Hello teachers,

Is it true that everywhere around Europe is still following the Do-Re-Mi method? From what i know, Britain follows ABC. All the piano books (or most) are teaching ABC.

Teaching bot to your students is best but what if the student wants only one and claims that they have come from Europe and they all follow Do-Re-Mi but here in Dubai we are all doing ABC but she wants me to teach her young children Do-Re-Mi which i don't want to regret not stopping in case ABC will do more good.

haha are you all confused now? :p

Thanks,
Liezl Tajanlangit

I can't tell you how much confusion is caused here on these forums by the fixed do system. Mostly from continental Europeans who are not aware the rest of the world uses ABC and moveable solfa for aural/theory. There are good educational reasons for sticking to ABC.

And what might these reasons be?

Actually, I think much of the world uses fixed-Do solfege as musical language. The exceptions that I'm aware of would be the US, Canada, Great Britain, and Germany, which uses letter names.

I started asking the parents of my students (who were from other countries) what they learned growing up. So far, I've found the following countries: most of Europe (Spain and France in particular), Russia, China, Japan, Vietnam, Mexico, Korea, and several countries in South America. Sounds like they are the 'rest of the world' and we in the US are the odd ones.

I use fixed-Do solfege with my students to build a strong ear-training foundation. My students will sing the notes of every song that they will play. Solfege helps to internalize pitch. Later, a few years down the road, I include traditional letter names so that students become fluent in both.

I don't know of any private piano methods that use fixed-Do solfege however, two group programs (Harmony Road Music Course and the Yamaha method) use solfege.

All the Romanesque languages use do-re-mi or sometimes ut-re-mi.

All the Germanic languages (including English) use some kind of ABC.

But even ABC can be quite complicated, because the Germans (and many other countries with them) use 8 letters: A-B-H-C--D--E-F--G--A, with "B" meaning English B-sharp, and "H" meaning English B. OTOH they do have really nice same-syllable suffixes for the sharps and flats.
The Dutch use the 7 English note names with the German same-syllable suffixes. The Scandinavians use either 7 or 8 note names, again with German suffixes.

I don't know about the other European language groups. I would expect ABC to be a little more widespread that just the Germanic languages. After all, "movable do" was invented by a Hungarian, so I'd expect the Hungarians to use ABC or at least something very different from fixed do.

You'll need to know which country the pupil is from, there is no such thing as "Europe".

I live in the Baltics( 3 country area in NE Europe.) My first two teachers taught me in ABC. However my current teacher uses Do-Re-Mi.

This is off topic but I am curious, if it's ok. Countries like Dubai would be using either the system from the British or the French, stemming from the colonizing days before. Music books might be in English or Arabic with English terms (ABC instead of Do Re Mi) or a mix. But what about the indigenous culture? There was a different type of scale system with a different tuning and I imagine that those notes had names too (maybe a movable type of system). Does that still exist in the country? Would it be excluded from mainstream music in schools?

That when the absolute pitches are ABC you can then teach moveable solfa, where Do is the key note. Useful for aural work and theory. If you start with fixed Do, then moveable Do becomes very confusing for the student.

Of course, these are just words, one can use any system. It is easier if people around you use the same system, though.

Find out what "do-rei-mi" means to her. Is it absolute Do or Movable Do?

I personally use Note names (ABC) for absolute and solfege (do-rei-mi) for relative.

If she insisted on using solfege for absolute, you could always use numbers for relative (one-two-three-four-five-six-sev), though there are pronunciation advantages to the solfege system wrt the number system.

But taking a step back, is she a musician? Does she really know more about the relative advantages and disadvantages or learning one or more systems compared to yourself? Maybe just say that you expect your students to learn [insert whatever system you teach here] because in the real world they need to learn to adapt to different systems.

And Australia.

That IS interesting. Thanks for the link.

Wouldn't it have been nice if two systems had not developed with different meanings for the same terminology! But as they have, and the different meanings are somewhat entrenched where they are used, the best thing is to use one OR the other. I've found it almost impossible to communicate the uses of moveable solfa to anyone who uses fixed do, try as I might, and I'm coming to the conclusion that it's not worth trying. As you say, it's just names. If you use fixed do, then use something else for scale degrees. If you use ABC for note names, then you can use movable do. But don't try to mix fixed and moveable forms with the same terminology.

Ann, I only posted this because some people think do-re-mi is sacred.

Thanks, John.... Now I've got that hymn running through my head, and will be forced to sing it out loud. We had to sing it every morning (well, Tuesdays and Thursdays) in ear-training class in college, haha! I will probably always remember the origin of Do (Ut) Re Mi...

Well, here's the actual music:

Noooo!!! (just kidding)

I already sang it and got my "fix." My kids, of course, think I am completely nuts, which, of course, is probably true.

ummmm... if you all don't mind me asking... what exactly is fixed and movable do? :S

Fixed Do is just like using letter names, just the name is different:

Do = C
Rei = D
Mi = E
Fa = F
So = G
La = A
Ti = B

Movable Do is like using the names of the scale degrees. This makes it easier to transpose into other keys. (Major):

Do = Tonic (I)
Rei = Supertonic (II)
Mi =Mediant (III)
Fa = Subdominant (IV)
So = Dominant (V)
La = Submediant (VI)
Ti = Leading Tone (VII)

If using a 'la' based system for minor, then the Tonic would start on 'la' in minor keys. (Some 'do-rei-mi' systems start minor keys on 'la', some start on 'do').

