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#1756095 - 09/20/11 04:24 PM Re: Would you? [Re: TheHappyMoron]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6101
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
Originally Posted By: TheCannibalHaddock
Originally Posted By: ChopinAddict
Maybe I should find another form of self-defense. smile


I hear a gun is good for that sort of thing. grin


I'll think about it! laugh

ChopinAddict the GunWoman
_________________________



Music is my best friend.


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#1756105 - 09/20/11 04:45 PM Re: Would you? [Re: BruceD]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19342
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: BruceD
In the context of the original question where the arguments of life and death situations were not implied, it is also hard for me to understand the precept that there are varying degrees of cheating, some of which seem to be acceptable to some while others are not; where do such people draw the line? Do they subscribe to the old saw that "it's only cheating if you get caught"?
I've had some intelligent and very nice students express that opinion. I never understood it. I think the concept of cheating is independent of what one thinks of the ethics involved. No different than trying to say one is innocent of robbing a bank if not caught.

At the school I taught at for 23 years cheating was considered far less of a crime than stealing. Stealing meant automatic expulsion but cheating got several warnings from the administration. Plus the admin would sometimes not support a teacher if the teacher said they saw a student clearly attempting to look at another student's paper during a test. I think they were afraid of lawsuits.

On a geometry test I gave one of the questions required the student to make a diagram illustrating a theorem. The student "cleverly" lettered the diagram so that it contained several obscenities. When I told the student this was inappropriate(thinking that would be the end of the conversation), the student actually repeatedly claimed that his choice of letters was pure chance. He even said the same thing to the dean of students.






Edited by pianoloverus (09/20/11 04:51 PM)

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#1756115 - 09/20/11 05:05 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19342
Loc: New York City
The "funniest" example of a student's cheating I experienced as a teacher occured on a geometry test with a statement-reason proofs. The student who knew how to do the problem had two statements using the same reason. For the second statement he wrote "Same as step 3". The student who did the copying could not read the other student's reason for step 3 so he left the reason blank. But he still copied the "Same as step 3" as a reason for the other statement.

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#1756134 - 09/20/11 05:49 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
RonaldSteinway Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 1490
It happens all the times. Many high school students hire professional writer to write their essay to get into good schools. It does not mean that they are not good students. The competition to get into big school names are very fierce. Those kids who apply to big name schools are smart, involve in all kind of activities. One thing that can differentiate them is essay. That is why the essay MUST be great.

If I were not in the same class with the person who request for my service, I would have gone ahead do it. Nothing they can do to me, because I act as a professional essay writer for that person. Isn't this the same kind of service that a professional speech writers provide to their clients?

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#1756138 - 09/20/11 06:12 PM Re: Would you? [Re: RonaldSteinway]
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
It happens all the times. Many high school students hire professional writer to write their essay to get into good schools. It does not mean that they are not good students. The competition to get into big school names are very fierce. Those kids who apply to big name schools are smart, involve in all kind of activities. One thing that can differentiate them is essay. That is why the essay MUST be great.


The problem is that if the student has hired a writer, then the essay isn't differentiating the student. It's differentiating the writer. In my mind, it's the same as writing false information on your resume - saying that you have such and such experience and such and such awards, when you have none of it. Yes, a school may be very impressed by a made-up resume -- but it says absolutely nothing about the student if it's all made up.
_________________________
Sam

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#1756143 - 09/20/11 06:19 PM Re: Would you? [Re: kevinb]
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
Originally Posted By: kevinb
Originally Posted By: rocket88
The ethics are very simple...if it is against the school's rules of conduct to turn in work that is not your own, which I am certain it is, then it is wrong to do so, and wrong to be involved in that enterprise.


When did school rules become a moral code? I think I must have missed where they were emblazoned on marble tablets with holy fire smile

For me to conclude that something is unethical, I need a better explanation than 'it's against the rules'. The behaviour described in the OP might be unethical but, if it is, being against the rules is the _result_ of its ethical status, not the _cause_ of it.



