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#1755451 - 09/19/11 04:25 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10354
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Well, if you don't see anything wrong with it, I guess the choice depends on your taste for risk. At my institution, someone who turns in work not their own faces expulsion. We take the issue fairly seriously. Students, BTW, run the council that decides the evidence and the punishment.
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#1755463 - 09/19/11 04:35 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Arctic_Mama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/09
Posts: 379
Loc: Alaska
Um yes, it IS. You're getting a grade for work you didn't do. Now, while I personally favor classes with no homework and one or two massive exams/papers as proof of learning, very few are run that way. By entering the class you submitting to the school's academic policy, which demands any work you put your name on is a true representation of YOUR time, effort, and knowledge. By violating that policy, you are defrauding the university, misrepresenting your own output, and (depending on your class's grade scheme) throwing off the curve for the rest of the students.

I will fully grant that I have always been a goody-goody, academically, but I find cheating completely disgusting. I hate homework as much as the next person, especially when I already know the concept, but that doesn't then give me license to essentially lie about my work to make life easier for me. If I signed an academic policy, I have an obligation to abide by it. I am only as good as my word and cheating invalidates that honesty.
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Yamaha CLP320

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#1755471 - 09/19/11 04:38 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6098
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
No. All you could do is TEACH her how to write essays if this is her problem and she can't write (or is she just lazy?), give her lessons for money maybe, but not do the homework for her. Among other things, believe me, it wouldn't be the last time. She would most certainly ask again.
_________________________



Music is my best friend.


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#1755491 - 09/19/11 05:04 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
TheHappyMoron Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/10
Posts: 1166
Loc: UK
I understand that if the person doesn't know the work and can't be bothered to learn it and so simply asks someone else to do it for them then that is pretty pathetic. But I agree with Pogorelich; i don't see the problem with people helping - surely the point of education is to educate, so if one understands the point then surely the job is done - it's not like the student has missed out on a valuable life experience by getting someone to do them a favour.
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All theory, dear friend, is grey, but the golden tree of life springs ever green.

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#1755500 - 09/19/11 05:19 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
jnod Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/09
Posts: 794
Loc: Toronto
No, never, don't do it. I'm a university prof and I go after people who make this 'mistake' like a barracuda. It's deeply, unforgivably wrong.
_________________________
Justin
-------
Bach English Suite #5
Scarlatti Sonata K141 . L422
Mozart Sonata K333
Schubert Impromptu opus 90 D899
Schubert Moment Musicaux opus 94 D780

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#1755501 - 09/19/11 05:21 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17921
Loc: Victoria, BC
The lack of ethics that a few of the responses represent here are beyond my comprehension.

Regards,
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BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#1755502 - 09/19/11 05:22 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
TheHappyMoron Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/10
Posts: 1166
Loc: UK
Ethics is always a touchy subject grin
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All theory, dear friend, is grey, but the golden tree of life springs ever green.

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#1755528 - 09/19/11 06:00 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Kreisler]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Just to be clear, if I were offered $50,000 to write a 10-page essay on the history of the string quartet, I would TOTALLY DO IT.

How's that for honesty? laugh


+1
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

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#1755530 - 09/19/11 06:01 PM Re: Would you? [Re: jnod]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10354
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Originally Posted By: jnod
I go after people who make this 'mistake' like a barracuda.


What a visual image! smile
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Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#1755552 - 09/19/11 06:25 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6070
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
No. Unless it was an outrageous amount of money like Kriesler said, hehe.

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#1755554 - 09/19/11 06:28 PM Re: Would you? [Re: stores]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6098
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Just to be clear, if I were offered $50,000 to write a 10-page essay on the history of the string quartet, I would TOTALLY DO IT.

How's that for honesty? laugh


Well... I could rethink my position for a Steinway D and a house to put it in (my apartment would be too small). laugh
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Music is my best friend.