There are also additional solfege names for sharp/flat scale degrees/notes.

Regarding movable vs fixed, there are essentially two theories:

1. The movable-do system is over-simplified and forces students into a narrow understanding of music (a very conventional sense of tonality with no room to grow); it also makes them learn two systems instead of one, hence is a waste of time.

2. The movable-do system is a very valuable introduction to standard tonality, and aids in learning transposition, sight-reading, intervals, tuning, etc.


Both theories are correct. I subscribe to the first one, and avoid teaching my students any movable system, but I respect those who think otherwise and am happy to work with them.



Regarding fixed-do vs ABC: These are just two different ways of accomplishing exactly the same thing. Between fixed-do and ABC, the correct answer is "It doesn't matter, do what you like, it's OK to learn both and/or to be flexible". Knowing both ABC and fixed-do note names is easy with a little practice.

so basically fixed do is ok but movable isnt? but when i teach my students theory from trinity-guildhall they show movable :S

That's one opinion. I like moveable do, dislike fixed do because I've seen what confusion it causes.

Hem... sorry mate but *I think* I know both systems. I studied music until I was 24-25 in Greece, where the notes are named as Do-Re-Mi-Fa-Sol-La-Si (ti)... And then I moved to the UK where they used letters... C-D-E-F-G-A-B...

Both represent notes and pitches. The 'middle A' is the 'Middle La' and in most cases A4 (in MIDI) and 440 Hz in most cases...

So I don't see what the confusion is, unless I'm unaware of something.

EDIT: Ok, there MUST be some confusion here. What is 'a moveable do'? Is it some kind of Kodaly system? Cause otherwise I was raised to know that there is 1 middle Do (middle C) and what it sounds like (incidently the Pathetique is in Do minor)...

I'm obviously missing something here...

Liezl, is the parent asking you to give solfège lessons ? As you have written it it appears that the parent is asking that you to give piano lessons using Do-ré-mi nomenclature but that he is not asking you to do solfège.

If you teach movable Do, that would be an additional good reason for you not to accept the parents' request for you to teach fixed Do syllables. In movable Do, "So" means the dominant note of any key. So in G major, D would be called So. In A major, E is called So. But for the child who learned fixed Do, the syllable So represents one definite piano key: the one you call G. You end up having the same set of names representing two different things.

If the ABC system is used in your country and this student will be studying in that country, then it would be handier for this student to learn to use those names. After all, when you move to a new country you have to learn a new language and that is thousands of new names for things, instead of only seven.

The "weakness" somebody mentioned about movable Do is simply that it represents one kind of music. There is music that is based on different kinds of scales such as blues scales, or uses whole tone and octatonic scales when it is atonal which are outside of the Do Re Mi kind of scale system. If you teach music that doesn't fit major and minor scales, that's the weakness. People are divided about this.

Ok, I will repeat my post. I've NEVER EVER heard of the movable "So" (or "Do"). I now understand what you people mean but I've never ever encountered it here in Greece (or Italy in fact as far as I know).

For me Do is C... And there is a Do# as there is a C#...

Yes, the Kodaly system of instruction used in Hungary and elsewhere is based on a movable do, that is, the syllables refer not to the names of notes but to the names of scale degrees.

Nikolas, when I grew up we weren't taught anything so I had to learn note names when close to fifty. But some primary teacher had a vertical wooden chart with the eight syllables written on it and she drilled us with a pointer: this was movable Do. It was not Kodaly, the way I've read about it. Not the hand signals and the rest. After all, Kodaly picked it up from England so it existed before him but he enhanced it.

What I got out of it was a strong sense in my ear of the major and natural minor scale. Any music I heard just fit into that ladder. There was also a sense of function. We sang "Ti" (= leading note) closer than a semitone to the tonic. I only learned decades later that I had a sense of I, IV, V through the names "Do, Fa, So" and the various patterns that we sang. It allowed me to play anything in any key using this ear. It also meant that I was not aware of what key I was playing in. It made it very easy to sing modulated music because I would automatically rename the new tonic "Do" and then I was good to go. As soon as I heard the shift, it would rename itself.

I recently read that somebody had written that m.d. makes learning faster initially but creates problems when you advance. I think that's true. What happens with atonal music, or where the key is continually shifting? What if there is a Blues scale or other exotic scale. The whole thing depends on function and the degrees of the major scale. If you can't find your place on that ladder, then you are lost. Or if the music is ambiguous.

My education started in the early 1960's. I think that's around the time that Kodaly started but I don't think what we had came from his system.

use abc system

Hi Liezl,

In Estonia (eastern part EU) where I live, both ways are taught. I prefer ABC system because, in some way it is easier and it seems that the global movement is mostly going into this direction. I am also mostly using and teaching ABC.

I try to explain why to use ABC and so on. But if someone especially wants Do-Re-Mi I do not refuse.

GL
Jaak