "piano service", not "piano tuning"; so, I was frequently on piano cleaning duty with the Spurlock soundboard cleaners, a paintbrush, a really awesome shop-vac, and McLube. This is part of the job.
_________________________
B.Mus. Piano Performance 2009
M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
Certified Dampp-Chaser installer

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#1753968 - 09/17/11 06:36 AM Re: Remove dust from piano [Re: Maximillyan]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
I use a shop vac and Spurlock soundboard cleaners when necessary. And I charge for it!
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1754035 - 09/17/11 10:46 AM Re: Remove dust from piano [Re: Maximillyan]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3293
Loc: Madison, WI USA
This subject has come up before and not too long ago. It seems to me that most (but certainly not all) technicians neglect this duty. It is apparently someone else's job or one that can wait time after time until it becomes a big job. When it becomes a big job, there seem to be many that proudly proclaim, "I charge for that".

I have more grand pianos in my clientele than verticals. When I go to service a grand piano, I always bring in the vacuum cleaner and blow out the few wisps of dust and lint that have collected since the last time I was there. It usually takes about 30 seconds, so it is a normal part of my service for which I don't charge anything extra. Naturally, when the service requires removal and replacement of the action for which there would be an additional charge, I also clean the action cavity and the action itself. The cleaning fee is built into that charge and it is still a minimal task.

All of the grand pianos in my regular service clientele are therefore clean appearing at all times. Even the older ones that have built up patina are free of accumulated dust. I also clean inside vertical pianos when it appears necessary. If I need to do anything that involves lifting out the keys, the keybed is vacuumed and that kind of cleaning is built into the price for such services.

Last week, however, I had a new client who had just moved to the area with a grand piano. I brought in my vacuum cleaner as usual. The lady had come out to meet me at my car. As I took my tools, I said that I was bringing in my vacuum cleaner because cleaning grand pianos is a normal part of my service. "Oh good", she said, "Mine really needs it!"

When I got to the piano, I could hardly believe what I saw. There was a thick layer of fine dust that coated everything. The piano needed a thorough tuning with pitch correction and fine tuning. It also needed some hammer alignment and capstan adjustment. If there had been the usual amount of dust I find, I could have removed the action, done the spacing, flange tightening and capstan adjustment and vacuumed and blown away the dust as usual. I may have even had time to file the hammers and clean up the residue.

Sadly, I could do none of those extra services at that time. I told her, "This is a case of a piano that is too dirty to clean". It had been apparently neglected by the technicians who had previously tuned it. I had to make another appointment for nearly a month later when I would have a half day to do what I normally would get done in about 30 minutes extra time. I told her I would certainly be able to make a remarkable difference in the appearance and playability of the piano but when a piano has such deeply embedded dust as this one had, it is impossible to remove all traces of it.

Cleaning it will certainly be a big deal. I will not only clean out the piano but also clean the floor after I clean it out and the exterior too. I'll have to wear goggles and a dust mask. It will cost her twice what I normally charge for a regular piano service after she has already paid for a regular piano service. I told her however, that if she keeps me as the technician thereafter, she will never need to pay for having the piano cleaned again and it will be cleaned each time I tune and otherwise service it.

So, I wonder. Why did this piano get to this point when she says that she has had it tuned regularly the entire time she has owned it? Whose job was it to clean the piano if not the technician's? How dirty did it have to get before it was obvious that it needed cleaning? At what point did it get past the point where anyone would clean it as a normal part of piano service? Why (as the lady told me) did no technician she had ever used before even mention cleaning as part of regular piano service? Why was I the only one who ever did?
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1754044 - 09/17/11 10:57 AM Re: Remove dust from piano [Re: Maximillyan]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Nothing wrong with charging for what we do, Bill. If I recommend a service that the customer declines (such as cleaning), I don't do it. Now, do I include extras as part of my service? Sure! Adjust pedals, no problem. A few sticky keys? Gotcha covered. Couple letoff button or damper adjustments? Included.