It is generally unethical to unilaterally break a written contract with someone. When one begins university studies, he/she has to agree to a written contract to follow all of the rules and codes of the university. By cheating, he's breaking that contract.

By the way, when you submit a college application, you have to sign that all of the information you've submitted is correct to your knowledge. When the application asks for an essay written by the applicant, and you submit an essay written by a hired author for the college app, then you're lying when you sign the final page indicating that all of the information is true. (It is not true that you wrote the essay.) That is also unethical, aside from the fact that it's cheating.
_________________________
Sam

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#1756144 - 09/20/11 06:19 PM Re: Would you? [Re: pianojerome]
RonaldSteinway Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 1490
Originally Posted By: pianojerome
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
It happens all the times. Many high school students hire professional writer to write their essay to get into good schools. It does not mean that they are not good students. The competition to get into big school names are very fierce. Those kids who apply to big name schools are smart, involve in all kind of activities. One thing that can differentiate them is essay. That is why the essay MUST be great.


The problem is that if the student has hired a writer, then the essay isn't differentiating the student. It's differentiating the writer. In my mind, it's the same as writing false information on your resume - saying that you have such and such experience and such and such awards, when you have none of it. Yes, a school may be very impressed by a made-up resume -- but it says absolutely nothing about the student if it's all made up.


It is the school responsibility to confirm the facts. The main purpose of this admission essay is to make you stand out among all great students applying to these big schools.

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#1756146 - 09/20/11 06:22 PM Re: Would you? [Re: BruceD]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6148
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: BruceD
The implication that morals and ethical standards are dependent upon proscriptive rules and that, by extension, if a rule is not stated any conduct which breaks the (implied) rule is acceptable is beyond my understanding.

In the context of the original question where the arguments of life and death situations were not implied, it is also hard for me to understand the precept that there are varying degrees of cheating, some of which seem to be acceptable to some while others are not; where do such people draw the line? Do they subscribe to the old saw that "it's only cheating if you get caught"?

Regards,


Organized sports do teach that the consequence of violating rules are to be weighed against a perceived advantage.
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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#1756147 - 09/20/11 06:22 PM Re: Would you? [Re: pianojerome]
RonaldSteinway Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 1490
Originally Posted By: pianojerome
Originally Posted By: kevinb
Originally Posted By: rocket88
The ethics are very simple...if it is against the school's rules of conduct to turn in work that is not your own, which I am certain it is, then it is wrong to do so, and wrong to be involved in that enterprise.


When did school rules become a moral code? I think I must have missed where they were emblazoned on marble tablets with holy fire smile

For me to conclude that something is unethical, I need a better explanation than 'it's against the rules'. The behaviour described in the OP might be unethical but, if it is, being against the rules is the _result_ of its ethical status, not the _cause_ of it.



It is generally unethical to unilaterally break a written contract with someone. When one begins university studies, he/she has to agree to a written contract to follow all of the rules and codes of the university. By cheating, he's breaking that contract.

By the way, when you submit a college application, you have to sign that all of the information you've submitted is correct to your knowledge. When someone submits an essay written by a hired author for the college app, one is lying by signing the final page. That is also unethical, aside from the fact that it's cheating.


It is reality of life.... you'd better aware of this.
If the schools want to ensure that the applicants really write the essay, make them write under supervision like taking CPA test. The schools are not oblivious concerning this matter, therefore, many other variables used to come up with the decision.

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#1756148 - 09/20/11 06:23 PM Re: Would you? [Re: RonaldSteinway]
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
Originally Posted By: pianojerome
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
It happens all the times. Many high school students hire professional writer to write their essay to get into good schools. It does not mean that they are not good students. The competition to get into big school names are very fierce. Those kids who apply to big name schools are smart, involve in all kind of activities. One thing that can differentiate them is essay. That is why the essay MUST be great.


