Hi all,

I know this topic has been brought up many times but here is my situation:

I just got my piano delivered yesterday, Yamaha U3 - it's beautiful and it sounds great!

Today when I was playing in the afternoon (5pm), my downstair neighbor was banging her ceiling to protest my "noise". I was playing Beethoven Op 78 first movement, not Pathetique or something like that.

A little more background: I bought the sound proofing bubble foam and inserted between the piano and the wall, I put wool disks underneath each wheel, and I put an extra blanket underneath the piano and the original carpet. I think I did everything I could to reduce the sound.

More background about my neighbor: actually she was the main reason why I waited this long to buy a piano. We never got along that well but at least we try to be civil. Now I just start taking lessons again, so having a real piano seems necessary for the music I want to play. Here is the worst part - she is the condo board president.....

If any of you can provide any suggestion or advice, that would be very helpful. I am now seriously considering to return my piano but I don't think it's fair to me, especially after I did my due diligence to be considerate.

Thanks!

What do the rules of your condo association have to say about music, pianos, noise, and hours?

The rules only say do not make noises that will "unreasonably" disturb neighbors....(I checked)

Yes, that include TV, Radio, musical instruments, vacuuming, and any of renovation works.... I know we are not allowed to vacuum after 6pm in weekends but I was playing at 5pm. (Trust me, I was watching time very closely just knowing who lives below me).

Hi Midlife Piano…

I am so sorry to hear of your complaining neighbor. I suppose this kind of thing does happen in close living quarters like apartments or a condo, where the only separation/barrier is a floor, a wall or a ceiling.

Before I return the piano, I’d do what terminaldegree suggested and read the fine print of the condo association/contract agreement (*edit* we must have posted at the same time... I see now that you have read the contract). Plus, there still may be some things you can do to provide more sound insulation to satisfy your neighbor.

I suppose I’m fortunate… my closest neighbor is over 300 feet away (length of a foot ball field). Even so, my neighbor says they can hear me playing my piano sometimes. Fortunately, they say they love to hear me play, what little I can play and what little they can hear.

Maybe you could try playing a little upbeat boogie-woogie and see what they say…

Good luck!

Rick

Hi Rick,

Well, I think Beethoven Op78 (F-sharp major) is pretty upbeat and relatively light compared to his other music. I was playing Rachmaninoff Prelude earlier today (apparently she was not home), and that was much heavier.

I purchased additional sound insulation products before I even bought a piano. There were many members providing some tips of sound proofing technics. Apparently it was not enough for her.

Of course, she is the condo board president - so now she will do everything possible to put "no piano playing at all" in the by-law, which I think is unfair. I know for sure other people in my development also have piano, so I know owning a piano is allowed.

You could add a MIDI device to your piano so that you can also use it with headphones or speakers to regulate the volume. They cost about 2-3,000 dollars I think.
You would then be able to use your piano either in acoustic mode or in digital mode (the "touch" would be the same also in digital mode though, which is an advantage compared to digital pianos).
I have such a device and it works well, although during the week (and during the day) I prefer to play in acoustic mode. I use both modes, depending on the circumstances.

Hi Chopin Addict,

I was considering to buy a "silent piano" but it was way out of my price range. I ended up getting a used U3 which is in excellent condition.

I already have a digital piano that I have been playing for 10 years. It is just not enough for the music I want to play. Plus now I am taking lessons seriously - that's the reason I got a real piano.

I work 9-6, M-F, so weekend is the only time I can practice acoustic piano. Now with the situation, I am not sure the point for me to own a piano anymore.

Again, thanks for your feedback.

Yes, I know, they are very expensive... They are relatively new I think, and in the future prices might go down.
Have you actually talked to your neighbour? Maybe you can come to an agreement if you talk about the problem.

Can you move the piano to another spot that might not be so bad for your neighbor?

Now I just want to strangle her more than anything else. On the "first" day I have the piano... really??

I am in the process of writing to the management company so they know what's going on. However, she is the condo board president so she has much better leverage than I do.