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#1755575 - 09/19/11 06:56 PM Re: Would you? [Re: ChopinAddict]
aidans Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/08/10
Posts: 141
Originally Posted By: ChopinAddict
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Just to be clear, if I were offered $50,000 to write a 10-page essay on the history of the string quartet, I would TOTALLY DO IT.

How's that for honesty? laugh


Well... I could rethink my position for a Steinway D and a house to put it in (my apartment would be too small). laugh


What about adjusting the question in the other direction? For $10, would you hand in a friend's homework if he intended to ditch class? What if the teacher uses the homework assignment as a roll call? If the homework assignment is to bring something to class, like, say, index cards (this happened to me in an upper division number theory course), is it appropriate to bring extras for other students that forgot? (I forgot, as anyone who knows me would expect, and a friend bailed me out. She brought extras specifically because, knowing me, she expected that I would forget.)

I'm intrigued by the question of where to draw the line between cheating - writing another student's essay is clearly wrong - and "helping" - proofreading another student's essay for grammar and spelling is generally perfectly acceptable.

I used to edit my wife's essays, and while I never injected any new content, I would sometimes make substantive changes, like re-ordering paragraphs, or significantly re-wording a sentence in order to make it more compelling. She always made the final decisions, but I'm confident that her papers ended up being better than they would have been without my help. Sometimes I felt like I was going too far, but how much help is too much help? And does it instantly become "cheating," when you cross that line, or is it some kind of gradient?

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#1755591 - 09/19/11 07:35 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Nannerl Mozart Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 732
Loc: Australia, Melbourne
I said I wasn't going to do it ... and I still get these messages that sound all lecture-y. As wrong as it is to cheat, I just find it funny in a way that it actually happens, students pay other students to write their papers - I thought that was just a myth. Besides this, I've come across a number of students who would do it. I've helped this person before, and in the end I've done a lot of the work for her ... she's thankful but it does feel like a burden at times. I might be idealistic but I feel like people should like history ... people should be inquisitive, they should question what they are learning, question the music, question the composer, in a healthy curious sense. To see people not give a damn and ask somebody to write their essay for them is just sad.

I said no in a nice way, I offered her help, told her that knew she could do it, said to her is not hard compared to the advanced history courses I do and she still asked me if I could write it. She said it's not cheating (sure if I close my eyes, then the sun isn't out!) and put god into the equation (she's going to do some religious missionary camp for a week) and said that's why she cant write it. Ironic no?

I told her the person marking will probably catch this crime. This is one of my personal tutors! And she said if I write the whole thing up in point form, do all the research for her, then she could write the whole thing. I guess it's better than me actually doing the paper.

Nevermind, maybe I should just tell her that I'm too busy. It's better than telling her it's cheating because she'd convince me it's not, and we'll walk around the same circle again.
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#1755597 - 09/19/11 07:41 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
gooddog Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/08/08
Posts: 4791
Loc: Seattle area, WA
Would I do it? My answer is a resounding NO! I have to live with myself and I won't live with a dishonest person. Do I have a price? Probably, but the price would have to involve life and death before I'd compromise my values.
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Deborah

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#1755600 - 09/19/11 07:50 PM Re: Would you? [Re: BruceD]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19708
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: BruceD
Did you really think that you'd get any other answers than the ones you have received? Did you really think that someone, in a public forum, would say : "Yes, I would do it; I need the money!"

I'm reasonably principled, I think, and some say I'm hypertrophically principled grin but if I "needed the money" (assuming we take "need" fairly literally), I'm pretty sure I would have done it.

I didn't read all the replies but did skim the first few. I see that some of them talk about the risk that we'd supposedly be taking. I wouldn't think that is so, not greatly anyway. I would think that by far most of the risk is with the other person. I don't mean that this is what decides the basic question, just saying.

