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#1755741 - 09/20/11 01:28 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5943
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: Nannerl Mozart
(although Australia is essentially a socialist country).
You're joking surely?
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#1755746 - 09/20/11 01:41 AM Re: Would you? [Re: currawong]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19797
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: currawong
Originally Posted By: Nannerl Mozart
(although Australia is essentially a socialist country).
You're joking surely?

I didn't get it either, but of course you're in a better position to get it or not get it.

Eyes of the beholder, I suppose, in the same sense that a lot of people seem to think the U.S. has a socialist president....
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#1755747 - 09/20/11 01:41 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Nannerl Mozart Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 732
Loc: Australia, Melbourne
You disagree? (please don't throw things at me ...) Incomes vary, and taxes vary depending on income amount.
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#1755749 - 09/20/11 01:43 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19797
Loc: New York
That's called "progressive tax," a common characteristic of capitalist economies....
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#1755752 - 09/20/11 01:47 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Nannerl Mozart Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 732
Loc: Australia, Melbourne
Oh yeah, also forgot to mention that education and healthcare is free...
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#1755758 - 09/20/11 01:56 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5300
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: Nannerl Mozart
Oh yeah, also forgot to mention that education and healthcare is free...
And so it happens that in Greece the same thing happens. But as evident as it can be:
1. Socialists complain that the country is NOT socialistic enough!
2. Right wing parties complain that the country is TOO socialistic.

3. And in the meantime the country goes closer to the dump from day to day...

Go figure...

I just don't really like 'labels'. Simple as that!
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#1755761 - 09/20/11 02:00 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Nannerl Mozart Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 732
Loc: Australia, Melbourne
You have a point... I always feel like I'm in trouble when I mention the words communism, capitalism, socialism ... somebody disagrees and it gets awkward...
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#1755763 - 09/20/11 02:01 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nikolas]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19797
Loc: New York
Back on topic, please!
The question is, should the government pay for people to get their papers written for them?

Please discuss, comparing and contrasting, with specific examples where appropriate. Be sure to use a well-sharpened #2 pencil.
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#1755776 - 09/20/11 02:25 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Mark_C]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5300
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
The question is, should the government pay for people to get their papers written for them?
In Greece throughout out childhood we are taught about religion. It's something I totally don't like, it's something we are forced to do and in general it's quite difficult to escape the whole 'Orthodox' thinking. For me it was a great hassle to study it. I was into science and that was about it (and music of course). Same wise I loathed learning about ancient Greek.

I've not regretted not learning a lot about religion, but I do regret not learning ancient Greek... I have cheated in both classes, though I never paid anyone to do my homework.

______________________

Honestly though, it would seem to me that the student asking to pay in order to pass the class has other attributes! That of a winner! grin (if not caught). That of someone who will stop at nothing to get what they want! That who has no ethical boundaries.

And this is where it gets interesting: It's not what kind of people we want in our society, but what kind of people will be successful in our society. At least from their point of view! Are we in the era were honesty, hard work and ethics mean less than the ability to lie successfully, cheat and find ways to do it?

And that IS a serious question!

(Sorry for blacking this thread so much... I can't help it right now... sorry)
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#1755777 - 09/20/11 02:30 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Mark_C]
Nannerl Mozart Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 732
Loc: Australia, Melbourne
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Back on topic, please!
The question is, should the government pay for people to get their papers written for them?

Please discuss, comparing and contrasting, with specific examples where appropriate. Be sure to use a well-sharpened #2 pencil.


They sort of do don't they ... there's a guy in my class who worked as a professional speech writer ... (sorry it wasn't in 2b with a sharpened pencil :P)
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#1755782 - 09/20/11 02:46 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nikolas]
Nannerl Mozart Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 732
Loc: Australia, Melbourne
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
The question is, should the government pay for people to get their papers written for them?
In Greece throughout out childhood we are taught about religion. It's something I totally don't like, it's something we are forced to do and in general it's quite difficult to escape the whole 'Orthodox' thinking. For me it was a great hassle to study it. I was into science and that was about it (and music of course). Same wise I loathed learning about ancient Greek.

I've not regretted not learning a lot about religion, but I do regret not learning ancient Greek... I have cheated in both classes, though I never paid anyone to do my homework.

______________________

Honestly though, it would seem to me that the student asking to pay in order to pass the class has other attributes! That of a winner! grin (if not caught). That of someone who will stop at nothing to get what they want! That who has no ethical boundaries.

And this is where it gets interesting: It's not what kind of people we want in our society, but what kind of people will be successful in our society. At least from their point of view! Are we in the era were honesty, hard work and ethics mean less than the ability to lie successfully, cheat and find ways to do it?