The problem is that if the student has hired a writer, then the essay isn't differentiating the student. It's differentiating the writer. In my mind, it's the same as writing false information on your resume - saying that you have such and such experience and such and such awards, when you have none of it. Yes, a school may be very impressed by a made-up resume -- but it says absolutely nothing about the student if it's all made up.


It is the school responsibility to confirm the facts. The main purpose of this admission essay is to make you stand out among all great students applying to these big schools.


It is the student's responsibility to supply reliable facts.

Your last statement is akin to saying: it's ok for people to commit crimes, because it's the police's responsibility to confirm that people aren't breaking the law. Yes, the university has to confirm the facts, but that doesn't give the student the right or the obligation to lie.
_________________________
Sam

Top
#1756149 - 09/20/11 06:24 PM Re: Would you? [Re: RonaldSteinway]
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
Originally Posted By: pianojerome
Originally Posted By: kevinb
Originally Posted By: rocket88
The ethics are very simple...if it is against the school's rules of conduct to turn in work that is not your own, which I am certain it is, then it is wrong to do so, and wrong to be involved in that enterprise.


When did school rules become a moral code? I think I must have missed where they were emblazoned on marble tablets with holy fire smile

For me to conclude that something is unethical, I need a better explanation than 'it's against the rules'. The behaviour described in the OP might be unethical but, if it is, being against the rules is the _result_ of its ethical status, not the _cause_ of it.



It is generally unethical to unilaterally break a written contract with someone. When one begins university studies, he/she has to agree to a written contract to follow all of the rules and codes of the university. By cheating, he's breaking that contract.

By the way, when you submit a college application, you have to sign that all of the information you've submitted is correct to your knowledge. When someone submits an essay written by a hired author for the college app, one is lying by signing the final page. That is also unethical, aside from the fact that it's cheating.


It is reality of life.... you'd better aware of this.
If the schools want to ensure that the applicants really write the essay, make them write under supervision like taking CPA test.


It is a reality of life that people do all sorts of unethical things. That doesn't mean we shouldn't criticize such behavior and take action to be sure it doesn't continue.

Perhaps the way to ensure that applicants really write the essay is to teach our children and neighbors to be honest, and to surround them with an academic culture based on honesty.


Edited by pianojerome (09/20/11 06:26 PM)
_________________________
Sam

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#1756150 - 09/20/11 06:26 PM Re: Would you? [Re: pianojerome]
RonaldSteinway Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 1490
Originally Posted By: pianojerome
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
Originally Posted By: pianojerome
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
It happens all the times. Many high school students hire professional writer to write their essay to get into good schools. It does not mean that they are not good students. The competition to get into big school names are very fierce. Those kids who apply to big name schools are smart, involve in all kind of activities. One thing that can differentiate them is essay. That is why the essay MUST be great.


The problem is that if the student has hired a writer, then the essay isn't differentiating the student. It's differentiating the writer. In my mind, it's the same as writing false information on your resume - saying that you have such and such experience and such and such awards, when you have none of it. Yes, a school may be very impressed by a made-up resume -- but it says absolutely nothing about the student if it's all made up.


It is the school responsibility to confirm the facts. The main purpose of this admission essay is to make you stand out among all great students applying to these big schools.


It is the student's responsibility to supply reliable facts.

Your last statement is akin to saying: it's ok for people to commit crimes, because it's the police's responsibility to confirm that people aren't breaking the law. Yes, the university has to confirm the facts, but that doesn't give the student the right or the obligation to lie.


Go to linkedin, and read some of your coworkers' online resumes. You can see how much they lied in order to make their resumes look outstanding. Fortunately, I am content with my job, so that I do not really need to write a new resume for the last 12 years.

Top
#1756153 - 09/20/11 06:31 PM Re: Would you? [Re: pianojerome]
RonaldSteinway Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 1490
Originally Posted By: pianojerome
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
Originally Posted By: pianojerome
Originally Posted By: kevinb
Originally Posted By: rocket88
The ethics are very simple...if it is against the school's rules of conduct to turn in work that is not your own, which I am certain it is, then it is wrong to do so, and wrong to be involved in that enterprise.