But if I'm going to lug a shop Vac into the house, bring in the Spurlock tools, pull the action and clean/vacuum (which btw takes 30 minutes start to finish, not 30 seconds), then yes, an additional fee is both fair and reasonable.
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1754074 - 09/17/11 12:20 PM Re: Remove dust from piano [Re: Loren D]
RPD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/07/05
Posts: 961
Loc: Kalamazoo Michigan
Originally Posted By: Loren D


But if I'm going to lug a shop Vac into the house, bring in the Spurlock tools, pull the action and clean/vacuum (which btw takes 30 minutes start to finish, not 30 seconds), then yes, an additional fee is both fair and reasonable.


We charge for deep cleaning on a grand (double tuning fee usually, and I'm making a seperate appointment for that normally), but minor surface vac is part of the service but I always ask the clinet to provide a hose vac if they have it...saves me dragging my vac unit into the home...but interestingly, sometimes producing a cleaned piano is THE thing that keeps clients happy...

FWIW

RPD

EDIT: PS, I typically hope to do the deep cleaning service along with an action pull/lube clean...which means if the piano needs alot of attention, I'll work cleaning into the mix...for instance, if we're installing a full Dampp Chaser system, I'm either comping the work or if its really bad, we'll do it for a minor charge at the same time we're installing equipment for himidity.


Edited by RPD (09/17/11 12:21 PM)
_________________________
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Member AMICA (Automated Musical Instruments Collector's Association)
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Piano-Tuner-Rebuilder/Musician www.actionpianoservice.com

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#1754110 - 09/17/11 02:17 PM Re: Remove dust from piano [Re: Maximillyan]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21826
Loc: Oakland
I clean under the strings using a rag with a string tied to it. I push it under the strings using a strip of plastic, actually, key front material. It will clean anything, and I can take the rag outside and shake it out, rather than blowing it around with a vacuum.
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Semipro Tech

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#1754214 - 09/17/11 06:21 PM Re: Remove dust from piano [Re: Maximillyan]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3293
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Just so everybody understands, cleaning for me is not always complimentary. I tuned a Steinway B this morning and even though I had cleaned it last time I tuned it which was some time last year, it was dirty enough and key pin holes were a bit tight, so I pulled the action, cleaned the action and cavity completely, blew out the dust and wiped all surfaces as well. Yes, I charged extra for it.

The vacuum I use fits right on my shoulder along with my tool bag. Even if I have to park my car a fair distance away, I can comfortably walk with both the tool bag and vacuum from parking ramps or on another street, etc.

If all one does is wipe the soundboard, all of the dust that can't be reached is still there and accumulates over time. If the piano has a string cover, it does cut down on accumulated dust but if the piano is never cleaned because of the string cover excuse, a big surprise will come when it is eventually done.

Generally, I do not "blow dust around" or raise "huge clouds of dust" as some have claimed as a reason not to clean. The pianos I service don't have enough dust in them to ever create such a problem. When the exception comes along such as with the piano last week, I prepare the customer for what the cleaning project will involve and I rarely have any resistance to that, only a "Oh, that's all right. I want the piano cleaned. Do what you have to" or something along those lines.

Of course, if the technician balks at keeping the piano clean and says something like, "Oh well, I'd have to lug in this big shop vac and blow dust all around the room and charge a triple fee for it, so you wouldn't want that, would you?", then I can see how most people would say no. I just do it for the most part and my customers are appreciative of it.

Actually, I would say that more of my customers, upon completion of the tuning then ask, "What about that dust?" and I say, "I was just about to clean it. I have my vacuum right here to do that" than I ever have someone decline to have the piano tuned. I wonder why it seems to be different for me than nearly any other technician?
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1754252 - 09/17/11 07:35 PM Re: Remove dust from piano [Re: Maximillyan]
JohnSprung Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/02/11
Posts: 1570
Loc: Reseda, California
I clean my own piano. Why pay an expert to do menial work? My tuner/technician likes it.
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-- J.S.

Knabe Grand # 10927
Yamaha CP33
Kawai FS690

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#1754259 - 09/17/11 07:45 PM Re: Remove dust from piano [Re: Maximillyan]
Jonathan Alford Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/10/11
Posts: 369
Loc: Colorado
We clean ours also.

Just had a tech our this week (his first time looking at our piano) and he said it was the cleanest piano he has ever worked on!