And that IS a serious question!

(Sorry for blacking this thread so much... I can't help it right now... sorry)


lol it's ok ... you have a point. And so does everybody else who answered with all seriousness ...

You know that is a difficult question ... Australia is quite different to Greece I guess, in the sense that it is a secular country. Religious education is sometimes included as an 'extra' sort of class. Teachers are not to talk about their beliefs to children or students, at least not in a preachy sense . A number of students who I've talked to would fake sick to get out of a major exam or assignment. I've just been approached by somebody who offered me money to do an essay, and I've talked to fellow students about this, many replied that they would actually do it. I wonder if the lack or religious education might be the reason why people (fellow students my age) would happily help another person cheat. Having said that, I've only talked to a few people, not enough to make any sweeping generalisations.

Looking at that person who asked me to help her cheat, she's a religious person. She is doing a church camp thing for a week where she helps troubled youth, her reasoning is that this is not cheating ... she's paying me to work for her ... that is her reasoning ... Religious or not, I guess cheating still happens.

Mind you, I think cheaters are caught eventually ... you do somebody's assignment for them, they get great marks, ... the assignment is only one part of the equation, they have a test to sit, lectures and tutorials to attend, discussions to participate in, interviews to sit, auditions to do, it might be easy to cheat one thing ... but it's if you cheat at everything, then you must be an intelligent mastermind (ironic again, since you could have used your talents to actually do the work)
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#1755784 - 09/20/11 02:56 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19797
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Nannerl Mozart
....she's a religious person....her reasoning is that this is not cheating ... she's paying me to work for her...

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#1755786 - 09/20/11 03:05 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
wuxia Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/04/11
Posts: 106
Loc: Sofia, Bulgaria
Sure I'd do it, society taught me to. Living and working in an eastern european country, ~600 dollars a month for 10 hour wordkays. I wouldn't even think about not doing it. And the thing that gives me the strenght to overcome the moralistic pressure by doing it is the very environment that presented me with the offer in the first place.
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#1755802 - 09/20/11 05:04 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
kevinb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 1565
If only the ethics of this situation were as clear as some people make out.

What, exactly, is the ethical problem here? Dishonesty? Dishonesty by itself isn't necessarily a great evil. If the Nazi stormtroopers have beaten in your front door with their rifle butts, the morally-correct answer to the question 'Are you hiding any Jews in your cellar?' is 'No, absolutely not'. Even by Kant-ian 'categorical imperative' standards this is the right answer.

Suppose my fellow student is in deep financial trouble and has serious family difficulties (or whatever). He asks me to do one of his assignments. If I do it, it will take the pressure off him just enough that he'll be able to stay at University and, all being well, eventually graduate and improve his own lot and that of his family.

Should I refuse, because it's 'dishonest'? I might legitimately refuse because, in the long run, it wouldn't help. But it _might_ help, that's the point.

If there are circumtances in which it would be appropriate to help a student in this way, does it make any difference whether money is involved? And, if so, why? Would it be wrong to accept the money if you would have done it wihout (this is the old 'Mayor Curly' problem -- is it wrong to accept a bribe to make a decision you had already made?). And if it were wrong to accept payment, would it be wrong to do the work in the implicit assumption that (say) the favour might someday be returned?

As Jiminy Cricket said, always let your conscience be your guide. But let it be your guide after due consideration of the facts of each case.

On a practical note, Universities I taught at always made stern pronouncements about harsh penalities for this kind of cheating but, as Kriesler says, it's pretty hard to detect and sanctions were rare. The most flagrant example I saw was a case where someone had directly copied another students work using a photocopier and submitted it with a different name on top. But it was obvious that this had been done because the original was in colour, and the copy in monochrome. And even in that case the students got away with a slight telling-off smirk

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#1755819 - 09/20/11 06:49 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10385
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
The Internet has made cheating easier, but it has also made detection easier. In my experience, university sanctions are not rare, and sometimes they are spectacular (expulsion). Although individual cases are private, the aggregate results of the honor council's work is public.


Quote:
Suppose my fellow student is in deep financial trouble and has serious family difficulties (or whatever). He asks me to do one of his assignments. If I do it, it will take the pressure off him just enough that he'll be able to stay at University and, all being well, eventually graduate and improve his own lot and that of his family.


How do you know all the consequences of your actions for him? You may have just caved in to a person who is a serial cheat. Alternatively, you may have just shown him how easy it is to repeat this process. He then becomes a screw-up who graduates and moves into a position of authority but without a good moral compass. How do you know that you have no other alternatives to help take the pressure off besides setting aside academic honesty rules?