When did school rules become a moral code? I think I must have missed where they were emblazoned on marble tablets with holy fire smile

For me to conclude that something is unethical, I need a better explanation than 'it's against the rules'. The behaviour described in the OP might be unethical but, if it is, being against the rules is the _result_ of its ethical status, not the _cause_ of it.



It is generally unethical to unilaterally break a written contract with someone. When one begins university studies, he/she has to agree to a written contract to follow all of the rules and codes of the university. By cheating, he's breaking that contract.

By the way, when you submit a college application, you have to sign that all of the information you've submitted is correct to your knowledge. When someone submits an essay written by a hired author for the college app, one is lying by signing the final page. That is also unethical, aside from the fact that it's cheating.


It is reality of life.... you'd better aware of this.
If the schools want to ensure that the applicants really write the essay, make them write under supervision like taking CPA test.


It is a reality of life that people do all sorts of unethical things. That doesn't mean we shouldn't criticize such behavior and take action to be sure it doesn't continue.

Perhaps the way to ensure that applicants really write the essay is to teach our children and neighbors to be honest, and to surround them with an academic culture based on honesty.


It is definitely NOT in the US Academy entrance process. Young and adult lie to get into good schools. Not to mention people who work also. They do lie about their qualifications. The ultimate test is that when they are in the school or in the company. If they can do what they said they can, it should not be a problem. If not, they will get kicked out. Many people just do not have the opportunities to show their talents in the past, a little lie is ok, but prove that you can do it.

Look at those amateur piano competitions application forms. Some of them asked for the pieces that one had played in the past. One can just lie left and right. Why don't they just listen to the performance video. It will answer everything.


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#1756154 - 09/20/11 06:34 PM Re: Would you? [Re: RonaldSteinway]
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
Originally Posted By: pianojerome
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
Originally Posted By: pianojerome
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
It happens all the times. Many high school students hire professional writer to write their essay to get into good schools. It does not mean that they are not good students. The competition to get into big school names are very fierce. Those kids who apply to big name schools are smart, involve in all kind of activities. One thing that can differentiate them is essay. That is why the essay MUST be great.


The problem is that if the student has hired a writer, then the essay isn't differentiating the student. It's differentiating the writer. In my mind, it's the same as writing false information on your resume - saying that you have such and such experience and such and such awards, when you have none of it. Yes, a school may be very impressed by a made-up resume -- but it says absolutely nothing about the student if it's all made up.


It is the school responsibility to confirm the facts. The main purpose of this admission essay is to make you stand out among all great students applying to these big schools.


It is the student's responsibility to supply reliable facts.

Your last statement is akin to saying: it's ok for people to commit crimes, because it's the police's responsibility to confirm that people aren't breaking the law. Yes, the university has to confirm the facts, but that doesn't give the student the right or the obligation to lie.


Go to linkedin, and read some of your coworkers' online resumes. You can see how much they lied in order to make their resumes look outstanding. Fortunately, I am content with my job, so that I do not really need to write a new resume for the last 12 years.


You are correct that many people lie to advance their careers. It is despicable behavior, and I will not lie to advance my career.
_________________________
Sam

Top
#1756159 - 09/20/11 06:40 PM Re: Would you? [Re: RonaldSteinway]
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
Originally Posted By: pianojerome
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
Originally Posted By: pianojerome
Originally Posted By: kevinb
Originally Posted By: rocket88
The ethics are very simple...if it is against the school's rules of conduct to turn in work that is not your own, which I am certain it is, then it is wrong to do so, and wrong to be involved in that enterprise.


When did school rules become a moral code? I think I must have missed where they were emblazoned on marble tablets with holy fire smile

For me to conclude that something is unethical, I need a better explanation than 'it's against the rules'. The behaviour described in the OP might be unethical but, if it is, being against the rules is the _result_ of its ethical status, not the _cause_ of it.



It is generally unethical to unilaterally break a written contract with someone. When one begins university studies, he/she has to agree to a written contract to follow all of the rules and codes of the university. By cheating, he's breaking that contract.