I need to talk to my piano teacher on Monday. If he is not willing to teach me because I don't have an acoustic piano, I will cancel the lessons, return the piano, and be done with it... Again it's so unfair especially I am the owner of my condo unit too.

Im sorry to hear of your problem neighbour , but it sounds like even if you were learning to play the "Triangle" she would complain..........some people just strive on making other people unhappy.

Hope all goes well for you , and enjoy your piano

Dan

Perhaps you could amicably work out hours that you can play that wouldn't disturb her?

Hi Eric,

Actually any other spot will be as bad (if not worse). Remember, I put the piano in a room with carpet. I bought the sound absorbing bubble foam and put it between the piano and the wall. I also bought the wool disks to minimize the vibration and put an additional sound proof blanket underneath the carpet. I really think I did everything I could. Then just on the first day, she made her statement.....

Does the list of unreasonably disruptive noises include banging on walls and ceilings?

Thanks Dan and Frito,

If 5pm on Saturday is not a good time, I don't think there would be any good time for that matter...

Having a piano is supposed to be something to celebrate and feel good about... Now it's become the main source of my stress....

Hi Voltara,

Thanks for your joke - that makes me laugh a little bit.

What annoys me most is that I already did everything possible - installing sound proof products and playing at "reasonable" time, and I still got myself into troubles. I was not kidding when I said she was the main reason why I waited 7+ years to actually get a piano.

Well I see you had your piano delivered, sorry to hear about your problem. The above post talks about rules, the condo has rules as well as State of Maryland. From what I was told certain times have certain decibel levels of noise allowed. So if you can prove your piano does not go over a certain decibel for the time periods for the State of Maryland. It is not much your neighbor can do, even if the cops came it would be little they could do if you are in those limits. Imagine that, getting bailed out of jail for piano playing. I guess that would be called "A440"..


Level 2 is where it gets crazy. You would probably be summoned to the Board about your piano playing (crime). I don't know what would happen after that. If you are within the limits of decibels, time zone, they would just have to live with it. Don't quote me on that because these associations can get crazy from what I heard but you will just have to get crazy with them. Those neighbors have to be careful too, there is something called harassment.

My piano teacher told me one of her students was going through the piano condo thing. They are taking the condo association to court, she did not give me much details but told me it has reached the courts.

Some people on this forum have Grands in condos with no problems from neighbors at all. One guy if I remember has a Mason & Hamlin BB in a condo. Sometimes people just don't like what they can't do, and make it hard for those who can. Europe has many flats as they call them with pianos in many of them. Music is a big part of the culture there, and that makes it a little easier.

Hi Aliwally,

I was just going to send you an email. It's good that you left a message here.

A friend of mine actually owns a Mason & Hamlin grand. He lived in an apartment for 10+ years and now he owns a townhouse with neighbors on each side. I never heard him telling me about his neighbor complaining but he does not have "my" neighbor living around him.

I guess if I were more reckless or ignorant, I would have felt very guilty. However, I did everything I could as a "good neighbor" and still I got complaints on the first day when I have a piano. That's just very frustrating and making me angry.

Sometimes things are not as serious as we think. You are only playing the piano on weekends, I would not write the management company. I would let her draw first blood, it is also a rule that if a certain amount of people complain it could be a problem. If only this one person it might not hold much weight. Play your piano tomorrow before 5pm and see what happens. If she knocks on the ceiling again, knock back, don't let her President title scare you. Believe me some people on the board might not like her too, I have been there and know. So don't jump ship too soon, this is America, Land of the Free and Home of the Brave. Play that for her.

Just because your neighbor complains does not necessarily make her right, or give her the right to make you change your life. People complain, irrationally and without a legal leg to stand on, about all kinds of things.

After all, you live there too. What in the world would make her think that, living in a condo environment, she'd be entitled to never hear her neighbors? It's not a reasonable expectation, period.