This is not the Nazi jackboot case. There are no obvious life/death consequences of the choice in this case. So, when does ethical choice bleed over into situational ethics of the slippery sort?

To Nannerl: please stop harping on people lecturing you. It's becoming rather a tiresome reverse lecture. You asked a question and people are grappling with it.
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#1755898 - 09/20/11 10:18 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Piano*Dad]
kevinb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 1565
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
How do you know that you have no other alternatives to help take the pressure off besides setting aside academic honesty rules?

This is not the Nazi jackboot case. There are no obvious life/death consequences of the choice in this case. So, when does ethical choice bleed over into situational ethics of the slippery sort?


Darned if I know. As an academic I saw all sorts of reasons for cheating -- from what seemed to be out-and-out laziness, to real tear-jerkers. Most culprits were able to offer some sort of mitigation for their actions -- few were bare-faced enough to claim 'it's just capitalism in action'. Some students saw cheating as a kind of rebellion against the system -- those people would probably have succeded the honest way if they'd put as much effort into studying the subject as subverting the rules. Some students were struggling to study in the evening while working and raising a family single-handed. Those folks needed all the breaks they could get, but sometimes didn't realise that official breaks were on offer. All sorts of people, all sorts of reasons.

No, it's not a jackboot case. But when one accepts that some forms of dishonesty are ethically acceptable -- and I suspect most people do -- then the question arises: which ones?

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#1755902 - 09/20/11 10:30 AM Re: Would you? [Re: kevinb]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4528
Loc: in the past
Originally Posted By: kevinb
No, it's not a jackboot case. But when one accepts that some forms of dishonesty are ethically acceptable -- and I suspect most people do -- then the question arises: which ones?


I don't know what you do, but I can assure you schools do things that are a LOT worse (morally and ethically) than copying someone else's homework. I don't even want to start... I really should shut up right NOW. But I just HAD to say that.
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#1755908 - 09/20/11 10:42 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Kreisler]
rocket88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 3165
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Just to be clear, if I were offered $50,000 to write a 10-page essay on the history of the string quartet, I would TOTALLY DO IT.

How's that for honesty? laugh


Reminds me of the old joke:

A man asks a woman he just met to sleep with him for one night, and offers her a million dollars.

She readily accepts, so he then says, "How about a hundred thousand?" and she says, "OK".

Then he says how about twenty dollars? She indignantly replies, "What do you think I am, a prostitute?"

Whereupon he says, "We have already settled that. What we are now doing is negotiating the price."
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Music teacher and piano player.

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#1755911 - 09/20/11 10:45 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Arctic_Mama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/09
Posts: 379
Loc: Alaska
True, but cheating and aiding a cheat is one of those things a student can directly control. Both parties have full wherewithall to choose something different, and furthermore have pledged to do so. Thus it becomes a fairly straightforward matter.

I managed to make it through all my schooling and college without helping someone cheat on paper, and that includes the times I was so poor I was sleeping on my friends' floor and living out of the back of my old car. It's not as difficult to maintain integrity as one might think, when you are committed to it wink
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#1755919 - 09/20/11 11:08 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
leemax Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/16/10
Posts: 501
Loc: pacific nw, usa
rocket88. I thought of the same joke and was going to post it here, but you beat me to it! It kinda fits, though, doesn't it? I think most of us would have our price for many things. There are lots of things I would NOT do for any amount of money, but there are certainly other things that I would not ordinarily do but would do for the right payoff. No need to go into any specifics about deeds or amounts, but don't you think many of us would be the same?


Edited by leemax (09/20/11 11:10 AM)
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#1755928 - 09/20/11 11:29 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Kreisler]
Brendan Offline



Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 5318
Loc: McAllen, TX
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Just to be clear, if I were offered $50,000 to write a 10-page essay on the history of the string quartet, I would TOTALLY DO IT.

How's that for honesty? laugh


Sheesh, I would write a 10-page essay on the history of constipation for that amount.
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http://www.BrendanKinsella.com

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#1755940 - 09/20/11 11:50 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
DianneB Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/08/08
Posts: 89
Quote:
You know it's wrong but would you do it?


As a poor, penniless music student, didn't you sign an agreement of academic honesty/integrity at that college?

If discovered, it could jeopardize both of you when you wish to graduate.

IMHO, you have an interest in this female student that goes beyond writing a paper.