By the way, when you submit a college application, you have to sign that all of the information you've submitted is correct to your knowledge. When someone submits an essay written by a hired author for the college app, one is lying by signing the final page. That is also unethical, aside from the fact that it's cheating.


It is reality of life.... you'd better aware of this.
If the schools want to ensure that the applicants really write the essay, make them write under supervision like taking CPA test.


It is a reality of life that people do all sorts of unethical things. That doesn't mean we shouldn't criticize such behavior and take action to be sure it doesn't continue.

Perhaps the way to ensure that applicants really write the essay is to teach our children and neighbors to be honest, and to surround them with an academic culture based on honesty.


It is definitely NOT in the US Academy entrance process. Young and adult lie to get into good schools. Not to mention people who work also. They do lie about their qualifications. The ultimate test is that when they are in the school or in the company. If they can do what they said they can, it should not be a problem. If not, they will get kicked out. Many people just do not have the opportunities to show their talents in the past, a little lie is ok, but prove that you can do it.

Look at those amateur piano competitions application forms. Some of them asked for the pieces that one had played in the past. One can just lie left and right. Why don't they just listen to the performance video. It will answer everything.



Again, yes, you are right: people lie. That doesn't make it right, just because many people do it. Many people murder, rape, steal -- yes, many people do it. It is unethical and despicable behavior.
_________________________
Sam

Top
#1756160 - 09/20/11 06:40 PM Re: Would you? [Re: pianojerome]
RonaldSteinway Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 1490
Originally Posted By: pianojerome
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
Originally Posted By: pianojerome
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
Originally Posted By: pianojerome
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
It happens all the times. Many high school students hire professional writer to write their essay to get into good schools. It does not mean that they are not good students. The competition to get into big school names are very fierce. Those kids who apply to big name schools are smart, involve in all kind of activities. One thing that can differentiate them is essay. That is why the essay MUST be great.


The problem is that if the student has hired a writer, then the essay isn't differentiating the student. It's differentiating the writer. In my mind, it's the same as writing false information on your resume - saying that you have such and such experience and such and such awards, when you have none of it. Yes, a school may be very impressed by a made-up resume -- but it says absolutely nothing about the student if it's all made up.


It is the school responsibility to confirm the facts. The main purpose of this admission essay is to make you stand out among all great students applying to these big schools.


It is the student's responsibility to supply reliable facts.

Your last statement is akin to saying: it's ok for people to commit crimes, because it's the police's responsibility to confirm that people aren't breaking the law. Yes, the university has to confirm the facts, but that doesn't give the student the right or the obligation to lie.


Go to linkedin, and read some of your coworkers' online resumes. You can see how much they lied in order to make their resumes look outstanding. Fortunately, I am content with my job, so that I do not really need to write a new resume for the last 12 years.


You are correct that many people lie to advance their careers. It is despicable behavior, and I will not lie to advance my career.


It depends on the situation. If you are in a good position, and you have no desire to further your career, it is stupid to lie to get a better position (it is greedy). Because most likely you will get caught. But if you are jobless, and need to find a job, a little lie is OK, as long as you can show that you are actually able to do it, and more importantly there is no opportunity cost.

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#1756162 - 09/20/11 06:42 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Arctic_Mama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/09
Posts: 379
Loc: Alaska
Ditto Sam. I can't believe people would justify cheating/lying/falsifying information as part of the 'game'. That is completely despicable. Just because you might get away with it doesn't make it wrong.

But I also believe in moral absolutes and absolute truth (and thus, the converse). I don't do 'fuzzy' on personal ethics. There are surprisingly few grey areas when it really gets down to it, but seemingly infinite things people will try to justify. I don't personally live that way if I can at all help it,.
_________________________
Starting over after a decade-long hiatus from playing!
Yamaha CLP320

Burgmuller - Inquietude

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#1756163 - 09/20/11 06:42 PM Re: Would you? [Re: pianojerome]
RonaldSteinway Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 1490
Originally Posted By: pianojerome

Again, yes, you are right: people lie. That doesn't make it right, just because many people do it. Many people murder, rape, steal -- yes, many people do it. It is unethical and despicable behavior.