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#1754374 - 09/17/11 11:35 PM Re: Remove dust from piano [Re: Loren D]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1543
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Spurlock tools,

What is "Spurlock tools" ?
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1754380 - 09/17/11 11:46 PM Re: Remove dust from piano [Re: Maximillyan]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21826
Loc: Oakland
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1754384 - 09/17/11 11:49 PM Re: Remove dust from piano [Re: Maximillyan]
accordeur Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1223
Loc: Québec, Canada
_________________________
Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca

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#1754392 - 09/18/11 12:09 AM Re: Remove dust from piano [Re: Maximillyan]
Dave B Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 1974
Loc: Philadelphia area
A few of my customers have made their own string covers and they work great. Customers usually ask me how to clean the piano. So I just show them. When I file the hammers, I will vacuum the inside.

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#1754395 - 09/18/11 12:14 AM Re: Remove dust from piano [Re: accordeur]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1543
Loc: KZ
Thanks accordeur for explanation, I am understood.I usually lay cotton rag under grand piano's strings and move rag wooden walking stick it from sides aside
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1754411 - 09/18/11 12:45 AM Re: Remove dust from piano [Re: Maximillyan]
accordeur Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1223
Loc: Québec, Canada
BDB made me realize, so thank him also.

I sent you the link because I believed you would not be able to navigate the site.

I use many of Mr. Spurlock's jigs.

They work really well, from hammer tapering jig to the damper mitre box, key bushing system, key clamps, etc...

I don't know what would be the cost for you to get a few of these and a good supply of protek and whatever other supplies you need.

Let me know.

All the best.
_________________________
Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca

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#1754799 - 09/18/11 04:36 PM Re: Remove dust from piano [Re: Maximillyan]
JeanieA Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 512
Loc: Reno, Nevada
I would LOVE to get at the dust on my soundboard but I'm really afraid of breaking something.

I'll be honest; poking something between or under all those strings under all that tension . . . brrrrrr! Scary stuff to me. Am I being unreasonably apprehensive? If I proceed very carefully, and with the correct tools, is there really anything to be overly concerned about? I would probably clean just before my next tuning, which will be soon, but is there a strong chance of knocking the piano out of tune while dusting the soundboard?

We live in a very dusty part of the country, so just keeping the lid closed won't do it for me, although it helps. My china cabinet gets dusty inside, and that's got a tight-fitting door that's rarely opened, the piano isn't sealed half as well as that. I'd really like the piano's insides dusted, and waiting for the twice-a-year tech visit is too far between cleanings for my taste.
_________________________
Collector of sheet music I can't play.

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#1754812 - 09/18/11 04:54 PM Re: Remove dust from piano [Re: Maximillyan]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
I've told customers to get those little cans of compressed air used for blowing out computer keyboards, etc. Using short bursts, blow the dust to the bass string side of the piano, where there is no plate. Then they can vacuum it.
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1754857 - 09/18/11 05:56 PM Re: Remove dust from piano [Re: Loren D]
Johnkie Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/11
Posts: 737
Loc: England
Yep ... this gets my vote - and for all the places you can get at, just use a hoover with the nozzle attachment to suck up the dust whilst brushing with a good quality 2 inch paint brush. wink
_________________________
Concert Tuner & Technician for the past 49 years in the United Kingdom
and Member of the Pianoforte Tuners' Association (London)
www.jphillipspianoservices.freeindex.co.uk : E-mail jophillips06@aol.com

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#1754903 - 09/18/11 07:36 PM Re: Remove dust from piano [Re: Johnkie]
wayne walker Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/08
Posts: 515
Loc: Windsor,Nova Scotia Canada
Swiffer duster work good too, you can push them under the strings with a hammer shank. They pick up a lot of dust
_________________________
Wayne Walker
Walker's Piano Service
http://www.walkerpiano.ca/

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#1754927 - 09/18/11 08:05 PM Re: Remove dust from piano [Re: Maximillyan]
Bob Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 3886
When a customer tunes their piano regularly, A quick blow out of dust (or dust vac on uprights) with my metro vac leaves little dust in the room - like Bill, that's part of my service, and I don't charge for 30 seconds of work. I'd rather not have dust clouds coming off the hammers and in my face on a test blow. Major dust is always an extra charge ie if it won't blow out or vac out, it's major. I'm amazed at the number of customers and tuners that don't do something to clean the piano. If you can't blow or vac it....at least wipe it down, or take a paint brush and brush the dust away. I'm always cleaning pianos at the University. I feel a clean piano stays cleaner. A dirty piano attracts more dirt.
_________________________
www.PianoTunerOrlando.com