BTW, when I was in college I sort of did something like that, kinda sorta. I typed well, and (more importantly) I had a typewriter. ha Others kids sometimes offered to pay me to type their papers, and I did. No issue so far. But the thing is, I couldn't bear to type misspellings or flat-out lousy grammar, so I corrected whatever I saw. Then, I suppose, they got the credit for the good spelling and grammar.

I didn't charge extra for the "editorial" help, but it was probably some of what kept up the demand for my services. grin

edit: I see that Aidans said similar stuff.


Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
Originally Posted By: Arctic_Mama
I'd like to think I have more integrity and spine than that. It's not worth any kind of money a student would be capable of offering me to compromise my own ethics and degree. How lame!
but for a bit more ...... grin

Beware the Rick Perry syndrome. "I cannot be bought for $5,000." Give $100,000 and, well, maybe .... whome

Yes -- that was hilarious! (Unintentionally of course....)
_________________________
"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1755602 - 09/19/11 07:53 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
LimeFriday Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/02/09
Posts: 303
Loc: Australia
Quite apart from the ethical issues - it's a clear case of academic dishonesty - and both of you could end up being kicked out of your degree. If you read the policy of your Uni - you'll find that in most cases - both the person that handed in work that was not her own - AND the person who provided that work - are both guilty of academic dishonesty.

Doing the research and providing dot points is not much different from writing the entire essay. I personally wouldn't do it. And I think I'd be pretty offended if someone asked me to do it! If she's too busy to do assigned work - then she should drop classes to reduce her workload - not ask someone else to prop her up!


Edited by LimeFriday (09/19/11 07:54 PM)

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#1755606 - 09/19/11 08:00 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6098
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
Sometimes I was bullied and people just took my notes off me (expanded by going to the library)... ha

I have also helped people with whom I am still in contact though. (I didn't help with cheating of course, we just went through stuff together.)

There is of course a huge difference between helping to understand a particular subject and helping to cheat.

At any rate I have recently considered taking up karate or some other martial arts (for possible future bullies). ha ha
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Music is my best friend.


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#1755630 - 09/19/11 08:30 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10354
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
BTW, spend too much time doing what that little emoticon in your post is doing and you'll spend a lot less time playing the piano. smile

[In the dim dark past (about five years ago) I studied Tae Kwan Do. I broke a lot of boards. It was a lot of fun. Confidence generated success, which built more confidence. But on occasion, one of the suckers resisted my best efforts. I woke up the next day with very sore hands. One of my friends broke his hand on his first attempt at a board break!]
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Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#1755635 - 09/19/11 08:33 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Piano*Dad]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6098
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
ha I had thought of that too... Maybe I should find another form of self-defense. smile
_________________________



Music is my best friend.


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#1755660 - 09/19/11 09:19 PM Re: Would you? [Re: ChopinAddict]
Drunk3nFist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/08
Posts: 640
Loc: London
Originally Posted By: ChopinAddict
No. All you could do is TEACH her how to write essays if this is her problem and she can't write (or is she just lazy?), give her lessons for money maybe, but not do the homework for her. Among other things, believe me, it wouldn't be the last time. She would most certainly ask again.


Amen.
_________________________
Ravel - Une Barque Sur l'Ocean
Kapustin - Etude No. 7
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#1755674 - 09/19/11 10:21 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
Originally Posted By: Nannerl Mozart
I said I wasn't going to do it ... and I still get these messages that sound all lecture-y.


Nobody's lecturing you -- just answering your question! You asked if people would do it. You got your answer: almost everyone who responded wouldn't do it. It seems you expected most people to say that they would do it.
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#1755690 - 09/19/11 10:59 PM Re: Would you? [Re: pianojerome]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19708
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: pianojerome
....almost everyone who responded wouldn't do it....

A problem with things like this is that what people say (and believe) they'd do and what they'd actually do aren't necessarily the same. And of course I think much of it depends on exactly what kind of financial situation someone is in. A lot does. I said I thought I would have done it, if I "needed" the money. If we mean "need" literally enough, I think almost everyone would.
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"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1755693 - 09/19/11 11:05 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Mark_C]
Damon Online   happy
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6101
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: pianojerome
....almost everyone who responded wouldn't do it....