More over it is sin! We will pay in the next life.

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#1756166 - 09/20/11 06:51 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Arctic_Mama]
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
Originally Posted By: Arctic_Mama
But I also believe in moral absolutes and absolute truth (and thus, the converse). I don't do 'fuzzy' on personal ethics. There are surprisingly few grey areas when it really gets down to it, but seemingly infinite things people will try to justify. I don't personally live that way if I can at all help it,.


The "fuzzy" comes in when absolute values come into conflict with each other, as they often inevitably do. For example, someone earlier brought up a classic example: what if you were hiding innocent Jews, and the Nazis knocked on your door to ask if you are hiding Jews? Then you have a conflict of "absolute truths" -- it is unethical to lie, and it is unethical to cause the death of the innocent, but in this situation you will have to either lie or cause an innocent's death. One might say, "it is not unethical to lie if by doing so you are saving a life" -- but then it is no longer an absolute truth that it is unethical to lie. Then it is a conditional truth. Such moral conflicts are so commonplace; it's part of what makes life (and morality) so complex.
_________________________
Sam

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#1756170 - 09/20/11 06:55 PM Re: Would you? [Re: RonaldSteinway]
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
Originally Posted By: pianojerome

Again, yes, you are right: people lie. That doesn't make it right, just because many people do it. Many people murder, rape, steal -- yes, many people do it. It is unethical and despicable behavior.


More over it is sin! We will pay in the next life.


I *also* agree with this statement, which is a separate statement, but that doesn't disprove my previous statement.
_________________________
Sam

Top
#1756174 - 09/20/11 07:01 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Arctic_Mama]
RonaldSteinway Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 1490
Originally Posted By: Arctic_Mama
Ditto Sam. I can't believe people would justify cheating/lying/falsifying information as part of the 'game'. That is completely despicable. Just because you might get away with it doesn't make it wrong.

But I also believe in moral absolutes and absolute truth (and thus, the converse). I don't do 'fuzzy' on personal ethics. There are surprisingly few grey areas when it really gets down to it, but seemingly infinite things people will try to justify. I don't personally live that way if I can at all help it,.


It is the system that give people opportunity to lie. I agree that people should not lie. Unfortunately, most people will lie. If the system is designed in a way so that no opportunity for people to lie, we will not have this problem.

For example in piano audition, it is a good system. In an audition, either you can do it or not. Whatever you put in your application means NOTHING.

Writing essay is one of those stupid systems. If they really want to use essay as a measurement, design a process so that it is impossible for people to lie.


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#1756182 - 09/20/11 07:14 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Arctic_Mama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/09
Posts: 379
Loc: Alaska
I don't disagree with you there! I am a fan of tests and proctored essays for just that reason! Homework is part of the learning process that some may or may not need, but in all but a handful of classes things like homework and attendance should really be an individual responsibility based on what that student needs to learn - not performance indicators or tick-marks to give people a base grade of C if they turn in everything and show up (even if the work quality is sub-par).

Given that the system does allow people to game it if they choose, I can only hope that individual integrity and pride in personal achievement trumps the day. But I am not so foolish as to believe that is the case with a portion of the student body/applicant pool. Thus, at the end of the day I can only account for my own behavior and achievements.
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#1756197 - 09/20/11 07:45 PM Re: Would you? [Re: RonaldSteinway]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19342
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
The ultimate test is that when they are in the school or in the company. If they can do what they said they can, it should not be a problem. If not, they will get kicked out.
This is equivalent to those who think that it's not cheating if you don't get caught.

Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
Look at those amateur piano competitions application forms. Some of them asked for the pieces that one had played in the past. One can just lie left and right. Why don't they just listen to the performance video. It will answer everything.
What makes you think they don't look at the performance videos? It's perfectly reasonable that the competition would be interested in a pianist's repertoire and listening to their performance tape.