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#1755049 - 09/18/11 11:36 PM Re: Remove dust from piano [Re: Maximillyan]
Dave B Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 1974
Loc: Philadelphia area
I have used an air compressor at 40 lbs to blow out customers pianos. I cover the strings and plate with a movers blanket and, starting from the upper treble, roll it back as I blow out the sound board. Then vacuum the dust pile along the bass side. Take the action outside to blow it out.

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#1755081 - 09/19/11 01:00 AM Re: Remove dust from piano [Re: Dave B]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1543
Loc: KZ
Cleaning piano this not only procedure hygenic. It made for change the general aesthetics (the person - a piano - a purity)! It is physic for piano, deleting dusty sectors from piano we change sounds. The Piano finds initial, conceived by constructor coloring sound. Than senior piano, that deeper submersion in timeses its initial timbre.
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1755200 - 09/19/11 09:16 AM Re: Remove dust from piano [Re: Maximillyan]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3293
Loc: Madison, WI USA
I'm not sure that cleaning out minimal dust changes the sound in any way but if Maximillyan says that cleaning out large amounts of collected dust does, I believe it. I will get a chance to prove that next month.

I knew that Bob would agree with me. He seems to be the only other technician on here who always cleans as a part of normal service. A regularly cleaned piano stays clean and if it is new looking, stays new looking for decades. A new piano not cleaned for a decade will never be clean because imbedded dust in inaccessible places cannot be completely removed unless the piano is rebuilt and that is not going to happen.

I take the two piano owner's claim that they clean their own piano with a grain of salt. Most owners will not do that. In hotels, restaurants, nursing homes, hospitals and schools where inspectors certify that the premises are clean, the piano is always the dirtiest object in the place. In the finest homes where professional house keepers take care of everything else, they won't touch the inside of a piano.

It is really the technician's job and no one else's to clean the piano because it is a technical cleaning. The owner may make the piano look clean but will probably leave dust in inaccessible areas. the same goes for merely wiping the soundboard whether with cloths or Spurlock's squeegees. I don't have those. I don't need them. They would clean a soundboard about as well as a squeegee would clean your automobile's wind shield. They would leave streaks that you have to wipe away after using the squeegees.

The pianos I regularly care for don't need the soundboard wiped in that way. The dirty pianos I have to clean get the dust blown into the bass corner first, as Dave described. The dust bunnies are then vacuumed up, thus minimizing what comes out into the room and on the floor.

I can recall many an instance where I was called to solve a problem with the action of a piano where I could not do anything until I cleaned up the long accumulated mess first.

At a hotel, I had to solve a "sticking key" problem where the damper underlever weights were coming out sideways. I had to get the hotel cleaning staff to help clean up what came out of that piano before I could address the problem. Of course, that was not the only problem. I got a call from the general manager of the hotel after the first few bills asking me why there were suddenly all these big bills when he had paid for "piano tuning" twice a year for several years and none of the bills were anywhere near what I had charged.

My reply was that he had essentially paid for substandard service and all previous bills had not been worth paying. I added that he should call the dealer who sold the piano and tell them what I had told him. Naturally, I was accused of "lying" and "exaggerations" but when that dealer spoke to me, I simply to him what the fact were. I got the piano service account and to this day, 15 years later, that piano gets tuned, cleaned and otherwise serviced once a month. That dealer is now out of business.

The technical college where I have to tune a Mason & Hamlin BB later today was much the same story. They used to have the "best" technician (as far as they knew). But when the piano didn't play properly any more and the Music Director was told "It needs a lot of work and I don't have time for that", I was called. I had to call the janitor of the building to sweep up dust pans full of dirt and debris before I could do anything else. Now, 20 years later, I have the account for all 20 pianos in their inventory and have had them ever since.

I heard a few months ago that the "best" technician had visited the dealer with whom I have contracted for over 20 years looking for work. He was told by the RPT owner that only RPT's did any of his work. The "best" technician complained that "PTG had been encroaching on his territory to the point where he could barely make a living". He was told that he was the only person who could do anything about that.