A problem with things like this is that what people say (and believe) they'd do and what they'd actually do aren't necessarily the same. And of course I think much of it depends on exactly what kind of financial situation someone is in. A lot does. I said I thought I would have done it, if I "needed" the money. If we mean "need" literally enough, I think almost everyone would.


Indeed, some people have eaten other people when the alternative is starvation.
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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#1755695 - 09/19/11 11:13 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Damon]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19708
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Damon
Indeed, some people have eaten other people when the alternative is starvation.

I have a feeling you weren't serious grin but that might actually be a good analogy.

Off the subj, but way back in the day, an episode of the TV series "The Defenders" (great show) was about exactly that.

But I admit this stuff about extreme need that I talked about might be beside the point, because I don't think Nannerl meant if we're desperate enough to eat people. smile
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"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1755705 - 09/19/11 11:26 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4526
Loc: in the past
Yeah. I don't know if many of you actually understand the concept of "having no money for food". Or rent. Or whatever the [censored].
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#1755711 - 09/19/11 11:36 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Mark_C]
Damon Online   happy
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6101
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Damon
Indeed, some people have eaten other people when the alternative is starvation.

I have a feeling you weren't serious grin but that might actually be a good analogy.

Off the subj, but way back in the day, an episode of the TV series "The Defenders" (great show) was about exactly that.

But I admit this stuff about extreme need that I talked about might be beside the point, because I don't think Nannerl meant if we're desperate enough to eat people. smile


I assume this must be the E.G. Marshall Defenders? Actually, I was kind of serious while realizing it seemed served with a side of hyperbole. I recently read an account on the voyage of the Essex (whaling ship) whose crew eventually resorted to cannibalism. Bottom line is, I don't think there are many lines that won't be crossed if the circumstance is right.
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#1755715 - 09/19/11 11:48 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Damon]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19708
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Damon
I assume this must be the E.G. Marshall Defenders?

Yes!!!
Finest show in TV history -- until Beavis & Butt-head. grin

Quote:
....Bottom line is, I don't think there are many lines that won't be crossed if the circumstance is right.

That was my point -- which I admit is also why it was meaningless. ha
_________________________
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#1755727 - 09/20/11 12:24 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Nannerl Mozart Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 732
Loc: Australia, Melbourne
lol ... Saying you wouldn't do it is not lecturing, lecturing to me is going into this whole oh this is ethically wrong, academic theft, a crime - don't do it, you shouldn't do it ... well duh ... you think I don't know that? (I've been in school for 15 years :S). I'm idealistic when it comes to money, I believe in altruism and think that is something that can be forgotten in our captitalistic society (although Australia is essentially a socialist country). So with that in mind, I offered free help and I was met with the same response "please can you do it for me, I really can't do it, and I'll pay you" ... I don't know how to proceed next ... maybe I will write it for her, and I'll submit the following: "this is cheating write your own essay."

I will say though, it is nice to hear that people on this forum, assuming that the vast majority are adults older than me, (I'm 19 so I'm on the lower end of the age spectrum) ... It's nice to hear that they wouldn't ... I've asked that question to some of my peers and they said that they would do it. I've also heard stories of people faking sick to escape an exam. I have no idea how on earth they can fake sick to a doctor ... but that's another thing I'd never do, I'd rather fail.
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#1755734 - 09/20/11 12:50 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
jeffreyjones Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 2306
Loc: San Jose, CA
No. Offer to tutor, proofread, edit, but not to write the whole thing.

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#1755737 - 09/20/11 01:05 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Nannerl Mozart Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 732
Loc: Australia, Melbourne
Yes. I have done that. I have offered to help ... and by help I mean tutor, proof read and edit ... I offered all of this FOR FREE ... she asked me if I could do it (again) ...
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