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#1756199 - 09/20/11 07:49 PM Re: Would you? [Re: pianoloverus]
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
The ultimate test is that when they are in the school or in the company. If they can do what they said they can, it should not be a problem. If not, they will get kicked out.
This is equivalent to those who think that it's not cheating if you don't get caught.


No, I think that he knows it's cheating. My understanding is that he thinks cheating is ok on tests and resumes, even if you get caught, as long as you can prove that you are actually capable of getting the real-life job done. His base assumption is that if the school knows you cheated, but you can prove in other ways that you really learned the material and are a stellar performer, then they won't/shouldn't kick you out; and, that even if you passed all the exams, if you can't use the material that you learned, then you won't be successful.

I do agree to a certain extent that actual application/use of learned knowledge/skills is far more important than the exams. But, like you, I don't agree with him that cheating is so broadly justified.


Edited by pianojerome (09/20/11 07:54 PM)
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#1756201 - 09/20/11 07:56 PM Re: Would you? [Re: RonaldSteinway]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19342
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
... Whatever you put in your application means NOTHING.
If the admissions people agreed with you they would have changed the admission application.


Originally Posted By: Ronald Steinway
Writing essay is one of those stupid systems. If they really want to use essay as a measurement, design a process so that it is impossible for people to lie.
It's not possible to make it impossible for someone one lie either on an applcation or anywhere else.

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#1756209 - 09/20/11 08:17 PM Re: Would you? [Re: pianojerome]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19342
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: pianojerome
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
The ultimate test is that when they are in the school or in the company. If they can do what they said they can, it should not be a problem. If not, they will get kicked out.
This is equivalent to those who think that it's not cheating if you don't get caught.


No, I think that he knows it's cheating. My understanding is that he thinks cheating is ok on tests and resumes, even if you get caught, as long as you can prove that you are actually capable of getting the real-life job done. His base assumption is that if the school knows you cheated, but you can prove in other ways that you really learned the material and are a stellar performer, then they won't/shouldn't kick you out; and, that even if you passed all the exams, if you can't use the material that you learned, then you won't be successful.
I think he's talking about proving your knowledge or ability after getting admitted which seems to be a completely different issue then getting admiited in the first place. No college should or would say something like "We know you cheated to get your grades, but we'll accept you anyway in the hope that you may prove you're smart enough to pass your courses at college". A college or an employer can't choose based on what happens in the future after they admit or hire someone.

They can choose on what they think might happen. For example, if a high school senior convinced them they were far more mature about academics then when they goofed off during junior year.


Edited by pianoloverus (09/21/11 08:24 AM)

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#1756264 - 09/20/11 11:23 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Dara Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/18/09
Posts: 1030
Loc: west coast island, canada
Off to a great start in school, this in the news today...

A kindergartener in rural Sweet Springs, Missouri, brought a bag of crystal meth and a crack pipe to school for show-and-tell, but an alert teacher kept the boy from sharing his treasure with others at the school, an official said on Tuesday.

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#1756271 - 09/21/11 12:10 AM Re: Would you? [Re: RonaldSteinway]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13789
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
It is the system that give people opportunity to lie. I agree that people should not lie. Unfortunately, most people will lie. If the system is designed in a way so that no opportunity for people to lie, we will not have this problem.


Having designed cheat-proof systems for classroom education, I can say that there are a few obstacles.

1) It's extremely difficult. Basically, preventing people from cheating requires constant observation. Especially in the age of smart phones, this is incredibly difficult. It took three of us to effectively manage a class of 75 people during in-class assignments and exams.

2) It's demoralizing. These systems send a clear message: "We do not trust you." It's a horrible message to send to those who really do approach their lives with integrity. It can also be a self-fulfilling prophecy - expect someone to cheat, and they will.

3) It acknowledges that cheating is part of the culture. And once cheating is part of the regular culture, people start to use that as justification for cheating. We've actually seen that in this thread: "Everyone else is, so I have to in order to not look stupid."