In your position, realizing that she's not able to be satisfied no matter what I do, I think I'd play at reasonable hours., document everything, and keep doing it until she exhausted every measure to legally make me stop. In my neighborhood, we live near the ocean, and there's an oceanfront street with houses on one side and an area of lawn leading to the seawall and the water on the other. The area on the sea side of the street is widely known to be common land. But one family has put up fences and "Private Property" signs on the area in front of their house. And I walk my dogs thru there every day, with my head high and a "just try me" attitude. Just because they can put up a sign, that doesn't make it true.

Find out what the local laws are. A statement as vague as that in your condo rules probably won't stand up legally due to being unenforceably vague. Let her complain. Be nice and agreeable to anything except not playing. You own your property and have rights, too.

Thanks Larry B,

What's really ironic was at the moment when she complained, I just felt I finally made a huge progress playing Beethoven Sonata Op78 1st movement to a decent level. I would have felt worse if I was playing lots of wrong notes or practicing scales...etc, but I guess she would not know the difference anyway.

Before it gets out of hand, maybe try talking to her and working out an understanding. She's probably the controling type and will be OK with your playing as long as she has some say in the matter. You get more flies with honey...

I think if you are forced to give up the piano, take tap dancing lessons! Let her hear that all night.

Sounds to me like the building was constructed rather poorly.

How disappointing to have your new piano installed and then suffer an adverse response from your neighbour!

These situations can escalate and usually the person who is complaining is unreasonable and intolerant. I think that early intervention in the form of a friendly chat with her may help to settle things.

Provided that you are not playing outside reasonable time limits, there is surely little cause for complaint.

Indeed, most people enjoy hearing the sounds of a piano as long as they not too loud and you are not practising the piano mercilessly for 8 hours a day

Try the friendly approach and remember that you can placate people more easily by a pleasant manner than by the bitter words of altercation.

You can try also to get the other neighbours on your side.

Good luck,

Robert.

Hey neighbor!

Is it a condo or an apartment?

It's likely she can barely hear a thing, especially if you got those fancy wool leg things that absorb much of the noise. A lot of what goes down on the upright will be through the wheels.
You don't tap your feet, do you?

It is not clear what leverage the condo president has. Can you be thrown out of the condo?

There are five paths, as I see it. (1) ignore your condo president and see if she can actually do something. If she gets you thrown out you can look elsewhere. (2) Go downstairs and talk to her in a civil manner. You might be surprised at the results. (3) Continue the complaining (and whining) to anyone on PW that will listen and stop playing. (4) Return the piano and go back to the digital piano. (5) Get the heck out of that condo on your own volition and find a condo that allows piano playing.

ChatNoir,

You might be right about the building. However, I also know people in other units own pianos. Needless to say, people across from me have 2 little kids and they are screaming all the time. Did I say anything? Of course not because I understand that's part of people's lives.

Thanks Robert and Knotty,

It's a condo - I am the owner. Tomorrow I will have a friend over to see how much he can hear from outside when I play.

Also, you don't know about my very unique neighbor. She once wrote a lengthy letter and put on my front door, complaining I was putting nails into the wall on Saturday morning. It turned out it was not me at all. It was my next door neighbor, and I could barely hear the drilling. I showed her around so she could see there was "no nail at all" on my wall. She then apologized but you guys get the idea. Does anyone drill holes on the wall on regular basis? Of course not - but she just needed to make a statement.

The fact that she is the condo board president does scare me some because I really don't want things to get ugly. It does nobody good.

Thanks Paintedpostdave,

Well, now it's too late to practice anyway because it's way past 5pm so that's why I am here thanking everyone individually who takes the time to respond to my post.

I wonder of things would have been different had you spoken to her first. Since that's not possible at this point, I suggest you take the advice of one of the earlier posters and go and talk to her. Be civil, friendly and respectful but don't give up your right to practice in your own home.

Try to come to an agreement about what hours of the day you'll play, and for how long. Then when she hears you playing it won't be a surprise or a mystery.

Best of luck to you!