Edited to add: "Don't compromise yourself." Janis Joplin


Edited by DianneB (09/20/11 12:20 PM)

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#1755981 - 09/20/11 01:06 PM Re: Would you? [Re: ChopinAddict]
TheHappyMoron Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/10
Posts: 1166
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: ChopinAddict
Maybe I should find another form of self-defense. smile


I hear a gun is good for that sort of thing. grin
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#1756036 - 09/20/11 02:18 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Arctic_Mama]
kevinb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 1565
Originally Posted By: Arctic_Mama
I managed to make it through all my schooling and college without helping someone cheat on paper, and that includes the times I was so poor I was sleeping on my friends' floor and living out of the back of my old car. It's not as difficult to maintain integrity as one might think, when you are committed to it wink


As someone who finds life to be an endless source of moral complexity, I find this kind of certainty enviable.

Based on the scant facts at hand, and no information whatever about the personal circumstances of the people involved, I wouldn't have the first clue how to offer even a vague opinion about the ethics of this case.

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#1756039 - 09/20/11 02:30 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
rocket88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 3165
The ethics are very simple...if it is against the school's rules of conduct to turn in work that is not your own, which I am certain it is, then it is wrong to do so, and wrong to be involved in that enterprise.

If its a do-or-die situation where the student will fail otherwise, then do as Apple suggested, and help the student with another chore so he/she has time, and perhaps help with editing/smoothing out, but it should be the student's body of work you are editing.

If you will starve without the money, go to the local church or shelter and get a meal, and/or offer to do something such as word-processing on the side for students (of their own work).

There is always a way to avoid cheating / lying / stealing.


Edited by rocket88 (09/20/11 03:02 PM)
Edit Reason: clarity
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#1756053 - 09/20/11 03:01 PM Re: Would you? [Re: rocket88]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19797
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: rocket88
The ethics are very simple...if it is against the school's rules of conduct to turn in work that is not your own, which I am certain it is, then it is wrong to do so, and wrong to be involved in that enterprise.

What some of us are saying is that the lines change when we're talking about survival or 'getting by.'

If we're talking about doing it not for survival or getting by, but more for the heck of it, then I'd say it's how you're saying.
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#1756057 - 09/20/11 03:19 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Mark_C]
Diane... Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 3450
Loc: Western Canada
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: rocket88
The ethics are very simple...if it is against the school's rules of conduct to turn in work that is not your own, which I am certain it is, then it is wrong to do so, and wrong to be involved in that enterprise.

What some of us are saying is that the lines change when we're talking about survival or 'getting by.'

If we're talking about doing it not for survival or getting by, but more for the heck of it, then I'd say it's how you're saying.


Kind of reminds me of the President who said,

"I did NOT have sexual relations with THAT woman!"

Everyone will always remember it was Bill Clinton!
In my eyes, HE'LL always be poor!
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#1756074 - 09/20/11 03:46 PM Re: Would you? [Re: rocket88]
kevinb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 1565
Originally Posted By: rocket88
The ethics are very simple...if it is against the school's rules of conduct to turn in work that is not your own, which I am certain it is, then it is wrong to do so, and wrong to be involved in that enterprise.


When did school rules become a moral code? I think I must have missed where they were emblazoned on marble tablets with holy fire smile

For me to conclude that something is unethical, I need a better explanation than 'it's against the rules'. The behaviour described in the OP might be unethical but, if it is, being against the rules is the _result_ of its ethical status, not the _cause_ of it.

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#1756083 - 09/20/11 03:59 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
BruceD Offline
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Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18131
Loc: Victoria, BC
The implication that morals and ethical standards are dependent upon proscriptive rules and that, by extension, if a rule is not stated any conduct which breaks the (implied) rule is acceptable is beyond my understanding.

In the context of the original question where the arguments of life and death situations were not implied, it is also hard for me to understand the precept that there are varying degrees of cheating, some of which seem to be acceptable to some while others are not; where do such people draw the line? Do they subscribe to the old saw that "it's only cheating if you get caught"?

Regards,
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#1756088 - 09/20/11 04:14 PM Re: Would you? [Re: kevinb]
pianoloverus Offline
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Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19450
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: kevinb
...The most flagrant example I saw was a case where someone had directly copied another students work using a photocopier and submitted it with a different name on top. But it was obvious that this had been done because the original was in colour, and the copy in monochrome. And even in that case the students got away with a slight telling-off smirk
When I taught high school I sometimes told students that were copying homework "Why not go to the library? There's a new machine there that "copies" homework but in your own handwriting." Several took me seriously.

The reality is that at a typical high school there are hundreds of homework assignments copied at least in part every day.


Edited by pianoloverus (09/20/11 04:25 PM)

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