Between the now out of business dealer from whom he used to do much of the work and the many school and performance venues that he has lost, not due to anything PTG had done but due to his own inadequate service, he now would have plenty of time to actually start taking proper care of the pianos he has left in his clientele. That should start with cleaning them out. That would take much of the time he has on his hands.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#1755235 - 09/19/11 10:45 AM Re: Remove dust from piano [Re: Maximillyan]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Bill, I'm with you on the cleaning part. Where you lose me is in the "for free" part. From the sounds of it, its not really "free," as the cost of it is probably figured into your fee. I don't do that. When tuning is all that's needed, they pay for a tuning. When it's necessary to get the shop Vac and cleaning tools out, I do that and charge an additional reasonable fee for the extra work. My way, the customer is only paying for what they need when they need it.

As for PTG, MPT, et al.....being in a trade org does not necessarily make one an honest and professional expert. Conversely, not being in an org doesn't necessarily make one a slouch. There are idiots and experts both in and out of the trade orgs.

I'm sure you've dealt with a few.
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1755244 - 09/19/11 11:00 AM Re: Remove dust from piano [Re: Maximillyan]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4954
Loc: Bradford County, PA
I once asked a customer if I could use thier vacuum to do some cleaning under the keys. They didn't have one. It was a very awkward moment...
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1755253 - 09/19/11 11:11 AM Re: Remove dust from piano [Re: Maximillyan]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Usually the customers vacuums are attachments to their regular vacuum that they run over the carpeting. Takes them 5 minutes (or more) to get all of the crap out, the attachments etc., and then, it doesn't suck worth a crap which takes even longer yet because you can't just zip through it, let alone blow anything with it. I have a Dewalt. Blows and sucks like mad. But, I don't usually do it for free.
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1755274 - 09/19/11 11:42 AM Re: Remove dust from piano [Re: Maximillyan]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1104
Loc: PA
There is another aspect to this...

Just like with even the simplest medical procedure, there is always risk. When cleaning a piano, especially deep cleaning, there is always the very small, but still possible risk of damage. A scratch, snagging a loose piece of veneer, etc., is possible. it just takes a lapse of a second... the phone rings, the dog sneaks up behind you and barks...

Cleaning can also reveal a pre-existing defect such as damaged soundboard decal, for which the technician is blamed. "It was fine until you tried to clean it!"

I'm not saying not to clean, of course. But, there is always the possibility of complications.

Edit: My point is that it's not necessarily the client that assumes the risk in all cases; the technician may also assume some risk as well if there is a problem (or a perceived problem) after performing any procedure.


Edited by daniokeeper (09/19/11 12:51 PM)
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#1755488 - 09/19/11 05:03 PM Re: Remove dust from piano [Re: Maximillyan]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Very good points Joe!
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1755561 - 09/19/11 06:39 PM Re: Remove dust from piano [Re: Maximillyan]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4226
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

Originally Posted By: Loren D

As for PTG, MPT, et al.....being in a trade org does not necessarily make one an honest and professional expert. Conversely, not being in an org doesn't necessarily make one a slouch. There are idiots and experts both in and out of the trade orgs.

I'm sure you've dealt with a few.




Hey Loren,

As you have not been around here for very long; so instead of running around in the background like others do here fixing threads and what not, I thought it best to address this with you out in the open.

It seems that most tech here have abandoned the issue of member versus non-member of any organization.

With the exception of certain members who seem unable to cannot avoid the temptation of intentionally posting inflammatory and provocative comments even when previously asked by the owner to cease and desist from doing so.

It is the reason there is the sticky posting about “behavior in the tech forum” up top. It is the continual and deliberate “poking in the eye” such as the comments you have addressed that resulted in the sticky….

So when comments come up like the one you have addressed we just let them go, because whether or not one belongs to a professional organization, is not important to any of the professionals here with the exception of one or two, who simply cannot abide by the rules stated in that sticky...

What eventually happens is the objectionable members are dealt with by the mods or the owner of this forum as they have previously.

So let’s ignore these types of provocative statements here in the future; comments of this type add nothing of value to the topics or conversations, and simply have the potential to destroy the thread.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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