4) Even in auditions, it's very difficult. Let's say two pianists play Beethoven Op. 10#2 at roughly the same level of proficiency. It's entirely possible that for Pianist #1, this is the first Beethoven sonata he's learned, and he's been playing it for two years. He can't sight-read at all, doesn't have a disciplined practice schedule, has a weak theory background, and his social skills are lacking. But for Pianist #2, this is his 3rd Beethoven sonata, he has a well-rounded repertoire, good theory skills, is self-directed when it comes to practicing, and he's a joy to work with. He practices more efficiently, and is able to accomplish in 2 hours what the other accomplishes in 3.

But the audition committee only hears Beethoven Op. 10/2 on one day. It's entirely possible that Pianist #1 had a good night's sleep and played well. He also had a new suit and looked very "put together." But Pianist #2 had a bad flight, decided to skip ironing his clothes to grab an extra 30 minutes of sleep because he didn't get in until 2am, and his audition time was right after lunch.

So yes, auditions are "honest" in that a person can't fake good technique or musicianship, but auditions paint a very incomplete picture of a person's development. And when you're thinking about a career in music, how well you play is only a part of what will make you successful.
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#1756282 - 09/21/11 12:30 AM Re: Would you? [Re: pianojerome]
Ferdinand Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/23/07
Posts: 943
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: pianojerome
Originally Posted By: Arctic_Mama
But I also believe in moral absolutes and absolute truth (and thus, the converse). I don't do 'fuzzy' on personal ethics. There are surprisingly few grey areas when it really gets down to it, but seemingly infinite things people will try to justify. I don't personally live that way if I can at all help it,.


The "fuzzy" comes in when absolute values come into conflict with each other, as they often inevitably do. For example, someone earlier brought up a classic example: what if you were hiding innocent Jews, and the Nazis knocked on your door to ask if you are hiding Jews? Then you have a conflict of "absolute truths" -- it is unethical to lie, and it is unethical to cause the death of the innocent, but in this situation you will have to either lie or cause an innocent's death. One might say, "it is not unethical to lie if by doing so you are saving a life" -- but then it is no longer an absolute truth that it is unethical to lie. Then it is a conditional truth. Such moral conflicts are so commonplace; it's part of what makes life (and morality) so complex.

The example you give is not a compelling illustration of your point. Who would postulate in the first place that lying is absolutely unethical?
A less artificial case is Huckleberry Finn's predicament when his conscience reminds him it is a sin to steal property, so he decides to hand over the slave he has been helping run away to freedom. But his natural human sympathetic nature rebels against betraying his friend.

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#1756286 - 09/21/11 12:37 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19777
Loc: New York
Something that I don't think has been mentioned (although I haven't read every post thoroughly, so maybe I missed it) -- and which IMO blows a lot of the criticism of "maybe I would" out of the water:

What about all the students who have assignments done by THEIR PARENTS?

It's a lot. I know that it was a lot back in my day, including for some of the most outstanding students, and I admit occasionally (not often!) for me -- never entirely, but on a couple of occasions, mostly. I didn't know at the time that other students had this done, but I remember that later on, I heard from mutual friends that this happened for some kids, and as I looked back at some of what they put out, I realized it couldn't possibly have been done by them at the time.

To those of you who have expressed indignation at the "Maybe I would" idea: Do you have equal indignation about this other thing, which happens a lot? If not, why not? Because the parents aren't getting paid for it? Well, they sort of are, because if their kid does better in school, he/she has a better chance to get scholarships, which leaves the parents less in a position to have to contribute to the payment for the education.

I'm not saying this makes it OK to go ahead and write someone's paper for money, just that this is another thing that shows it's not as simple as many of you are saying. One way of looking at it, I would suggest, is that a student who doesn't have parents right there who might write his assignments for him is at an unfair disadvantage if he just follows the rules that you're saying are so simple.

I await the flames. smile
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